howaboutme October 23, 2013 Share October 23, 2013 Good Question..here is my 2 cents.. The reason that stress becomes a factor with ich is if the parasite is in your aquarium or on encysted on the fish. So when you first start up a fish tank with dry rock, sand etc.. and you throw a piece of feed rock in there.. that once piece of rock could possibly have the ich parasite encysted on it from where ever it came from. How ever once it hatches and goes through its life cycle with no fish to host on it will eventually die off from the tank completely. With the idea of having a sterile tank with out these or other parasites,worms etc.. is why we quarantine... We can introduce a recently QT'd fish to a hopefully sterile system and not go through the above type problems.. There is alot of gaps and holes in this to where someone can go wrong. Most healthy fish can fight off the parasite with their slime coat and ich cant bore into them.. thats where stress comes into play.. (Stress can play a big role into alot of things when it comes to getting a new fish..not just disease) There is no one set of a defintive pre treatment/QT protocol. Everyone has what they beleive is correct or their all in one treatment.. I do like the idea of pre medicated treatment how ever the other 2 big goals of QT is to just observe the fish for any signs of illness or parasites which would hopefully present themselves in the time you alot for QT.. atleast 4 weeks.. then if you discover something you can treat it appropriately.. another good reason for QT is acclimating fish to different food.. pellets, frozen(mysis, brine, roggers,larry,rods) etc... If you go to live aquarias website they lay it out perfect why QT is recommended and how they do it exactly. Good answer and I get it. I'm really impressed with the amount of researched you've done in a short amount of time. Kudos to you. Expanding upon what you've said with further thinking...We know that fish get ich from stress if ich is present in the tank. But if the fish never get stressed, how would we know ich is NOT present? The host is there (fish) but we don't see signs of it because the fishes immune system fights it off. What you've said above is correct in terms of a tank having no available host and therefore the ich goes away. But in certain instances we've all read, our tank may in fact contain ich but because our fish (the host) are strong, it doesn't poke it's head out. Now, when you add a new fish after a successful QT into that tank, you assume all will go well because you assume you don't have ich in your tank when in fact you may. Now add the stress from going from one tank to another (and everything that goes with that) and that may be the catalyst to ich rearing it's head. (Please use my initial question regarding QTing at a LFS or another persons tank for this scenario.) Am I missing something here? Jenn's experience with her YB is kind of similar to what I am saying in that ich MAY be there but doesn't show unless fish are stressed. In that case, how would proactively QTing any new fish help? Just as note...I am not advocating not proactively QTing and know how important it is, even though I choose for one reason or another not to. This is informative and I personally am interested in diving deeper into the discussion after peeling off the initial layers of "why we QT". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sachabballi reef October 23, 2013 Share October 23, 2013 good question Jack...since I have 14 or more fish in there and not one other fish has ever presented with anything.....but maybe once a month or more I get lazy and don't feed the tank in the morning or afternoon and by late afternoon the YB has a couple of spots....but an hour later they are gone and I accuse it of faking just to get fed...and it gives me a look like it can't believe i would accuse of it such things. The only other time I see it the YB with the same symptom is if i do a 3 day lights out...by the third day it will show a few spots that again, once lights are on and its fed go away immediately and completely... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YHSublime October 23, 2013 Author Share October 23, 2013 (edited) Jack, I don't know if this will answer your questions, but might help understand my process a little bit better. First, I'll start with the facts: 1. All my fish have been a picture of health. 2. All my fish have ferocious appetites 3. My Chevron, although a fantastic eater, with a well rounded diet, was displaying signs of marine ich, or marine velvet, no other fish exhibited this, except possibly the Hippo. 