zygote2k February 13, 2014 Share February 13, 2014 Snorkel Bob has done it again! He's made complaints to the company HQ of one of our clients that they are currently using wild caught fish, and that they must use ORA or face pressure that they are adding to the demise of the reef. We now have to get rid of all the old fish and buy a whole bunch of new ones that are sustainable. We will easily rehome the old existing fish, but I wonder what happens to the fish that don't have the opportunity to be recycled? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BowieReefer84 February 13, 2014 Share February 13, 2014 Maybe the guy from Sea Save will come after you as well... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanM February 13, 2014 Share February 13, 2014 Has anyone quantified how much damage snorkel bob and his tourists do to the reefs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YHSublime February 13, 2014 Share February 13, 2014 Fish oil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaryL February 13, 2014 Share February 13, 2014 who is this Snorkel Bob? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Origami February 13, 2014 Share February 13, 2014 who is this Snorkel Bob?Anti - Aquarium trade activist in Hawaii. Sent from my LG G-Pad 8.3 Google Play Edition Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave w February 13, 2014 Share February 13, 2014 The snorkel and diving trades have always disliked fish collectors. Divers want rare and beautiful fish to stay on the reef, collectors take those fish because they bring the best money. Make no mistake, both the snorkeling and the fish collection trades hurt the reef. But not nearly so much as the dumping of untreated sewage and trash, the killing of sharks for chinese soup, the deforestation of most of the worlds mangrove swamps to grow shrimp/prawns for the grocery store. And in a wider perspective, none of the above damages the reef as much as burning coal for the world's electricity which makes the oceans more acidic and prevents calcium carbonate formation in shells and corals. So none of us should be hypocrites, all of our actions hurt the reef. We aquarists can do our part by not buying fish and inverts with poor chances of survival. Snorkel Bob should do his part and send me $10,000 to help figure out a way to grow angelfish sustainably. I wouldn't complain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
londonloco February 13, 2014 Share February 13, 2014 Going to google this Snorkle Bob..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incredible Corals February 13, 2014 Share February 13, 2014 Snorkel Bob has done it again! He's made complaints to the company HQ of one of our clients that they are currently using wild caught fish, and that they must use ORA or face pressure that they are adding to the demise of the reef. We now have to get rid of all the old fish and buy a whole bunch of new ones that are sustainable. We will easily rehome the old existing fish, but I wonder what happens to the fish that don't have the opportunity to be recycled? Let me know if you need a place to put fish with little or no notice. Good luck with the client and all the new fishes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YHSublime February 13, 2014 Share February 13, 2014 Taken from the Snorkel Bob website, some interesting numbers getting throw around here: The Snorkel Bob Foundation was instrumental in exposing the Hawaii aquarium trade and its devastating attack on Hawaii reefs. The aquarium trade fills 80% of all tanks in the U.S. with Hawaii reef fish, 99% of which die in ayear. Those same fish live up to 40 years on the reef. Those fish leave $3-4 each in Hawaii but retail for $40-50, and each fish requires a few hundred dollars more in hardware—tanks, filters, pumps, etc. The struggle continues. Hawaii aquarium hunters have no limit on their catch, no limit on the number of catchers and no constraint on species. 80% of the fish taken by the aquarium trade are herbivores. The biggest threat to Hawaii reefs is algae. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coral Hind February 13, 2014 Share February 13, 2014 Those numbers from his website seem extremely high, almost false. I'd say most of the fish collected for the trade come from the Indo area, not Hawaii. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YHSublime February 13, 2014 Share February 13, 2014 Those numbers from his website seem extremely high, almost false. I'd say most of the fish collected for the trade come from the Indo area, not Hawaii. While I don't disagree with some of the numbers, I have trouble with statistics like The aquarium trade fills 80% of all tanks in the U.S. with Hawaii reef fish, 99% of which die in a year. At the end of the day, he's making money with his agenda as well. Oh well, Rob, people do silly things to look/feel good, and if the fish change will do it, so be it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidm February 13, 2014 Share February 13, 2014 good thing everyone in Hawaii is vegetarian and never eats any saltwater fish, or I'd wonder if there's inconsistencies there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanM February 13, 2014 Share February 13, 2014 sunscreen kills corals, even if his snorkelers don't bump into them. Anyway, I'm glad there are people fighting for healthy reefs, and I am glad when they take on destructive fishing practices whether aquarium or food, but frankly the aquarium industry does seem like it can't be anything but small potatoes compared to the other huge sources of destruction like runoff, dumping, dredging, etc. It's like the difference between fighting a war with a handgun or poison gas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave w February 13, 2014 Share February 13, 2014 (edited) I don't know if 99% of the fish die within a year, but we on WAMAS have a stilted perspective. As people with larger tanks, state of the art filtration and knowledge, we can make many fish live a long time. But I wouldn't be surprised if the average newbie out there really did have