flowerseller December 9, 2011 Share December 9, 2011 i think deep down you do ybenormal 138 One other thing I hope comes from this thread. people could learn to count and when to use there, their, and they're. As another small family business owner, you might save a buck on the internet but you don't always get what you think you do. My industry is upside down with telemarketers charging 33% more for the same service we provide. They lure you in and sell you cheap flowers and then charge you out the wazoo to send them. Call your local florist, we need you too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YBeNormal December 9, 2011 Share December 9, 2011 I agree Chip. Question: Do florists carry PB&J sammiches? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YBeNormal December 9, 2011 Share December 9, 2011 One other thing I hope comes from this thread. people could learn to count and when to use there, their, and they're. Oh, the irony... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vadim December 9, 2011 Share December 9, 2011 One other thing I hope comes from this thread. people could learn to count and when to use there, their, and they're. As another small family business owner, you might save a buck on the internet but you don't always get what you think you do. My industry is upside down with telemarketers charging 33% more for the same service we provide. They lure you in and sell you cheap flowers and then charge you out the wazoo to send them. Call your local florist, we need you too. another thing i hope comes from this thread. people could learn how to pay attention to detail, and if people look really hard, they would know that the number 138 was the actual post number. Better yet, pay attention to (their, there, they're) own failing business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jan December 9, 2011 Share December 9, 2011 ^ See!?!? Let me know when the lifeguard calls the adult swim. Goodnight! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbartco December 9, 2011 Share December 9, 2011 SInce this is in BRK's forum, they can mod whatever they want. I do not think they need to take the time to weed out those trying to reach 200. If nothing contructive, let this go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocko918 December 9, 2011 Share December 9, 2011 another thing i hope comes from this thread. people could learn how to pay attention to detail, and if people look really hard, they would know that the number 138 was the actual post number. Better yet, pay attention to (their, there, they're) own failing business. talk about a low blow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rioreef December 9, 2011 Share December 9, 2011 Perfection... Someone mentioned that we "know"this is an expensive hobby before we get into it. This is in no way an attack. My friend, your wrong. Many of us have a harsh intro into this beautiful hobby. That would have been me. The best advice you can give to anyone wanting to start a marine/reef tank is...do your research, read, and when you are done, read some more, ask questions, etc. This is where you find out about the 'cost' and gain the knowledge to have a successful tank. In my opinion, the best knowledge about this hobby when starting is patience, don't rush it and you will have a more successful system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coral Hind December 9, 2011 Share December 9, 2011 ^ That is some very good advice. I think most newbies under estimate the amount of time and money this hobby can consume which is why most people are only in the hobby for a few years and then bow out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnybv December 9, 2011 Author Share December 9, 2011 (edited) Keep it some what on topic. we edited out some of the post that say (post #) Nothing else. Edited December 9, 2011 by johnnybv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBVette December 9, 2011 Share December 9, 2011 ^ That is some very good advice. I think most newbies under estimate the amount of time and money this hobby can consume which is why most people are only in the hobby for a few years and then bow out. I know I spend 2-3 hours a week working on my tank doing who knows what. I never expected to have to spend that much time once the tank was established; and I think most people go in somewhat underestimating. And Johnny could tell you how much I have spent (almost everything has come from him) but dont let me see the number as I would be very scared to know how much I have invested here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypertech December 9, 2011 Share December 9, 2011 FWIW, some good did come from this. I didn't know BRK keeps a stock list on their website and I didn't know they had an email list, which I am now signed up for. ...... and, post 150 will be mine again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SunWyrm December 9, 2011 Share December 9, 2011 I can't speak for everybody but I was trying to have a good discussion on the best way forward for the lfs'. I went as far as to try to make sure I wasn't attacking anybody (I understand the use of Ignorant was pretty harsh, and I apologize for that phrasing). I really feel this economic climate is a great time for the lfs' to experiment with new means of attracting new customers and keeping the ones they have. I KNOW many of the stores including brk are doing just that and I applaud them for the effort. I feel like this discussion is the closest fit I could find for this content unless I was to make a brand new thread. I have received no feedback on possibly working with anybody (stores or wamas members) on developing a front end for their store, maybe going as far as developing a new page that is linked to a database. THAT would be something I could get behind, and I don't think people need to profit from it. I have received no feedback (positive or negative) on whether a return policy for repeat customers is possible with regards to B&M stores. I understand the hesitance, but it might give somebody more confidence when deciding where to shop, and like others have pointed out, you have healthy fish, there is little to no worry about some of these people losing fish if they have shown an ability to introduce it to the tank properly and good water levels. I know some people (me included) have been complaining about the distance from the store, and is there a possibility of having a delivery service? I understand if this isn't feasible, but is there any way to make it work? Like having a system where you deliver to the south and east of your location on mon/thu, and west and north on tue/fri, that way instead of going to each individual store you can just use a single employee to drive for about a full day and charge between all orders a delivery fee that covers the 8 hours and gas. This doesn't have to be profitable in itself, just break even, and it will allow more people to order from you even if they can't make it to your location. