nitrate think tank I'm at my wits end

[pizzaguy]

I'll double check it again and see what it says. I didn't see anywhere that it said what to use or how to make the chemical part

[Origami]

I'll double check it again and see what it says. I didn't see anywhere that it said what to use or how to make the chemical part

I had to look twice, too. It's on the left hand side of the calculator.

 

Sent from my LG-V510 using Tapatalk

 

 

[AlanM]

If he's going to dose phosphate, should he get some MB7 or Dr Tims or live sand or all of the above since everyone seems to be working on the assumption that he has bacteria in his tank that can reduce phosphate but not nitrate?

 

Even if he aggressively reduced phosphate in the beginning, I don't see why it would stay reduced for the last 6 months that he hasn't been running GFO unless something grew in there that continues to export it. The water doesn't have a memory of the GFO last run in there 6 months ago. And I don't see how stripping phosphate in the first place could cause such a thing to grow. Seems more likely that he would have starved out the stuff that would remove phosphate and would see it shoot up after pulling the GFO off because nothing is using it.

[Origami]

Stripping the tank of phosphate with GFO only occurs if the use is ongoing. It shouldn't be an issue with its initial use if that's what he did. . It's confusing as, somewhere back in the thread, I thought that he mentioned trying to use GFO to remove nitrates. That led me to conclude that, in this battle with accumulating nitrates, that he was continuing to use GFO in aggressive fashion.

 

MB7 probably contains aerobic bacteria and little, if any, anaerobic bacteria. Thus, it's unlikely to help with nitrate accumulation.

 

I would still try dosing phosphates gradually and restoring the fuge with macro. The macro will then take advantage of the available phosphates and nitrates (which are fertilizer essentially), bringing both down. Be cautious with the phosphates, Eric. If you're not, you may not only see the macro take off, you may also get an algae bloom in the display tank. So introduce it slowly.

[AlanM]

He said later one that he hasn't run GFO for the past 6 months.  Maybe the GFO for nitrate was a typo?  I just dont understand where all the PO4 could possibly have been going for the past 6 months.

[AlanM]

Just had a thought.  Maybe his phosphate checker doesn't work and he's actually loaded with both PO4 and NO3 since his only export at the moment is skimmer and siphoning detritus.

[Origami]

Just had a thought.  Maybe his phosphate checker doesn't work and he's actually loaded with both PO4 and NO3 since his only export at the moment is skimmer and siphoning detritus.

If he were loaded with PO4 and NO3, his macro would grow and his tank would likely be overrun with hair algae.

 

Free PO4 rarely shows up because it's rapidly taken up by algae. The exception might be under nitrate-limited or light-limited conditions

[jaddc]

Jaddc yes any help will be greatly appreciated.

On the fuge chaeto growth I have some t5 freshwater plant bulbs. Will that work much better then the 20 K 150 watt halide I'm currently using?

I added a second sro xs160 skimmer to the tank last night because I believe my skimmer is undersized.

I do want to go bare bottom as much as possible so I can increase the flow so I'm gonna start removing slowly starting with tonight's 100 gallon water change.

I'm gonna order the phosphate powder tommorow so that will be on its way and please I'm no chemist so anyone who can tell me exactly how I should do this please do because without your help I won't even attempt it.

I have cut the feedings back to once a day and not so much frozen food.

 

Anytime. You can PM or we can work it out here when you are ready to go. Do you have a weighing scale? If so does it read in metric or conventional?

 

I would optimize/increase the flow through chaeto before messing with the lights.

[jaddc]

If he's going to dose phosphate, should he get some MB7 or Dr Tims or live sand or all of the above since everyone seems to be working on the assumption that he has bacteria in his tank that can reduce phosphate but not nitrate?

 

 

I think he has enough flora in the tank right now. They will start multiplying and growing once things get into balance.

[jaddc]

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/blog/fish-poop-is-great-coral-food

 

Neat article on the ratio of nutrients.

Edited May 16, 2014 by jaddc

[pizzaguy]

I didnt use gfo for nitrates I just ran it from day one under the assumption I had to. I took gfo offline when I started the bio pellets.

I ordered the phosphate powder today so yes I'll be needing dosing recommendations soon. I have almost a 200 gallon capacity.

So ill get the flow right on the macro thus evening and wait on changing lights.

Should I continue the bio pellets or not?

Gonna change another 75 gallons tonight and vacuum sump where there's a little detritus and take some more sand from the dead zones behind rocks.

[pizzaguy]

I'll check on the scale. I know we have a small one but not positive what it measures

[pizzaguy]

Kilograms,pounds,grams,ounces

This is what my scale will measure

[jaddc]

OK -- let's crowd source this to make sure my math is right.

 

Your tank is 200 gallons. Let's be conservative and say that the rock and equipment displaces 50 gallons, leaving 150 gallons of water. 

