jaddc June 4, 2014 Share June 4, 2014 Can anyone explain why his PO4 is being "used up" so fast w/o PO4 removers? Phosphate is essential for biological processes. I'll give just two examples: 1) It is integral to our DNA. As cells divide (an essential component of growth and health) DNA needs to be copied. Phosphate is needed for DNA to be copied. 2) It is the energy source for life. When we eat food or plants harvest the sun, that fuel is converted into a molecule of ATP -- the "P" is for phosphate. So the food we eat is digested and absorbed. The sugar (glucose) is converted into ATP by glycolysis (this what happens when people say that they are burning calories). Our muscles use ATP to contract and do work. Our bodies cannot ingest ATP (otherwise GNC would have ATP powders). If you are a health nut, then you may have heard that eating simple sugars is the best way to get energy. This is because simple sugars are immediately used to make ATP, whereas complex sugars (e.g. the dreaded "carbs") are not as easily converted and may be stored as fat before it is burned. For our hobby -- the key is too introduce enough phosphate to support healthy husbandry, but not to excess. Like humans, the fish and non-synthetic inverts get all the phosphate they need from the fish food, and excrete the excess. Bacteria and coral absorb the phosphate from water fairly rapidly. Ideally, the phosphate concentration in the water is zero because it is locked up in the animals and bacteria. Often, that is not the case and then nuisance algae take advantage of the excess -- a situation all too familiar to us. So Eric's coral is liking the extra phosphate because now the cells can grow and divide. Pigments also need phosphate (directly or indirectly), so color should return. It is all about balance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
howaboutme June 4, 2014 Share June 4, 2014 So Eric's coral is liking the extra phosphate because now the cells can grow and divide. Pigments also need phosphate (directly or indirectly), so color should return. so are you saying his tank is so packed that all of the corals are using up the PO4 and not leaving any excess? I find that a bit hard to believe since there are examples of high PO4 (and NO3) tanks that are tightly packed and show no signs of stress and clearly not using up any excess PO4. sounds like eric's tank is an anomaly. thanks for the explanation! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaddc June 4, 2014 Share June 4, 2014 so are you saying his tank is so packed that all of the corals are using up the PO4 and not leaving any excess? I find that a bit hard to believe since there are examples of high PO4 (and NO3) tanks that are tightly packed and show no signs of stress and clearly not using up any excess PO4. sounds like eric's tank is an anomaly. thanks for the explanation! Well, yes, his tank is an anomaly which is why this unorthodox approach is being tried out. How it got this way is a mystery to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanM June 4, 2014 Share June 4, 2014 We should really just exchange water or skimmate or something. When I dose nitrate my phosphate goes down. He doses phosphate to get his nitrate down. Bizarre. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pizzaguy June 4, 2014 Author Share June 4, 2014 I enjoy being the oddball. Maybe I'll be a legend like steveoutlaw and the zoa toxin!! Lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
howaboutme June 4, 2014 Share June 4, 2014 We should really just exchange water or skimmate or something. When I dose nitrate my phosphate goes down. He doses phosphate to get his nitrate down. Bizarre. I just restarted my KNO3 dosing this week..algae is starting to rear its head... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gmerek2 June 4, 2014 Share June 4, 2014 Yea that's odd ball! I would have guessed the extra skimming, flow and new fuge light was doing the trick lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Origami June 4, 2014 Share June 4, 2014 Glad to see some progress, Eric. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pizzaguy June 4, 2014 Author Share June 4, 2014 Thank you. For what it's worth and I don't know why but my water was kinda cloudy for months before we started all this. As of yesterday it's back to crystal clear. So much better on the eyes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davelin315 June 5, 2014 Share June 5, 2014 Cloudy sounds like bacterial blooms - perhaps the biopellets were producing excess bacteria and the skimmer wasn't removing them. Can't recall if you took these offline or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pizzaguy June 5, 2014 Author Share June 5, 2014 Bio pellets are still on. They never really done anything for me as of yet. Likely because of the no po4 same reason chaeto has never grown or died. Just stagnant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davelin315 June 5, 2014 Share June 5, 2014 I have been following this thread a lot as it seems to mimic what my tank has gone through - very