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypertech December 9, 2011 Share December 9, 2011 Mr coral did do a delivery service in the area - free even. Priority mail was basically overnight, but now the post office is slowing down service and temps are dropping. I do wonder how it worked out for him if it drove sales, etc. I got 5 frags delivered to my door for $50 and was happy with the experience overall. I'd probably do the order again if I could beat this stupid algae. I'm not adding any new corals - especially small ones - till I've won the algaepocalypse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBVette December 9, 2011 Share December 9, 2011 you have an algae problem and you are getting rid of your tang. darn you are screwed. lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnybv December 9, 2011 Author Share December 9, 2011 WAMAS members, I have been tempted several times to shut this thread down, please STOP the personal attacks! The purpose of this thread was to bring to the clubs attention that your LFS's need your loyal business. Go to the stores that are close enough to you and give you great service and fair prices, that is all I was trying to impress upon the club that helped get BRK started. I have pulled a few good ideas from this thread, a few unreasonable ones and a few useless ones. Its all good, keep it positive, know about our stocklist and email list for specials and lets all get along. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WallyBackm December 9, 2011 Share December 9, 2011 Here's my $.02, not that it was solicited. While I am sympathetic to many people's charges that businesses need to adapt, etc., and charge less prices, this simply does not apply to BRK. Their fish prices are normally CHEAPER than anything I can find online, and the fish are generally much healthier. There are other things at work here, including the economy, of course, but BRK is an outlier in my opinion. Its prices are competitive with internet operations. Johnny, again my unsolicited advice, take it fwiw. As others have commented, BRK is good distance from many, including myself (1.5 hours round trip in the car). I am highly motivated to make this trip if something new has landed in your store, or if there is a sale, even a nominal one. Increased internet marketing (I see a lot tailored to the koi crew) would certainly motivate me more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chad December 9, 2011 Share December 9, 2011 Obviously this is a subject that garners strong and passionate opinions, especially in these tough economic times. And rightfully so, many livelihoods depend upon it; whether directly, as with shop owners, or indirectly, as with consumers deciding at which business to award their patronage. As with any such topic, emotions run high and implied meanings are easily misconstrued. It is always best to fully think through both what you mean and to try to understand how others may interpret your words. It is with that filter that I live my written life. Some good viewpoints have been brought up here and it is an interesting, important topic to discuss. Ultimately, I don't think there is a right answer as it is a question of value. And of course, value has a unique and personal meaning for everyone. In most cases, I value real experiences and relationships over impersonal, two-dimensional interactions and descriptions. The real world inspires lasting emotion: that feeling of awe instilled upon me when I saw my first reef tank, how that bike felt like it was an extension of my will on that ride, how my silverware felt in my hand, and on and on. As a result, I walk into a store to make my purchases unless I have a compelling reason not to. Sometimes the monetary cost of my visit is a little higher, often it is not. I am not a business owner, instead I am an engineer translating physical world understandings into human interactions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beatle December 10, 2011 Share December 10, 2011 (edited) Where people choose to shop is based on where they find value in the experience. Selection and price dominate the value of an internet shop. The personal advice, instant gratification, and the ability to see what they are about to purchase are the advantages of buying locally. Prioritize what you find valuable and buy from wherever delivers those things. To think of purchasing from a LFS as charity doesn't seem right to me. Conversely, to expect something for nothing from a business is not right either. Perhaps the market won't bear as many LFS as it has in the past, but I believe the cream will still rise to the top and the best stores will remain open. Where does a person who buys most of their equipment or livestock second hand fall in the spectrum? Edited December 10, 2011 by beatle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reefoholic December 10, 2011 Share December 10, 2011 Let me say that this thread is one of the many reasons I love WAMAS and the people here. My 2 cents: 1st cent : I live in DC and honestly, there are no good LFS around which has the dry goods or live stock selection that I can order online. Most of the times, I end up borrowing a friends car to drive for hours to get to a decent LFS with knowledgable and helpful people. Most of the LFS around (at least WAMAS sponsors) employ friendly people who know their stuff. I would much rather buy from a store with real people who I can consult and get advice from than an online vendor. I also support the "vendor current stock list" thread that was implemented recently on WAMAS so that I wouldn't drive for nothing for hours... 