Staring at an uphill battle

[YHSublime]

I would measure first and then add 48 more, if needed. Have you acclimated the fish to copper at 1/4 strength first?

 

I followed the instructions to a "T" and added 16 drops for every 10.5 gallons I used, I presume that is a full dosage? I have just put together a test, and I'm waiting to see what types of results it reads.

 

The point is that copper degrades pretty fast, hence the directions state to repeat the dosage. You need to figure out how fast it degrades in your tank. You do not want to add more without measuring first. HTH

 

I did not know that copper degrades quickly! That definitly makes things a whole lot clearer going forward. The goal, from my understanding, is to get it to remain at .5

[YHSublime]

Ok, so I just tested, and I'm at .25 according to seachems test, presumably if I added what I already added it would bring me up to the .50

 

marinap, super helpful, many thanks for your quick replies and accurate information.

[Mattiejay6]

Hey brother just test the copper before and after you do all those water changes. Keep that running log going because you have a lot of stuff going on here.

 

That's good you have the fish eating. I am not sure about he skin on the chevron face sorry... If he is eating though awesome.. Just watch for a secondary bacterial infection.

 

As far as copper degrading... I have not read or heard that cupramine degrades like that. It can be absorbed by things quickly and leeched out later on. I tried doing some reading and still haven't found anything about it degrading?

 

Cheers

[Mattiejay6]

.5 is the goal.... But are you going from a 1/4 dose to a full dose after 48 hours? Or did you say you already went to a half dose and getting ready to up it now to a full dose?

[marinap]

Maybe degrading was a wrong word. I just know that copper level will not be stable, and you need to measure the concentration at least daily. Each tank is different, and the levels will fluctuate differently. I also used coppersafe, not cupramine before.

[YHSublime]

.5 is the goal.... But are you going from a 1/4 dose to a full dose after 48 hours? Or did you say you already went to a half dose and getting ready to up it now to a full dose?

 

I presume that the 1/4 dose is .25, which is what the original first 48 hours are, correct? So my copper levels read at .25, and if I added what I put in already again, presumably it would read .5, in a logical world.

 

I have not taken the dose up to .5 yet, but will do so tonight, or maybe slowly.

 

I thought my melanarus was dead this morning, under a piece of pvc. I was heartbroken, as he is gorgeous. A swipe or two with my water baster, and he shot across the tank like a bullet. Deep sleeper I guess. The Chevy is doing better, but from the looks in certain light, it appears some strange markings going on with it's head. I'm not sure yet, will have to observe closer tonight. 5 gallon water change this AM. 

[sachabballi reef]

The Chevy is doing better, but from the looks in certain light, it appears some strange markings going on with it's head. I'm not sure yet, will have to observe closer tonight. 5 gallon water change this AM. 

HLLE?

[YHSublime]

HLLE?

 

That would be bizarre if so. I don't run carbon, and this is an adult chevron, who has been in an aquarium for (years?) I would venture to say. Plus whatever was happening didn't seem to be symptoms of HLLE, I would rule it out, but stranger things have been possible.

 

here is a good link I found of a chevy with HLLE

[sachabballi reef]

was just a thought when you said it has weird markings on its head....and remember...just because it was in an aquarium for years it wasn't in YOUR aquarium and it wasn't QT....so get it out of your head that it was in another tank LOL...doesn't matter...

[YHSublime]

was just a thought when you said it has weird markings on its head....and remember...just because it was in an aquarium for years it wasn't in YOUR aquarium and it wasn't QT....so get it out of your head that it was in another tank LOL...doesn't matter...

 

That's very true, like I said stranger things have happened!

 

I took a dive into this article which covers MHLLE a little more in depth, and saw there are many ways we have hypothesized that a fish can get MHLLE. Some of them being, exposure to copper, variance in diet, and chronic stress. All 3 might be major factors.

 

I will see how it looks when I get home, and try and take some pictures to document if the markings I saw this morning are still there or not. I also plan to step my copper dosage up to the .5 area this evening.

 

In my DT I offer seaweed 24x7, I feed a mix of roggers and jans, and sustainable aquatics dry hatchery pellets. I feed x2 a day, and large amounts.

