nitrate think tank I'm at my wits end

[icsparks]

Here is an interesting link that I found about a high nutrient tank with SPS corals.

 

http://www.ultimatereef.net/forums/showthread.php?t=555963

[YHSublime]

Here is an interesting link that I found about a high nutrient tank with SPS corals.

 

http://www.ultimatereef.net/forums/showthread.php?t=555963

 

That's the way I feel my tank is heading.

[ctenophore]

I think I read through this entire thread, but I don't recall seeing what test kits you're using and how you're sure they're accurate. Making the phosphate solution should give you a good reference formula, but what about nitrate? It would be nice to have your test kits calibrated against a known reference if you are going to quantify your results with nitrate and phosphate water tests.

 

On another note, I don't think your skimmer is undersized. It may be responsible for phosphate being low compared to nitrates though. I recall Ken Feldman's skimmer research suggesting that skimmers are more effective at phosphate removal than nitrate. Not sure if this would throw Redfield radio out of whack in such a short time though.

[pizzaguy]

I use salifert and yes I know api as a back up. Also you red sea for mg cal. Kh.

For phosphate I use a hanna meter not the ulr version just the regular. Surf and turf is gonna come over with the ulr to see if there any trace of po4 at all.

On another note I have removed about 30 to 40% of the sand bed so far with my daily water changes. Trying not to change anymore water until the phosphate solution is here and new ro filters come in.

[gmerek2]

Mine were over 100 nitrates for a long time. I had only LPS and it was alive but suffering slightly. I did everything everyone suggested but didnt want to do the adding phosphate thing. When I mess with something new like that I usually kill a bunch of stuff off before I figure it out. It cost me a lot of money but I was determined to get rid of the trates. My skimmer was undersized and I didnt know it. I cant believe how much the new one pulls out now. Added 30 gal chaeto fuge. The extra water dilutes more and the 30gallons can add a little live rock and the extra light feeds more denitrifying bacteria. Everyone says must have high flow must have strong lights but its really like fine tuning a guitar. I went though a few lights before I found a good one. Some were actually too strong and fryed the top layer of chaeto (could also be a sign of not enough flow around the top area). Some were too weak and only the top layer grew super slow. I have noticed if I beam a strong powerhead at chaeto nutrients accumulate in that area and that area actually doesnt grow and only grows green hair. I like good solid slow flow evenly though the whole ball. You will know when you hit that sweet spot that stuff grows wildly. I increased flow in DT but it was slow flow. Take some fish out as a last resort but very good idea.

[pizzaguy]

I'm pretty sure without going back through all of this tom was saying if in fact I have next to no phosphates then chaeto probably won't grow.

[gmerek2]

I'm not sure how much I agree with this as I have tried discontinuing GFO and grew same rate. I discontinued fir different reasons though. There are people with massive Green hair algae problem with really low phosphates. The GHA sucks it up. If your GFO can find phosphates to absorb your chaeto will. Tangs are poop machines and mine are pigs. I look at fish list in a lot of really successful SPS tanks and a lot of times they don't have any tangs at all. If the phosphate thing doesn't work try borrowing a friends larger skimmer for a few weeks, tinker with better chaeto growing .i now have undetectable nitrates. By using proven facts about nutrient export that wamas members suggested. Tinkering with phosphates is a great idea for chaeto try it! But for my tank with nitrates that high I had to approach nutrient export aggressively with multiple strategies.

[pizzaguy]

I did add the second skimmer. I know avast knows there skimmer better than I do but I figured it wouldn't hurt to try. So is 2 medium skimmers as efficient as one larger skimmer? This setup is temporary until I try this phosphate dosing out.

[Sharkey18]

Have you tested nitrates since you removed some of the sand? I would be concerned that removing sand might actually temporarily increase your nitrates and phosphates as things get stirred up. 

[pizzaguy]

Nitrates are around 20 right now. Gonna change another 50 or so tonight to be safe.

[Sharkey18]

20 is not too bad. 

[jaddc]

Yeah I agree.

 

It looks like removing the sand and doing water changes is having a positive affect. Hold off on phosphate dosing and keep doing what you are doing.

[pizzaguy]

Here's the problem. This is what I've been doing for a year and a half. This is the point of dosing phosphates. I need to lower nitrates naturally not by using a box of salt every week. I've used 2 boxes of salt in 2 weeks just to bring nitrates down which it did. But if I do like I did a month ago and stop changing water I'll be right back to 80 nitrates in less then a month. So let's stay on the dosing path please.

