Phosphate Solutions, and is a solution needed...

[YHSublime]

So phosphates in my tank are really high. 74 = .227, and my ULR usually shows around 170, which doubles it off the chart.

 

I don't have a lot of algae growing in my tank, but I do get red slime in the center on my tonga rock. I have turned my flow up all the way, but maybe there is still not enough? Every week or two I take out my baster and blast it off the rocks, and do a 40 gallon water change. This takes care of it until it comes back again, so obviously a temporary fix.

 

I feed a lot. I broadcast feed, and I don't turn off any of my flow. I know this is part of the problem, but I don't see it slowing down. Aside from the aesthetics, it's not that big a deal, my SPS is growing at what I consider a really fast rate, and my LPS are doing really well on the other hand. My zoas are multiplying, and my acans are sprouting new heads at phenomenal speeds.

 

I dose nothing, and I use Reef Crystals. I run an Avast CS3, which is skimming like a champ. I have considered starting bio-pellets, but I'm not convinced that is the answer. Part of my solution is going to be running cheato in my sump once I hook up my mantis tank, and hope that will help with my heavy in-heavy out mentality.

 

Thoughts? Do I take my growth and my fat fish and just stick with cleaning it up, or is there a better way?

[John Ford]

Instead of blowing it around siphon it out with a 1/2" hose. It took me a few water changes but most of my cyano is gone now. Blowing it around just spreads the problem. Even if you do a water change after

[lnevo]

Thoughts? Do I take my growth and my fat fish and just stick with cleaning it up, or is there a better way?

Yes. See what happens when you get the chaeto going and let that beast of a skimmer do its thing.

[YHSublime]

Instead of blowing it around siphon it out with a 1/2" hose. It took me a few water changes but most of my cyano is gone now. Blowing it around just spreads the problem. Even if you do a water change after

 

Does that really spread it?

 

Yes. See what happens when you get the chaeto going and let that beast of a skimmer do its thing.

 

That's what I was figuring, worst comes to worst, I'll grow chaeto at an amazing rate...

[TheyCallMeMr.703]

Yes. See what happens when you get the chaeto going and let that beast of a skimmer do its thing.

Yup, if you blow it around, floats off into a corner, and it gets no light... it dies. Thus releasing those nutrients, Right back into the water....

   

Don't overfeed. Do you wash your frozen food before??

 

 

You could go out and spend allot of money, and get some nice equipment, parts, dosing stuff, etc.... but I really don't think its needed, as everything is doing alright in your tank ATM. Keep It Simple.    

 Cheato, Water Changes, and Time... let the Biological System catch up to the new bio-load in the tank, the cheato will help tremendously. Don't forget to trim.  

     Remember the goal, is to create a Natural, ''Almost'' Self-Supporting Ecosystem. Give it a chance to get back in balance within' itself.... Got allot of life in that tank now for the Bio-Load to handle.... 

[gmerek2]

My chaeto grows at amazing rates. It was the solution for nitrates but only put a dent in my phosphate problem. GFO was my phosphate fixer. Eventually it choked out my GHA problem. It is not as expensive as everyone claims. The initial purchase is but it only takes like 4 teaspoons and lasts a month. I don't test for phosphates but I can tell when it's exhausted because I see more algae growth and have to clean more often.

[jimlin]

what is your nitrate reading?

[zygote2k]

I have the same issue on 2 large tanks- the 300 and the 500. Both are fed heavily, so both need some way to export No3 and P04. Skimmer and bio-pellets take care of the nitrates and another reactor with phosphate pellets. Neither tank has a fuge.

[BowieReefer84]

Kent phoshphate sponge is a good way to drop phosphates quickly, and it can be recharged.  Granted it is less effective with each recharge.  This would be good if they are REALLY high then switch to GFO.

 

Like if starting a tank with the BRS rock.

Edited February 19, 2014 by BowieReefer84

[Der ABT]

are yuo running activated carbon on your rodi? i had alot of random nutrient issues from the chloramines in the water when i moved to arlington that i never had before. added the activated carbon stage and alot of things cleared up without changing my routine.

 

though im guessing by admitting you feed too much, its more than i think....just feed a little less each time, food should dissappear withing 3-5 minutes...and i mean disappear. otherwise its gonna be alot of waste

[AlanM]

Now that I'm a phosphate expert, here is my ill informed opinion. 