[YHSublime]

Well, it's fading whatever it is, and only in certain lights. I'm having a hella hard time controlling my ammonia. I have done a 15 gallon water change today, and my API kit is borderline showing ammonia still. I have gone through about 60 gallons of water, I am making another 55 right now. This evening I took the dose up to .5

I tested, and the fish seem to be responding well, so now the real deal kicks in I guess. The fish were extremely lethargic when I came home, it's nerve wracking wondering if everything is still going to be alive. Once I started feeding (which I have taken down to x1 a day) they were a lot more active. I also took a big chunk of live rock from my sump and sacrificed it. The fish seem to be enjoying having it in there, and curiously swim about. I hope all the inverts that may have been on it don't die off and spike my ammonia up again.

[Mattiejay6]

You can't use a regular test kit for ammonia... Copper will swing it so it looks bad.

 

Only ammonia badge works

[Mattiejay6]

I presume that the 1/4 dose is .25, which is what the original first 48 hours are, correct? So my copper levels read at .25, and if I added what I put in already again, presumably it would read .5, in a logical world.

 

I have not taken the dose up to .5 yet, but will do so tonight, or maybe slowly.

 

 

I would have started with .12ish wait 48, then raise to .25 wait 48, then to .35 wait a day then .5...

 

Since you started off at half dosage if you feel like it won't hurt them to take it to the full dosage then go for it.. If you don't mind being a little more patient add only half the amount of drops you were thinking about using taking it up to .35'ish and rake it full way after 24 hours..

Edited October 25, 2013 by Mattiejay6

[YHSublime]

You can't use a regular test kit for ammonia... Copper will swing it so it looks bad.

 

Only ammonia badge works

 

are you freaking kidding me?! I've been doing like 15 gallon water changes a day because I thought my ammonia was spiking. It probably is, but good to know.

[Mattiejay6]

Lol.. I thought I mentioned that somewhere? Yes most definitely ammonia test kits will read very incorrectly with copper dosing..

[YHSublime]

So on October 21st I began QT on all my fish. On the 25th I moved from .25 up to .5

 

I have not yet gotten an Ammonia badge, but may pick one up Tuesday after work, tomorrow I will be swamped. Many have asked me why I have been doing such large water changes, and I have told them because my API test kit told me my ammonia was spiking. Apperantly Copper makes them read funny. This is confirmed, and copied and pasted right from Seachem's Q&A:

 

Q: I'm using Cupramine™ and my ammonia test kit is showing ammonia off the scale. What is going on?

A: Ammonia test kits can not distinguish ammonia from the amine based complex present in Cupramine™ and will therefore give a false high reading for ammonia while using Cupramine™. Our Ammonia Alert™ and MultiTest: Free & Total Ammonia™ test kit do not suffer from this problem as they utilize a gas exchange technology that can distinguish ammonia from amines.

 

I have taken the feeding down to once a day, and just today started doing 5 gallon water changes instead of my regular 10. Although I don't have the ammonia test kit on hand, I feel like I should be OK. I siphon out all the leftover food, and the appetites are coming back to how they should be. I offered seaweed today, and the tangs went for it, I will start adding it into my daily feedings. I also sacrificed a rather large chunk of rock, which I think I mentioned earlier. It was pulled from my sump, and is amazing how many bristle worms came out of it. Every day I find a few more dead and floating around the bottom, if the Melanarus was quick enough if could have made itself a pretty good meal. I picked up some blackworms Tuesday (I believe) The fish are not interested.

[Squishie89]

I am still so sorry this happened. I am glad things are going as well as they are. Keep up the good work.

[YHSublime]

I am still so sorry this happened. I am glad things are going as well as they are. Keep up the good work.

 

Thanks for the support, it's going really well now... I feel!

 

I had to run out of the country suddenly on the 28th, and was left with all my fish in QT, with NO water made up. I frenetically ran out to Quantum and grabbed a box of salt, and luckily had  55 gallons of RO made up. I mixed it up over night, and tested the salinity right before I left. I also moved all my fish into a little bit of a nicer QT tank. A glass 55 (thanks Monki, I can't thank you enough for your help and advice through this process!)

 

 

Upon putting the Chevy in, I noticed his lips were really white and... diseased, I guess is the best way to say it.

 

 

 

I don't know what it was, but no other fish are showing symptoms. I explained the process of QT and how to do so in my temporary tank, sacrificed about 15 more lbs of live rock, and she rose to the occasion. I've gotta say, I don't know if it was just the time factor, or if she did something I wasn't doing, but my fish are looking better than ever, and the Chevy no longer has any marks. The gap in it's mouth has completely closed up, and all the spots and markings are gone. The Melanarus is eating like a pig now... actually they all are. Two week mark hit. I plan on putting them back in the tank on 12/8/13, which should give the tank enough time to have gone fallow, and the fish to have received proper treatment. I plan to treat with copper at .50 until 11/17.