[jaddc]

Here's the problem. This is what I've been doing for a year and a half. This is the point of dosing phosphates. I need to lower nitrates naturally not by using a box of salt every week. I've used 2 boxes of salt in 2 weeks just to bring nitrates down which it did. But if I do like I did a month ago and stop changing water I'll be right back to 80 nitrates in less then a month. So let's stay on the dosing path please.

 

I hear you.

 

But aside from the water changes, you have

1. Increased your skimmer capacity.

2. Increased the flow to your chaeto and trying a different grow light (or planning to).

3. Decided to remove the sand bed which will allow you to increase your tank flow which will keep the detritus from building up in dead zones. 

 

All good things that have been proven to work to keep nutrient numbers down. In my opinion, dosing phosphate is an unorthodox last ditch effort, but you may have turned a corner here without doing so.

 

I'm not saying do large scale water changes forever. After your sand is gone (which is tough to do without WC's), stop the large WC's and closely monitor your nitrates. If you keep posting your numbers here, we can help before it gets out of hand again. 

 

Definitely make the phosphate stock solution so you have it on hand without scrambling to make it.

Edited May 18, 2014 by jaddc

[pizzaguy]

Ok I'll stuck with this for a few weeks and keep updating. I'll have the po4 here when and if needed.

[ctenophore]

Agreed re: jaddc's 3 points above. Too many changes to be able to say which one helps. But you could use the phosphate solution to make a two (or three) point calibration system. Make dilutions so you can test for 0.01, 0.1 and 1ppm. If your test kit can reproduce those findings twice, then I'd say it's accurate. Or at least precise.

Would be really nice to make a three point nitrate reference solution in the same way.

[pizzaguy]

Little update. Phosphate powder is here if needed. Gonna change approx. 70 gallons tomorrow and remove more sand which will be at least 50 % or more removed so far. Only problem is a lot of it is under rocks so I wonder be getting crazy close and causing an avalanche. Although I will be completely clearing to the glass all the dead zones where I can't reach on a regular basis and there's not much flow so I'm sure there is plenty of detritus there.

[pizzaguy]

Lost a few colonies of sps. A lot of browned out stuff is starting to color back up and pe is coming back. After tomorrow's water change and sand removal I will test everything and stop wc for a week or two closely monitoring everything. If I start going backwards again then we will assess the situation again.

[YHSublime]

I'm rooting for you bud, thanks for documenting!

[gmerek2]

+1 jaddc on nutrient export! Sorry for your losses but you can do it! It also helps to consider nutrient import. I think I read earlier that less food isn't an option. So there are a few tricks that I'm sure you know about but I'll hit on them anyway. I could be wrong but I find that frozen and live has less of an impact on water quality. I still feed some flake 2-3 times a week. I don't like pellets because they sink to the bottom before fish get to them and go right to unreachable spots under rock to decay. Also instead of dumping large amounts of food in at one time, dump in a little, let fish eat it up then dump on more. This allows more time for the food to get ate instead of getting filtered out in the unreachable places of live rock. Lastly I'm sure you know about soaking frozens to thaw in RODI or vitamins. It pulls out the gunk in the frozen then strain it to run the gunk down the drain. Basically The frozen is froze in a juice that is high in nutrients that you want to strain out. If you don't have a strainer I can post a pic of mine on here it works great.

[jaddc]

Good advice. The only thing I'll add is that there is little need to strain good quality frozen food. I always liked this article:

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2012/3/chemistry

[gmerek2]

Great article wow. Probably am wasting time soaking and straining. But there is a thick nasty juice that runs off the frozen food can't the nutrients from that add up over time?

[ctenophore]

Great article wow. Probably am wasting time soaking and straining. But there is a thick nasty juice that runs off the frozen food can't the nutrients from that add up over time?

Corals and microfauna love that stuff.  Feather worms, etc.  They in turn go crazy and spawn, adding more high quality food to the tank.

[Jason Rhoads]

Not sure if this was mentioned yet in the thread, but have you considered putting a remote DSB online yet?  A 5 gallon bucket filled with a $5 bag of sand could fix your problem with nitrates.  

[GraffitiSpotCorals]

We mix up the straining process, one day we strain and soak food in selcon and vitamins, only in order to get the stuff soaked into the food well. The next we feed the whole cubes.