 

Your tank looks awesome.  I have around 1/8 the corals you have in your tank, so it's really important for me to export nutrients because I simply have so little coral in there that the only thing that will grow in there from all of the energy that I am dumping into the tank as light is algae, cyano and green stuff.  Since you are loaded with coral you have lots of stuff in there that can use those inorganic nutrients, nitrate and phosphate. 

 

My opinion is that you might be able to get rid of the cyano by growing algae or biopellets or something, but there is nothing unsightly about your tank.  It's awesome and full of life.  Feel free to grow chaeto.  It's easy and guaranteed to export stuff.  It also helps with pH swings.  Feel free to keep blowing or siphoning the cyano, but I wouldn't knock yourself out doing it.

[howaboutme]

You personally have told me when I got my first bought of cyano to "let it ride"....

 

Turkey bast the cyano out of your tank during water changes. Flow does nothing but blow it to another place to let it grow. Do more water changes. Try doing 20G every 3 days instead of a 40G every week or two for a couple of weeks. I think you'll see some improvement.

 

But seriously..do I need to post this link again?

 

http://wamas.org/forums/topic/63366-awesome-high-po4-sps-tank/

 

Haha..I know I kiss Rich's a$$ but whatever.

[sachabballi reef]

I went through the same thing but also got a bit of bryopsis and gha at the same time but it was the cyano that was making me insane.  I kicked up the flow as much as everything could take it and did 2 water changes a week sucking up the cyano as I did.  I scrubbed the rocks with a toothbrush and ran GFO from brs for a few weeks with carbon.  The cyano was gone really quickly (I think my prob there was flow related honestly) and the GHA and bryopsis disappeared as well....I disconnected both the GFO and carbon as soon as the tank was back in order as I noticed my colors weren't as good with them hooked in....its been a couple of months and all is well and gone...now I am just having a really bad explosion of coralline all over my glass and I can't keep up with the scraping...sigh...

I am back to just once a week water changes...I have never in 11 years been able to keep macro alive so have never bothered with a fuge...

so keep on keeping on but definitely remove it all and not just blow it around

[John Ford]

I'm still trying to figure all this stuff out but it seems to me if you blow it off the rock with a turkey baster it just stirs it around. Maybe some stays suspended long enough to get taken out with a water change. If you physically suck it off the rock with a hose the red slime and whatever it's feeding off of will be siphoned out of the tank. If the rock is leaching nutrients your at least cleaning the surface and helping it leach by sucking it out all together and not just blowing it around.

I'm sure a turkey baster has its good points but I think if you can get to it you should remove it and then blow out the nooks and crannys you can't get to

[John Ford]

I battled gha and red slime for months, close to a year actually. I upped my flow and used a turkey baster everyday to the point I was almost done with the hobby. My best results showed when I started siphoning with a 1/2" hose and removing 100% of the areas I was having issues with.

[Mattiejay6]

Have you looked into an algae turf scrubber?

[YHSublime]

GFO was my phosphate fixer. Eventually it choked out my GHA problem.

 

Not sure how I feel about running GFO.

 

what is your nitrate reading?

 

See above

 

I have the same issue on 2 large tanks- the 300 and the 500. Both are fed heavily, so both need some way to export No3 and P04. Skimmer and bio-pellets take care of the nitrates and another reactor with phosphate pellets. Neither tank has a fuge.

 

I've not heard of phosphate pellets. Would your recommendation be to run bio pellets and phosphate pellets on top of heavy skimming?

 

Kent phoshphate sponge is a good way to drop phosphates quickly, and it can be recharged.  Granted it is less effective with each recharge.  This would be good if they are REALLY high then switch to GFO.

 

Like if starting a tank with the BRS rock.

 

So I don't see my high phosphates as a problem. It causes some red slime, which is actually pretty, and almost a burgundy color, but that's about the only ill effect. Like I said, I don't see a problem with growth or color in my tank, and if I was comfortable just siphoning it off every week, I imagine it would equal continued success. At least I like to think it would. The last thing I want to do is drop it quickly, the changes I make I want to be gradual.

 

are yuo running activated carbon on your rodi? i had alot of random nutrient issues from the chloramines in the water when i moved to arlington that i never had before. added the activated carbon stage and alot of things cleared up without changing my routine.