2nd cent: Let's face it, online prices are very appealing and the more one buys, the more is the discount. Most of the times, I bundle up my purchases of dry goods and live stock so that I can save on shipping and handling costs. Especially, if you factor in the fact that everything is delivered to your door; it is too good to be true!!! On the other hand, some of the live stock that I got online before was either not the same as pictured on the website or sick or something. This is where the guarantee factors in. Live Aquaria (since they were mentioned in this thread) gives a 14 day guarantee for live stock purchases and they are pretty good at handling returns or refunds (I had a refund experience with them for a clownfish that arrived almost dead and upon sending them pictures they took care of the issue and send me a new fish). So, the question becomes; when online vendors can guarantee their merchandise, which by the way travels across the country in a FedEx truck for a couple of days, why can't the local vendors guarantee their live stock like that??? I think this kind of an assurance in their live stock will only bring more business. I also support the idea of trade-ins for store credit. Just like Hypertech stated before, no one would walk into a mechanic and hand in car part for nothing in return... I am an enthusiastic supporter of shopping locally but LFSs around DC need to up their games by far to complete with online vendors IMO.... I wish I had the means to open up a store in metro DC area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mogurnda December 10, 2011 Share December 10, 2011 John, I really like your store, and would shop there more than once every two years if it weren't a two hour round trip. As has been said by others, you really are exceptional. I have tried ordering livestock and equipment at local stores in MD, and astounds me how hard it is. If they really want my business, why blow me off when I am trying to order something expensive? Contrast that with the online service at Inland Aquatics, where Morgan and Lucas really know their stuff and send me beautiful fish (at a hefty price), or Premium Aquatics where I get any dry goods I need fast and with fantastic customer service. I worked at LFSs for four years in the pre-internet era, and it was tough then. It is a slim margin. Now it's even harder. What I find bothersome, though, is that the business model is failing, and somehow it is the fault of the customers. I miss browsing at record stores and video stores, and getting suggetions from the staff, but not enough to go back to those times. Since both of my favorite online shops also have storefronts (far away from me), maybe the answer is to ramp up an online presence. One thing you might think about is changing your online name to something that makes it more obvious that you are seriously into marine fish. As is, the "marine" part of the name might seem like an afterthought to someone in Tucson. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hilary December 10, 2011 Share December 10, 2011 Good reminder, John - thanks. Many people probably don't realize how tight the business really is for the local store. It really comes down to what you value as a consumer. I personally like to build relationships, and it's worth the extra bucks to me. I like having somebody say "are you SURE you want to do that - really?" I like walking into the store and having somebody say "I know you like tiny gobies - guess what we just got in?" I like being able to special order a fish, and know that the bag is floating in a tank rather than sitting on my front doorstep when noon came and I finally had to give up my vigil waiting for the delivery guy, or on the truck, or back at the overnight facility... I like being able to see a fish eat before I bring it home. I like being able to bring in a piece of equipment I've done something to and ask for an opinion/help from somebody who can actually look at it. We have been struggling with the same issue at the scuba shop where I work. Why don't we sell equipment online? It's EXPENSIVE. Not only would we have to keep enough inventory on hand to meet any online orders, and spend the money on packing materials, but it's also a manpower issue - who is going to spend the time to pack and make the runs to the shipper? Not all small businesses are in the position to make that investment, nor do they want to. When speaking to students about the value of the local store versus the internet when making their purchases what I try to emphasize is that service and expertise have a value both in dollars spent and time not wasted getting the wrong item, one that doesn't fit, one that isn't suited to their purpose, one that isn't assembled correctly. Of course, if a local store is charging more but providing neither service nor expertise, then I agree there is no compelling reason to give them my business. That's my $0.02. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnybv December 10, 2011 Author Share December 10, 2011 Not sure what situation you went through that was bad, we have had so few of them. Please PM me to refresh my memory. As far as knowing what we have we bust our butts to get the stocklist updated weekly, and I usually even post the link here on wamas, dont know what else I can do to tell you what we have. John I never received a PM yaitz, I would really like to know the situation here, please PM me an idea of what happened and if we were unable to help you. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davelin315 December 10, 2011 Share December 10, 2011 Wow, to say I'm disappointed with how people reacted to this posting would be an understatement. Think about why you attacked and what motivation if any you had before you post and then think about why this was posted in the first place. No one puts their financial security on the line to open up a small business because they hate what they're doing (OK, so a few people do, but that's not what I'm talking about here). Small businesses are a niche of their own and there's a reason why there are small business loans and so many things were created in the past catering to small businesses. Nowadays, however, small businesses are suffering and the big companies are taking things over in fields that are not as regulated as others. Although it's not a perfect example, I think that it is important to recognize that big business has driven small businesses out many times in our history and that we've suffered