high nitrates (off the charts and unmeasurable with color test kits) and numerous solutions tried to no avail. Seemed to be caused by an imbalance, most likely lack of phosphates due to aggressive phosphate removal. I tried a "remote" deep sand bed, dosing carbon, using biopellets, various macroalgaes, nothing worked. The nitrates are still high despite losing all of my fish due to disease probably well over a year ago and doing several 125 gallon water changes and they won't budge. My though process is that I'll tear it down and put the rock into a tub and dose ammonia and phosphates to get the bacteria back in balance and then set it up again when I have found a solution. If the rock won't balance itself out, the next step will be to bleach it all and start over from scratch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pizzaguy June 5, 2014 Author Share June 5, 2014 DAvelin I'm curious what are your po4 readings now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davelin315 June 5, 2014 Share June 5, 2014 Haven't tested in a long time but may break out the test kits tonight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Rhoads June 6, 2014 Share June 6, 2014 Wow, glad to see the progress on this one! Also, thanks to everyone who is contributing; I have learned a great deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lnevo July 9, 2014 Share July 9, 2014 So where are you now? I saw your poll and you mention your results are good. Let's hear the follow up? Where are your phosphate and nitrates at now? How much/how often dosing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pizzaguy July 9, 2014 Author Share July 9, 2014 Well good and bad. The good. Coral color and growth is off the charts. Lps are huge zoas are reproducing at an alarming rate. Chaeto might be showing a smidgen of growth but not much. Anenome's are off the charts especially my rainbow bubble tip. Now for the bad. The dang nitrates are not budging. Approximately 3 weeks ago they were close to 80 so I did a series of water changes totaling around 200 to 250 gallons brought them back down to around 20. Tested last night and there back to 60 to 70 but what's weird is there's absolutely no signs of stress to any sps this time. It seems that the more po4 I dose the happier my coral. I started at 1 ml a day and I'm now currently at 5 ml a day as of today. Gonna speed the process up just a tad to try and get this balance right in theory. Gonna start adding 1 additional ml to the dose every 3 days until 1 of 2 things is gonna happen. Either the nitrates will start to come down and balance this mess out or the plague will happen. Algae outbreak of some kind. Either way something is gonna happen much quicker over the next few weeks. I'm totally exhausted with water changes. Will follow with a few fts from my phone this evening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pizzaguy July 9, 2014 Author Share July 9, 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zygote2k July 9, 2014 Share July 9, 2014 overcrowded much? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanM July 9, 2014 Share July 9, 2014 I've always liked that cave in the middle of your lagoon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pizzaguy July 9, 2014 Author Share July 9, 2014 overcrowded much? I've still got a few spots left rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lnevo July 9, 2014 Share July 9, 2014 Looks really good!!! Whatever it is its working great. I would have expected a ton of STN/RTN at 80 nitrates...at least that was my experience in the past. My phosphates are at 0 and nitrates between 8-16, so not quite as bad as your situation, would love to see it come down a few ppm. When I took GFO offline, my phosphates went up and nothing changed on my nitrates either. I'll probably start dosing some prodibio again which seemed to help for a while... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanM July 9, 2014 Share July 9, 2014 Maybe you should test your air for nitrates or something. I still don't get where it's all coming from. You seem to have eliminated all obvious sources of it. Didn't someone here have a cat peeing in the sump from time to time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lnevo July 9, 2014 Share July 9, 2014 Or mystery fish feeding children? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mling July 9, 2014 Share July 9, 2014 ....... The dang nitrates are not budging. Approximately 3 weeks ago they were close to 80 so I did a series of water changes totaling around 200 to 250 gallons brought them back down to around 20. Tested last night and there back to 60 to 70 but what's weird is there's absolutely no signs of stress to any sps this time. It seem.... I too have the very some problem, High nitrates ( almost identical to yours ) but SPS are ok. Is high nitrates = bad SPS a myth ? If I remember correctly, I think Paul up north has nitrates in the 30ppms and his SPS are not suffering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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