 

though im guessing by admitting you feed too much, its more than i think....just feed a little less each time, food should dissappear withing 3-5 minutes...and i mean disappear. otherwise its gonna be alot of waste

 

Yes, I'm using the T-III from Air Water and Ice, and my filters are brand new. Although I filled up the tank with probably close to exhausted filters, and I understand phosphates can linger around in the rock, and can take a while to leach out while you try and control them. But you're right, I feed way too much, like I admitted. If you saw what I actually fed you would be appalled. I think that's good advise, in just feeding what should be enough to disappear within 3-5 minutes. I like to think I have enough of a good CUC to take care of the rest.

 

Now that I'm a phosphate expert, here is my ill informed opinion. 

 

Your tank looks awesome.  I have around 1/8 the corals you have in your tank, so it's really important for me to export nutrients because I simply have so little coral in there that the only thing that will grow in there from all of the energy that I am dumping into the tank as light is algae, cyano and green stuff.  Since you are loaded with coral you have lots of stuff in there that can use those inorganic nutrients, nitrate and phosphate. 

 

My opinion is that you might be able to get rid of the cyano by growing algae or biopellets or something, but there is nothing unsightly about your tank.  It's awesome and full of life.  Feel free to grow chaeto.  It's easy and guaranteed to export stuff.  It also helps with pH swings.  Feel free to keep blowing or siphoning the cyano, but I wouldn't knock yourself out doing it.

 

I can't even tell you what my nitrates are, I've not checked. I only really test for alk and calc these days, and phosphates, based on the issues. Thanks for the compliment, I also am really happy with the tank, and I believe it will end up getting used one way or another. On the other hand, there is excess of something (my feeding) that I don't see changing (my feeding) that I'm looking for a way to export out.

 

To be clear, this has been going on for quite some time now, and it really doesn't take but half an hour out of my week to do it. I think growing chaeto and cutting back my feeding a bit is going to be a good way to go. But you're right, I'm not going to break my back over getting a reactor hooked up tonight, or 100% water change. The only reason I posted this up is because I was talking with somebody who had high phosphates for a long time, and it eventually became a problem for them, and I felt... cautioned.

 

You personally have told me when I got my first bought of cyano to "let it ride"....

 

Turkey bast the cyano out of your tank during water changes. Flow does nothing but blow it to another place to let it grow. Do more water changes. Try doing 20G every 3 days instead of a 40G every week or two for a couple of weeks. I think you'll see some improvement.

 

But seriously..do I need to post this link again?

 

http://wamas.org/forums/topic/63366-awesome-high-po4-sps-tank/

 

Haha..I know I kiss Rich's a$$ but whatever.

 

Yeah, yeah yeah, see above statements to Alan

 

I went through the same thing but also got a bit of bryopsis and gha at the same time but it was the cyano that was making me insane.  I kicked up the flow as much as everything could take it and did 2 water changes a week sucking up the cyano as I did.  I scrubbed the rocks with a toothbrush and ran GFO from brs for a few weeks with carbon.  The cyano was gone really quickly (I think my prob there was flow related honestly) and the GHA and bryopsis disappeared as well....I disconnected both the GFO and carbon as soon as the tank was back in order as I noticed my colors weren't as good with them hooked in....its been a couple of months and all is well and gone...now I am just having a really bad explosion of coralline all over my glass and I can't keep up with the scraping...sigh...

I am back to just once a week water changes...I have never in 11 years been able to keep macro alive so have never bothered with a fuge...

so keep on keeping on but definitely remove it all and not just blow it around

 

I don't mind coraline. I clean my glass every day, it takes 60 seconds, and I like a clean box. I was growing cheato on my 57 in the sump, as well as dragons breath. I think what I'm going to do in the mantis tank is do some nice macros, and chaeto in the sump.

 

I'm still trying to figure all this stuff out but it seems to me if you blow it off the rock with a turkey baster it just stirs it around. Maybe some stays suspended long enough to get taken out with a water change. If you physically suck it off the rock with a hose the red slime and whatever it's feeding off of will be siphoned out of the tank. If the rock is leaching nutrients your at least cleaning the surface and helping it leach by sucking it out all together and not just blowing it around.

I'm sure a turkey baster has its good points but I think if you can get to it you should remove it and then blow out the nooks and crannys you can't get to

 

I think you're right after reading about it.