4. My Chevron, was distressed about whatever was on it, was having trouble breathing, and it's future was unknown. You know my style, I'm very c'est la vie, and for the Chevron it wasn't looking good. So let's say it was Ich, which is the presumed diagnosis. By the time I caught the Chevy and began to copper treat, what is the purpose of treating just one? Do I treat him for 4 weeks, or "X" amount of time, and throw him back in the same tank, with the same fish that never showed signs of ich, even though he did? So QT the fish showing symptoms only? Is that a band aid solution? Or like Kristin mentioned, and maybe Jenn's thoughts as well (I won't put words in your mouth) is Ich ever present in all our tanks? In theory, if everything is examined and QT'd properly, then you rid the tank of said ich during it's cycle. It's gone, done, viola! At this stage, I'm uncertain if I will be able to continue QT on all fish. I have been wondering today if my fish would have a better chance at battling ich in my tank than they do at surviving my QT experience. At this rate, it seems like I'll have to do a 10 gallon water change a day. That's 560 gallons of water, just for this one temporary QT. Not to mention, testing for ammonia twice a day, moderate feedings (which I struggle with) and time consuming water change vacs. If I miss just ONE water change, that could mean the difference between life and death. This is why i told Ryan not to applaud me yet, I'm walking a line. Edited October 23, 2013 by YHSublime Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Der ABT October 23, 2013 Share October 23, 2013 need a bigger sponge? another thing to do is if they are eating fine, do a heavy feeding a while before a change, then let them all poop and then do the water change before lights out etc so they get clean water for a while and dont muck it up as quickly as you change it. Also with the fish being stressed from just moving into the new tank ill bet they are adding to the amonia spike, when they get more used to things ill bet its less frequent .. I have one fish in qt, about 15g...1 large fish that i feed ALOT as in over feed right now.....and i can go about 3 days before the amonia spikes up, and im doing about 4g water changes every 3 days. the other thought is to get a cheapo skimmer on craigslist or something and chuck it in there and it may help some....or as yuo said before a sacrificial piece of live rock....come grab some more sponge...when your not sick that is...basically just increase thea amount of bacteria... i saw some nice buble sponge filters at quantums last time ... alot of the qt advice says to hae the qt running weeks in advance for this reason...build up the bacteria and it handles more fish alot better.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YHSublime October 23, 2013 Author Share October 23, 2013 need a bigger sponge? another thing to do is if they are eating fine, do a heavy feeding a while before a change, then let them all poop and then do the water change before lights out etc so they get clean water for a while and dont muck it up as quickly as you change it. Also with the fish being stressed from just moving into the new tank ill bet they are adding to the amonia spike, when they get more used to things ill bet its less frequent .. I have one fish in qt, about 15g...1 large fish that i feed ALOT as in over feed right now.....and i can go about 3 days before the amonia spikes up, and im doing about 4g water changes every 3 days. the other thought is to get a cheapo skimmer on craigslist or something and chuck it in there and it may help some....or as yuo said before a sacrificial piece of live rock....come grab some more sponge...when your not sick that is...basically just increase thea amount of bacteria... i saw some nice buble sponge filters at quantums last time ... alot of the qt advice says to hae the qt running weeks in advance for this reason...build up the bacteria and it handles more fish alot better.. Well, from a guy that didn't QT when he had his old tank, there is always a risk running. Simply put, the reason nobody does this is because it's a pain in the ass. Thanks for the offer on a sponge. I've got a fairly big sized rock i can throw in there. Maybe I'll do a sponge collection at the meet, as I will be setting up a 55 QT Saturday. Still on the fence with this endeavor. Odds are I'll probably just complain through the whole 8 weeks and realize it's over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
howaboutme October 23, 2013 Share October 23, 2013 (edited) In theory, if everything is examined and QT'd properly, then you rid the tank of said ich during it's cycle. It's gone, done, viola! What you said here is exactly what I am hypothesizing is not true. Again, I don't have scientific backup. I am just saying this based on my own research and analytic thinking. If the ich is present but NOT shown itself because of healthy fish, you're tank is not necessarily rid of ich. Going back to Mattiejay's comment regarding starting a tank anew and going fallow during cycling to eliminate a carrier of ich from the LR you use to seed and then adding a fish that was in QT and shown no signs of ich... The theory is that there is NO ICH. I am questioning that based on what's been said: that a healthy fish will not show signs of ich even if it is present in our tanks/systems. I take that as ich is not gone. And again, I haven't hit Cntrl N to google what I am saying to edit myself here but it's worth a conversation to really understand ich and qting. Regardless of this debate, I applaud your decision to at least do your treatment. But I'm with Orion and Kristen, this hobby doesn't become fun during this time just for a handful of fish. I would have kept it in the DT and hope for a recovery. Edited October 23, 2013 by howaboutme Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YHSublime October 23, 2013 Author Share October 23, 2013 Regardless of this debate, I applaud your decision to at least do your treatment. But I'm