 

1) 150 gallons equals 567 kilograms of water. Math check:  

1 gallon = 3.78 liters

150 gallons = 567 liters

since water has a density of 1 kilogram/liter

150 gallons = 567 kilograms of water

 

Let's round down to 500 kilograms for ease. 

 

According to Holmes-Farley, reef tank phosphates concentration should be less than 0.03 ppm (milligrams phosphate/kilogram water). I propose that you add 0.01 ppm phosphate per dose. This increase should be detectable using phosphate test kits, but not exceed recommended amounts. Now, how much K2HPO4 do you need to add to raise phosphate levels by 0.01 ppm?

 

Adding 5 milligrams of K2HPO4 to 500 kilograms of water will increase the K2HPO4 concentration by 0.010 ppm. Math check:

500 milligrams/500 kilograms = 1 milligram/kilogram = 1 ppm

5 milligrams/500 kilograms = 0.01 milligram/kilogram = 0.01 ppm

 

OK, now we need to make the stock K2HPO4 solution. We want to dose as little volume as possible. I propose dosing 5 mg of K2HPO4 in 1 milliliter. That means that you should dissolve 5 grams of K2HPO4 into 1 liter (1 kilogram) of RO/DI water. Math check:

5 grams K2HPO4 / 1 liter of water = 5 milligrams K2HPO4 / 1 milliliter of water (incidentally, 5 grams / kilogram = 5 ppt)

 

How does that look?

 

Dosing procedure:

1) Measure phosphates and nitrates daily at the same time of day.

2) After measurement, add 1 milliliter of the K2HPO4 stock into the sump. 

3) Wait about 10 minutes and measure phosphate levels again to note change.

4) If no change in phosphate levels, then wait until the next day to add another dose (after measuring phosphates and nitrates). This is the most likely scenario because I was conservative in my assumptions.

5) If phosphate levels do increase after the dose, then do not dose again until phosphate levels fall below detection. This will give the biopellets and cheato time to work.

 

We can think about the trending test results together. We are shooting for the N:P ratio of about 20:1.  

 

Except for increasing flow on the chaeto (can there be too much flow on chaeto? Not sure.), I would keep everything else the same for now. I would also be prepared to test nitrate and phosphate daily. After adding a single dose of phosphate, it is critical to monitor your levels over time to see what happens. 

 

I would also be sure to have a water change ready to go in case of emergency.

 

Jeff

Edited May 16, 2014 by jaddc

[AlanM]

5 grams/liter sounds great for a concentration but then dosing 1ml per day sounds really conservative.  I would have gone for something that you know is measurable since he doesn't have the ULR checker.  He has the normal range checker.  I'd go for 10ml of that solution to get 0.1ppm phosphate initially which he can surely measure, but which isn't totally out of the ballpark for healthy tanks and also isn't enough to really hurt anything.  Definitely enough to grow algae, though.  Maybe a maintenance dose of 0.01ppm later?

 

I was wondering if you were going to propose doing enough P to match with the 20:1 ratio for nitrogen, so if he had 80ppm nitrogen you were going to add 4ppm phosphate and see what happened. 8)

[Origami]

1.0264 sg saltwater is 1.0234 kg/liter at 77F. Density of fresh water at 77F is about 0.997 kg/l. This may not change your numbers much.

 

Phosphate is 95/174 (or 55%) of the weight of the K2HPO4, assuming that the compound is not hydrated. Increase your K2HPO4 appropriately to get the desired PPM in the stock solution. The solution recipe above will be weak by about half.

 

Aren't there instructions on the calculator at the link above that tell you how to make the stock solution? I thought that I saw something like that there.

[pizzaguy]

Wow I'm gonna stay out of this conversation. This is way over my head. Thank you all for helping figure this out because none of this is English to me.

[pizzaguy]

On a good note this seems to be a 1 in a million thing for aquarist to do so hopefully we all learn something new and out of the ordinary from this experiment.

[Origami]

That link was here, by the way.

 

http://buddendo.home.xs4all.nl/aquarium/redfield_eng.htm

 

I've not bothered to check it, though.

[jaddc]

Tom -- The difference in densities don't matter too much with the assumptions we are making (580 kg versus 565) and 500 kg is great for easy math. Great point about the PO4 percentage -- change made below to double the concentration. The calculator allows for different concentrations of stock solution.

Alan -- Another good point about dosing. Maybe I am being too conservative, and he definitely won't see the change on the normal meter. But we may want to start slow and just add increasing doses of K2HPO4, if needed. I worry about dumping in a lot of phosphate and causing an algal bloom. If the theory is right, then he'll probably observe lowering nitrate levels before seeing phosphate levels rise. I'll leave it to discussion -- is this too conservative?

 

================================

OK -- let's crowd source this to make sure my math is right.

 

Your tank is 200 gallons. Let's be conservative and say that the rock and equipment displaces 50 gallons, leaving 150 gallons of water. 