 

Have you looked into an algae turf scrubber?

 

Yes. And then I promptly forgot about it. I was talking with "Worm" on our forum about his, which I noticed was modeled off of plans from one on RC. It's one of those things that would probably do me a WORLD of good that will take me a year to build or install. See: Apex, Mantis Tank, Algae Scrubber.

 

I think, unless I can get some firm directions on an advised plan of action, here is mine:

 

Less gallons - more frequent water changes

Less blowing of the red slime - more target removal

Less food - only what's eaten in 3 to 5 min.

Cheato growing in the sump after mantis tank is built - continued heavy skimming.

Think about building algae scrubber - keep thinking about it.

[Orion]

I have to ask - 

When was the last time you gave your test kit vials a vinegar bath, and cleaned them up really well?

Phosphates can stick to the vials from previous tests, and can give you a false reading.

[Jason Rhoads]

In my experience cyno is cyclical and will eventually burn through whatever is fueling it. Provided you do what you are proposing above ^, I think you will be red-slime-less in a few months maximum. 

[YHSublime]

I have to ask - 

When was the last time you gave your test kit vials a vinegar bath, and cleaned them up really well?

Phosphates can stick to the vials from previous tests, and can give you a false reading.

 

Honestly, my ulr bought used, but I do a really thorough RO rinse after every use. I don't believe this is an issue, but it is worth a shot for sure.

[YHSublime]

In my experience cyno is cyclical and will eventually burn through whatever is fueling it. Provided you do what you are proposing above ^, I think you will be red-slime-less in a few months maximum. 

 

I think that's a good action plan, right?!

[Orion]

Honestly, my ulr bought used, but I do a really thorough RO rinse after every use. I don't believe this is an issue, but it is worth a shot for sure.

 

Try the vinegar bath for 10minutes, and rinse with RO really well before you do anything else.  I bought my test kit used, and had totally different readings before and after the bath.

[Mattiejay6]

I ordered an algae turf scrubber from turbo aquatics.. Should be coming in soon.. Roni has one and they are pretty awesome.

[Sharkey18]

Soooooo, I definitely have a few thoughts on this. 

 

I too was running with high phosphates and everything was looking great. And then it wasn't.  My phosphates got into the .3 /.4 range. Almost all of my sps browned and died. 

 

I stopped feeding so much, increased the macro growth in the fuge, got a much better skimmer and increased water changes. Phosphates have dropped to the .13 arena and everything is looking better. SPS are coloring back up and growing. New pieces are doing well. 

 

In retrospect my concern is that it is possible that my corals were under stress from high phosphates. After several months (like 8) they just couldn't tolerate them anymore and started to die. Perhaps something else in the tank added stress, perhaps it was the phosphates alone. My point is that there is ample evidence that high phosphates are not good for sps, and some evidence that they can tolerate them. 

 

My worry for you is that everything might look fine today, but that does not mean the corals are not under stress from high phosphates. It just might take them a while to show it. And when they show it, the color they choose is brown. 

 

I am happy where my phosphates are now, .10 -.13 and I am not aiming for a .05 level.  I think they can tolerate higher than close to zero but I do think .227 is getting into the danger zone. Especially if that is where it stays. 

 

Dude, just stop feeding so much and get them down to .15. You keep saying you feed too much and you don't see that changing. Well, start seeing that changing.  Stop being so stubborn bout feeding and do whats right for everything in your tank. If you are feeding that much, most of it is going to waster anyhow.  If you grow some chaeto and reduce your feeding just a little bit, it is totally doable really fast and you don't have to concern yourself with MORE reactors which also bring headaches and side effects. 

 

Don't toast your gorgeous tank like I did. 

[dave w]

Is your display tank located in an area where you could put a spare tank near it?  Because if you can, the water level in the spare tank can be set an inch above your display tank, making it an ATS, refugium and even a zooplankton reactor.  It sounds like you have the impression that an ATS is complicated, but I think it is very easy if you set it up right.  If it is above the display tank, then zooplankton flows down by gravity rather than being chopped up by the pump.

 

I'd also guess that electricity to the lights for your ATS would be cheaper than salt for large water changes, but I'm not sure.  Others who have made the cost comparison can enlighten us both on that.

Edited February 20, 2014 by dave w