most of his fish die within the first year. Also I don't know what percentage domesticated clownfish are of the total number of fish in the aquarium trade, but other than clownfish the other 99% of the fish in the tank pretty much do come off the reef. I don't blame Snorkel Bob for having an agenda, we aquarists sometimes have hidden agendas too. Even expert aquarists who buy colored carpet anems and get them to live 5 years are taking a rare color morph off the reef that would have lived over 100 years if left alone. But the reefkeepers place in the grand scheme of things is rather small compared to the legions of kids who wade through shallow water with sodium cyanide collecting the floating fish for food. They leave destroyed reef behind them. Snorkel Bob should concentrate on the bigger problems before the smaller ones. What I like about fish breeding is that it solves ethical problems for us aquarists and also solves the disappearance of rare fish that divers want to stay on the reef. It's conceivable that some day all our fish will be cultivated and the aquarium contribution (even if small) to reef destruction can lessen. But we can't deny that we play a role whenever we buy a wild collected animal. And that should prompt us to become better aquarists. Edited February 13, 2014 by dave w Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lutz123 February 13, 2014 Share February 13, 2014 I agree that the numbers seem high, but have heard stories of collectors that have very high death rates so perhaps the numbers are taken there. I also prefer captive bred or cultured, or hopefully at least a more reputable collector. I saw a story on Chinese prawn farms recently. You would never eat imported prawns if you saw it - yuck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave w February 13, 2014 Share February 13, 2014 (edited) It should go without saying that nearly every aquarist that joins a local club like WAMAS does it to become a better aquarist and kill fewer fish. WAMAS members are more the answer than the problem. But I can't help but think of a woman I used to work with who had always kept freshwater tanks. One day she made the jump to saltwater. Every week she told me which beautiful new fish she had purchased from a local fish store. I kept trying to politely tell her that what she was buying for looks could not possibly last in her tank without special care. I lent her my books and everything, but most of her new fish died within a few weeks. It took at least a year for her to stop the impulse buying and subsequent killing. I am at the opposite end of the spectrum, investing thousands of dollars and hours into an environment in which I hope to make reef organisms thrive. I do it because I have a hard time pulling a dead fish off the bottom of the tank and knowing my part in the aquarium trade. Edited February 13, 2014 by dave w Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimlin February 14, 2014 Share February 14, 2014 good thing everyone in Hawaii is vegetarian and never eats any saltwater fish, or I'd wonder if there's inconsistencies there. I seen several fishermen here who caught several 12inch+ tangs and said they are good eatins. I was rather surprised that people actually ate tangs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbartco February 14, 2014 Share February 14, 2014 Snorkel Bob's numbers have absolutely no science behind any of his claims. He ignores scientific researchers numbers and suggestions. Scare tactics and playing off emotion are great methods to push an agenda. Surprised he doesn't have Jenny McCarthy as a spokesperson... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveS February 14, 2014 Share February 14, 2014 While I don't disagree with some of the numbers, I have trouble with statistics like The aquarium trade fills 80% of all tanks in the U.S. with Hawaii reef fish, 99% of which die in a year. Start at the collector and work your way through the supply chain from wholesalers to retailers to owners. I don't know of its 99% but the mortality is depressingly high. Few will provide all the numbers as it isn't good for business. All we can do as hobbyist is know and try to minimize our negative impact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimlin February 14, 2014 Share February 14, 2014 I think the high mortality rate is from sick fish collected. A store here in Hawaii which ships fish to the mainland collect a good portion of their livestock. Everytime I go in there, I see tanks filled with sick fish and I did not see any type of quarantine system. They dont have the time to make sure fish are healthy before they are shipped. My fish got velvet recently after a 50% water change using natural Hawaiian sea water and if left untreated all my fish except the gobies would have died so I can see the high death rates in the hobby. It makes me wonder what the fish mortality rate is in the ocean from diseases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OcalaReefGirl February 16, 2014 Share February 16, 2014 I agree that a lot of the problem is with the collection and shipping of the fish and they whole system could be overhauled to make it less stressful and give the collected fish a better chance at survival. When I used to work at a fish store you expected to get fish that died in transit and a few fish to die in a few days from them not eating or already having disease. It is amazing how many fish are tank bred these days. Hopefully in the next 20 years well will be able to tank breed pygmy angels and other attractive fish. Come on Dave W, get a move on it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave w February 16, 2014 Share February 16, 2014 I'm trying as fast as I can, but alas I have been slowed down by so many things. Hopefully in a couple of weeks I'll have glass on the tank and a milestone will be reached. I hope the technology to grow pygmy angels will be the same for tangs and other pelagic spawners, there are many hurdles to overcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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