because of it. Capitalism is a wonderful system, but when we are left with only one option, in the end we end up losing out. Look at all the small companies that were bought out by bigger companies and the customer service we loved so much simply went out the window, along with innovation and fun business plans. When the small businesses go, the big impersonal businesses take over. That's not to say that all big business is bad, but it certainly is nice to have competition and alternatives for those that choose them. Just look at the telecommunication industry - years ago it was stagnant because there was one company with a monopoly, then the feds stepped in and now we have choices. Look at IBM and how small businesses were squashed by them, or Microsoft, and look at how small businesses being able to survive have created an entirely different market with far superior products. When people stop opening small businesses then we lose out as consumers. Look at some of our local companies that were start ups here - look what they've done to help our own hobby because they could exist with our support. Would you rather that none of these people started up their businesses and not have had the choices that you have now? When you lose the small businesses, things can easily go south. That's all that was being said in this post to begin with. If you like having them around, even if it's just so that you can call them up in an emergency and have them go into their store at midnight to help you get a part to save your tank when things are crashing around you and you're up to your ankles in water (pun fully intended), then hopefully you'll give them business to stay afloat. I don't shop much in stores because my tank is still not right, but every time I go into a store, the employees there talk to me about troubleshooting and trying to make things right - I have never had an online vendor do that except to have me buy a new product that they are currently marketing. When I do shop, I try and support my local stores because I value having them around and would rather give them the business than someone else (heck, I recently bought 1,000 lbs of kitty litter from F&F because they helped me to get a good deal on it and I'd rather buy it from them than someone else - and no, I'm not crazy cat person). If you don't want to support them, that's your prerogative, but you shouldn't criticize others because you don't agree with them. Shop how you want, shop where you want, it's your choice, but don't ridicule someone else because they want to protect their own investment in something they love doing or those that support them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davelin315 December 10, 2011 Share December 10, 2011 Wow, to say I'm disappointed with how people reacted to this posting would be an understatement. Think about why you attacked and what motivation if any you had before you post and then think about why this was posted in the first place. No one puts their financial security on the line to open up a small business because they hate what they're doing (OK, so a few people do, but that's not what I'm talking about here). Small businesses are a niche of their own and there's a reason why there are small business loans and so many things were created in the past catering to small businesses. Nowadays, however, small businesses are suffering and the big companies are taking things over in fields that are not as regulated as others. Although it's not a perfect example, I think that it is important to recognize that big business has driven small businesses out many times in our history and that we've suffered because of it. Capitalism is a wonderful system, but when we are left with only one option, in the end we end up losing out. Look at all the small companies that were bought out by bigger companies and the customer service we loved so much simply went out the window, along with innovation and fun business plans. When the small businesses go, the big impersonal businesses take over. That's not to say that all big business is bad, but it certainly is nice to have competition and alternatives for those that choose them. Just look at the telecommunication industry - years ago it was stagnant because there was one company with a monopoly, then the feds stepped in and now we have choices. Look at IBM and how small businesses were squashed by them, or Microsoft, and look at how small businesses being able to survive have created an entirely different market with far superior products. When people stop opening small businesses then we lose out as consumers. Look at some of our local companies that were start ups here - look what they've done to help our own hobby because they could exist with our support. Would you rather that none of these people started up their businesses and not have had the choices that you have now? When you lose the small businesses, things can easily go south. That's all that was being said in this post to begin with. If you like having them around, even if it's just so that you can call them up in an emergency and have them go into their store at midnight to help you get a part to save your tank when things are crashing around you and you're up to your ankles in water (pun fully intended), then hopefully you'll give them business to stay afloat. I don't shop much in stores because my tank is still not right, but every time I go into a store, the employees there talk to me about troubleshooting and trying to make things right - I have never had an online vendor do that except to have me buy a new product that they are currently marketing. When I do shop, I try and support my local stores because I value having them around and would rather give them the business than someone else (heck, I recently bought 1,000 lbs of kitty litter from F&F because they helped me to get a good deal on it and I'd rather buy it from them than someone else - and no, I'm not crazy cat person). If you don't want to support them, that's your prerogative, but you shouldn't criticize others because you don't agree with them. Shop how you want, shop where you want, it's your choice, but don't ridicule someone else because they want to protect their own investment in something they love doing or those that support them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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