 

1) 150 gallons equals 567 kilograms of water. Math check:  

1 gallon = 3.78 liters

150 gallons = 567 liters

since water has a density of 1 kilogram/liter

150 gallons = 567 kilograms of water

 

Let's round down to 500 kilograms for ease. 

 

According to Holmes-Farley, reef tank phosphates concentration should be less than 0.03 ppm (milligrams phosphate/kilogram water). I propose that you add 0.01 ppm phosphate per dose. This increase should be detectable using phosphate test kits, but not exceed recommended amounts. Now, how much K2HPO4 do you need to add to raise phosphate levels by 0.01 ppm?

 

Adding 5 milligrams of K2HPO4 to 500 kilograms of water will increase the K2HPO4 concentration by 0.010 ppm. Math check:

500 milligrams HPO4 / 500 kilograms = 1 milligram/kilogram = 1 ppm

5 milligrams HPO4 / 500 kilograms = 0.01 milligram/kilogram = 0.01 ppm

 

OK, now we need to make the stock K2HPO4 solution. We want to dose as little volume as possible. I propose dosing 10 mg of K2HPO4 (10 milligrams of K2HPO4 * 55% ~= 5 milligrams HPO4)in 1 milliliter, initially. That means that you should dissolve 10 grams of K2HPO4 into 1 liter (1 kilogram) of RO/DI water. Math check:

10 grams K2HPO4 / 1 liter of water = 10 milligrams K2HPO4 / 1 milliliter of water ~= 5 milligrams HPO4(incidentally, 5 grams / kilogram = 5 ppt)

 

How does that look?

 

Dosing procedure:

1) Measure phosphates and nitrates daily at the same time of day.

2) After measurement, add 1 milliliter of the K2HPO4 stock into the sump. 

3) Wait about 10 minutes and measure phosphate levels again to note change.

4) If no change in phosphate levels, then wait until the next day to add another dose (after measuring phosphates and nitrates). This is the most likely scenario because I was conservative in my assumptions.

5) If phosphate levels do increase after the dose, then do not dose again until phosphate levels fall below detection. This will give the biopellets and cheato time to work.

 

We can think about the trending test results together. We are shooting for the N:P ratio of about 20:1.  

 

Except for increasing flow on the chaeto (can there be too much flow on chaeto? Not sure.), I would keep everything else the same for now. I would also be prepared to test nitrate and phosphate daily. After adding a single dose of phosphate, it is critical to monitor your levels over time to see what happens. 

 

I would also be sure to have a water change ready to go in case of emergency.

 

Jeff

[jaddc]

 

 

I was wondering if you were going to propose doing enough P to match with the 20:1 ratio for nitrogen, so if he had 80ppm nitrogen you were going to add 4ppm phosphate and see what happened. 8)

 

  lol 

[Origami]

If a single dose does not result in a measurable change in the phosphate concentration, he may have to increase the dosage (possibly up to 5x) to see the effect. Once he gets a measurable change, he can sit back and watch the phosphate level drop from consumption. The important thing here is to get to where you actually have a measurable amount of phosphates in the system that you can then watch decline as the biological filtration kicks in. Measure the nitrate levels as well and record the data for both as well as the size and date/time of the doses delivered. It would be very interesting to see how this all plays out.

[jaddc]

According to the link that Tom posted (nice read), to get the Redfield ratio, the formula is nitrate/phosphate * 1.53. To ideal range is 10-20 with spot-on being 16.

 

Example:

Nitrates = 0.25 ppm

Phosphates = 0.02 ppm.

 

Redfield ratio = (0.25/0.02)*(1.53) = 19

 

Now, I don't advocate chasing this ratio to insanity. But the point is that the further the ratio deviates from this 10-20 range, the more likely that you'll encounter problems.

[jaddc]

If a single dose does not result in a measurable change in the phosphate concentration, he may have to increase the dosage (possibly up to 5x) to see the effect. Once he gets a measurable change, he can sit back and watch the phosphate level drop from consumption. The important thing here is to get to where you actually have a measurable amount of phosphates in the system that you can then watch decline as the biological filtration kicks in. Measure the nitrate levels as well and record the data for both as well as the size and date/time of the doses delivered. It would be very interesting to see how this all plays out.

 Spot on as usual Tom.

[AlanM]

If a single dose does not result in a measurable change in the phosphate concentration, he may have to increase the dosage (possibly up to 5x) to see the effect. Once he gets a measurable change, he can sit back and watch the phosphate level drop from consumption. The important thing here is to get to where you actually have a measurable amount of phosphates in the system that you can then watch decline as the biological filtration kicks in. Measure the nitrate levels as well and record the data for both as well as the size and date/time of the doses delivered. It would be very interesting to see how this all plays out.

 

I think Tom has it almost right. 

 

I think a better solution is that he should just move the whole thing to my house so he can stop doing those water changes all the time.

 

Seriously, maybe you should ask around to see if anyone has an extra red/blue spectrum fuge light?  I'd let you borrow my red/blue d120, but I only have the one and I use it full time on my fuge.