[gmerek2]

My hippo tang has a HLLE ulcer on the head and one near the tail. I dont run carbon but fish was stressed and had poor water quality for quite a bit of time from me buying and moving the tank. With change of owner, im sure Mr. hippos diet changed also. Thats a bummer that you cant monitor ammonia. Thats what wiped out my QT clownfish. Wow going fast you will have those healthy fish back in DT it no time! Keep it up!

[YHSublime]

My hippo tang has a HLLE ulcer on the head and one near the tail. I dont run carbon but fish was stressed and had poor water quality for quite a bit of time from me buying and moving the tank. With change of owner, im sure Mr. hippos diet changed also. Thats a bummer that you cant monitor ammonia. Thats what wiped out my QT clownfish. Wow going fast you will have those healthy fish back in DT it no time! Keep it up!

 

Bummer about your Hippo. Glad to hear it's doing alright now. My little guy got pretty stressed I think when I put him into the 180. He's doing a lot better now, and even socializes with the other fish better. He also has colored up better, before he was not as bright, and had slight signs of ich. None of the fish are exhibiting any signs of ich, so from here on out, and the extended treatment is an extra precaution in my book.

 

I plan on adding 3 more fish. Does anybody have any advice on this? Should I add the fish in with my current QT'd fish, or should I setup a different system? I would like them to be QT'd for at least 4-6 weeks before adding them on the final date with my entire stocklist. I feel like my answer will be a whole different system, which was my original plan, but space is at a premium!

[fscbishop]

How's the fish doing issac?

[Der ABT]

on cupramine i found about 3 drops per gallon on water change water was about .4-.5...my goal was .3 for 4 weeks.

 

if you get the seachem alert tab thing (the one that sits in the tank) for amonia it is not affected by the cupramine.....also suggest getting the same brand test kit aka seachem...

 

the hlle is most likely from amonia in the qt tank, get teh water quality better and it should start to go away.

if your having to change water taht much, id throw in a biiig piece of sponge from you tank to give some better bacteria....

 

Also i wuold throw in somebig PVC pieces so that they have some places to hide/sleep...just make sure you only use them for QT

[YHSublime]

How's the fish doing issac?

 

Great! I've got a frag for you btw

 

on cupramine i found about 3 drops per gallon on water change water was about .4-.5...my goal was .3 for 4 weeks.

 

if you get the seachem alert tab thing (the one that sits in the tank) for amonia it is not affected by the cupramine.....also suggest getting the same brand test kit aka seachem...

 

the hlle is most likely from amonia in the qt tank, get teh water quality better and it should start to go away.

if your having to change water taht much, id throw in a biiig piece of sponge from you tank to give some better bacteria....

 

Also i wuold throw in somebig PVC pieces so that they have some places to hide/sleep...just make sure you only use them for QT

 

Thanks for the advice, Evan! I probably should have been a bit more clear with with my last statement. I am maintaining my cupramine at .50, and have been for almost 2 weeks straight now. I can test for ammonia, just due to circumstances, I have been super busy and not able to put a badge in. My fail safe has been a 5 gallon water change daily after 1 heavy feeding. The fish are free and clear of any blemishes (the pictures above are from about a week ago, and those markings are no longer there.) There is about 20lbs of rock in the qt tank 30 gallons of water, and 1 sponge.

 

I plan to treat with cupramine for another 2 weeks (totaling 4 weeks of copper treatment) and then another 4 weeks fallow in the DT tank. In between all that, I plan on adding 3 fish. I would like to QT those fish, but it doesn't make sense to QT them in with my already 4 week QT'd fish, so I guess what I was asking is the best course of action setting up another QT tank, or can I throw them in with my current fish, and treat with copper for 8 weeks?

[Der ABT]

if the fish arent large i would just start a new tank, get a 20 long or something from a member, the dollar a gallon sale or craigslist etc

just no use in risking those fish taht you just spent 4 weeks putting thru copper...

 

or just wait till they are back in the tank and then reuse the current tank for the new fish once you have everyone back in the tank.

[lnevo]

or just wait till they are back in the tank and then reuse the current tank for the new fish once you have everyone back in the tank.

+1