with Orion and Kristen, this hobby doesn't become fun during this time just for a handful of fish. I would have kept it in the DT and hope for a recovery. I agree with them as well. But, if you had seen the fish the way I saw it, after you knew the way it was supposed to behave, I can't help but feel like you would have contemplated QT. That's if this mess was even ich, I can't find any visible signs of what was avaliable the first day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Rhoads October 23, 2013 Share October 23, 2013 (edited) Isaac, from reading though this I think, my opinion only obviously, that you should only treat the fish that were displaying signs (hippo, and Chev). Get them better, save yourself some time, $, and headache; and be done with this. If the other fish are healthy and have the slime coat to fight off the Ich that may or may not (but is) in all of our tanks then they will be good to go. Put them back into their homes and stop stressing them out Edited October 23, 2013 by Jason Rhoads Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marinap October 23, 2013 Share October 23, 2013 I would not lower the salinity at this point. Doing that will throw off pH and make copper more toxic. I would treat all fish, not just the ones displaying symptoms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orion October 23, 2013 Share October 23, 2013 Where's Paul B? My clown with ich today - Most spots have gone away. She is now playing in the GSP with her mate, and still eating like a fat pig. The other fish are all eating, and show no signs of it. It may or may not be ich, but I am fairly certain that this was a small outbreak caused by me removing rock/coral last week stressing them out. I like to keep my hands out of the tank as much as possible. I am no expert, but I believe your fish will be fine in the display. Just keep them eating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BowieReefer84 October 23, 2013 Share October 23, 2013 Ich doesn't "go away." The cysts fall off, and it is all part of the ich cycle of life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roni October 23, 2013 Share October 23, 2013 I would not lower the salinity at this point. Doing that will throw off pH and make copper more toxic. I would treat all fish, not just the ones displaying symptoms. yup. Ultimately, if you treat just the fish that show signs and get them fat, you may be fine when you reintroduce, since the fish would _likely_ be able to fight off whatever is subclinical (present but not manifest) in the other fish. However, by treating everyone and then aggressive qting any new introductions, you hopefully avoid 1) introducing a virulent disease which wipes out your tank 2) keep the opportunistic players down to a manageable amount. There aren't that many fish present currently. It's easier to do it and control the environment as much as possible going forward but ultimately, it's playing the odds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YHSublime October 24, 2013 Author Share October 24, 2013 Ich doesn't "go away." The cysts fall off, and it is all part of the ich cycle of life. I understand that, I learned about that process a few meetings ago when Christine Williams came and spoke. At that stage, I had 2 clowns and didn't see myself with much more, the goo ol' days. yup. Ultimately, if you treat just the fish that show signs and get them fat, you may be fine when you reintroduce, since the fish would _likely_ be able to fight off whatever is subclinical (present but not manifest) in the other fish. However, by treating everyone and then aggressive qting any new introductions, you hopefully avoid 1) introducing a virulent disease which wipes out your tank 2) keep the opportunistic players down to a manageable amount. There aren't that many fish present currently. It's easier to do it and control the environment as much as possible going forward but ultimately, it's playing the odds. That's a great way of putting it, Roni. I honestly don't know how long I'll be able to do this. I'd like to push myself to 4 weeks and then see how it goes from there. Bless her heart, the Fiance has already agreed, and also insisted I QT at least the Chevy, I know it's a burden for non hobbyist to be surrounded by water in a small apartment. Soon this 150 will make it's way into an "in wall" situation, but for now.. I noticed the polyps on my cali tort fully extended today. I've had this piece for about 8 months, and I've never seen it so alive. Don't get me wron'g, it's grown about 2", just full polyp extensions the day after I removed all the fish, I thought it was curious. The tank...fishless: And the Chevy. I observed today that there is no ich present, however, there seems to be a piece of skin missing on its lip, thoughts from others? The rest of the fish have quite an appetite, and I'm only feeding pellets currently, but I have offered up seaweed, and he seems uninterested. He will nibble at the few that hit the bottom, but overall, not a huge appetite anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
howaboutme October 24, 2013 Share October 24, 2013 Well, Isaac, the tank is still a beauty even without fish. Keep up the good work now that you've committed yourself to a solution. No half a$$. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YHSublime October 24, 2013 Author Share October 24, 2013 Well, Isaac, the tank is still a beauty even without fish. Keep up the good work now that you've committed yourself to a solution. No half a$$. Thanks, Jack. I'm hoping that somebody can chime in on the lip situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marinap October 24, 2013 Share October 24, 2013 If the wound gets red and swollen, you can add antibiotics, something like Furan2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YHSublime October 24, 2013 Author Share October 24, 2013 If the wound gets red and swollen, you can add antibiotics, something like Furan2. Thanks for that. It is the only visual issue with this fish. I am wondering how it got there, as this is the biggest fish in the tank, it was not getting picked on. Appetite is pretty much at 0 now with him. I have tried several different foods, dry and frozen. I think I might see if I can get some blackworms tonight. Despite lack of appetite, is still moving, and quick to zip if startled. All other fish are showing no signs of ich, or anything else, however, only my ORA clown pair is eating as though nothing has happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trockafella October 24, 2013 Share October 24, 2013 Pristine aquarium on pickett always has blackworms, im guessing some other vendors do as well.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YHSublime October 24, 2013 Author Share October 24, 2013 Pristine aquarium on pickett always has blackworms, im guessing some other vendors do as well.. Thanks! This is normally the place I get my blackworms, it's only about 10 minutes from my work. I went in on Tuesday morning, and the shipment wasn't in till the afternoon. It seems I'm always just eary enough to miss it, or just late enough after they have sold out. I plan on stopping by on my lunch. I have tried to find the Selcon product, but not looked to hard. I just searched, and it looks like Quantum is carrying it, hopefully they'll have some in stock. If I can get the fish back to their regular hearty appetites, I would feel a little more confident about the future weeks of this QT process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YHSublime October 24, 2013 Author Share October 24, 2013 Picked up a copious amount of black worms. Well, turns out even my new fish don't much care for them. Luckily I mixed some meaty pieces of food in there, and the chevy got pretty excited tonight. The Melanarus took a nibble at some of the meaty foods, but stuck to pellets. The clowns, pellets, the hippo, pellets. Did a 5 gallon WC this AM, and did a 5 gallon WC this evening, added +5 more gallons back in to up the water volume. My ammonia kicks in right at about 10 hours, I water change after I feed at night when I get home from work, and then 5 gallons again in the morning when I wake up. I'm starting to feel a little more confident with the procedure, although not yet convinced if I'm on the right path. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YHSublime October 24, 2013 Author Share October 24, 2013 Was reading back over instructions, and realized I didn't do very well in following directions. I have been dosing 16 drops to every 10.5 gallons. It says to wait 48 hours and repeat. I'm unclear on that repeat. Does that mean that for 48 drops I've put in (31.5 gallons) I should add another 48 drops to my current water? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marinap October 24, 2013 Share October 24, 2013 You repeat the original amount of drops after 48 hours. If you are doing waterchanges, you need to add appropriate amount of drops to replace the amount lost with every waterchange. More importantly you need to measure copper level in the tank with a kit designed for the particular copper med that you are using. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YHSublime October 24, 2013 Author Share October 24, 2013 You repeat the original amount of drops after 48 hours. If you are doing waterchanges, you need to add appropriate amount of drops to replace the amount lost with every waterchange. More importantly you need to measure copper level in the tank with a kit designed for the particular copper med that you are using. Ok. So I have the seachem that I'm using, and the testing kit. I've added 48 drops, and every time I do a water change, I add the appropriate amount of drops back in, ie. I take out 5.5 gallons, i add 8 drops with the fresh 5.5 So now that I've been doing that, I will add +48 drops to my current 48 drops, making it 96 drops (it's been over 48 hours) Does that mean if I do a 5.5 gallon water change, I'm going to have to add back 16 drops now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marinap October 24, 2013 Share October 24, 2013 I would measure first and then add 48 more, if needed. Have you acclimated the fish to copper at 1/4 strength first? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marinap October 24, 2013 Share October 24, 2013 The point is that copper degrades pretty fast, hence the directions state to repeat the dosage. You need to figure out how fast it degrades in your tank. You do not want to add more without measuring first. HTH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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