arking_mark February 24, 2016 Author Share February 24, 2016 Audio = Tunze magnet on glass Visual = Moving light to place food The food is always placed in the same spot. The OSF mostly goes to that spot when the food is placed. The OSF shows no fear of my hand and even continues to graze live coral when I am reaching to remove it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cpu933k February 24, 2016 Share February 24, 2016 Audio = Tunze magnet on glass Ha, my fish got scared whenever I used the magnet to clean the glass, so I started conditioning them by cleaning the glass right before feeding. They are now no longer scared of it and one of them even follows the magnet around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanM February 24, 2016 Share February 24, 2016 I wish you well with this fish, but when I see updates to this thread I click on them with a feeling of dread that the next update is going to be mourning a beautiful, but now dead fish. I'm of the opinion that for "expert" level fish like this if you feel the need to ask for advice on how to get it to eat or how to keep the water quality good in a tiny tank you are really not qualified to be attempting it. Matt Pederson has some success with this species, but you're no Matt Pederson. Almost no one is. I can count on one hand the number of people in WAMAS I would think could do well with this fish (I'm definitely not one of them). All that said, I've met you. You're a nice guy. I don't agree with your decision to buy this very pretty fish, but I hope you succeed in getting it to not die in the coming weeks and to thrive in your care for many years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arking_mark February 25, 2016 Author Share February 25, 2016 AlanM- 1st – Ouch!! 2nd – Valid points. 3rd – Self-defense… With over 20 year of experience, I can tell you I will NEVER be an ‘expert’. If there is one thing I’ve learned is the more I learn the more I know I don’t know. 20 years ago, many of the things we keep in our tank today would have been bad decisions. However, one of the best things about this hobby is taking on new challenges, learning new things, and pushing the envelope. I read Matt Pedersen’s article several years ago and thought one day I would like to try that. With my 34gal DT all but complete, I decided his fish would be a worthy final addition. I scoured the internet and prepped. So while this was well planned it was probably not as well thought out. Being a new member of WAMAS, I decided to share this journey and leverage the power of our community. Succeed or fail, I was planning on providing lessons learned. For now, I will restrict it to your points. So here we are. 1. “…if you feel the need to ask for advice on how to get it to eat” With the exception of Matt Pedersen’s article, there is darn little about weaning this fish. Having ordered the fish, I reached out to the WAMAS community and was able to get some great ideas and several different acro to help wean the fish. I was able to establish heavy grazing with two of the acros. Using gel food food, I was able to even get the fish to (probably accidently) sample the gel food. I was expecting the acros to die and then coat them. In retrospect, I should have had acro skeletons in advance of purchasing the fish. In addition, I do not believe that this fish can be maintained with acro frags. As soon as a frag gets nipped the polyp retract. To keep this fish alive, you would need a large dedicated acro tank that would allow the OSF to flit from acro to acro. Otherwise, it must be weaned. 2. “..how to keep the water quality good in a tiny tank” Again, well planned but probably not as well thought out. After doing a lot of research into QT setups (I usually use a 5gal bucket with heater, air stone, and frequent water changes), I decided if the cost was right I would setup a permeant QT / Observation tank. I researched tanks and found the Spec V, a 5gal tank with a large sponge filter and media that could probably support a 20gal tank. While the size was small, I would be able to keep the water in sync with my DT with instant water changes. A larger 10-20 gal tank would not allow for an instant water change as too large an impact to the DT. I prefer to use seasoned high quality water for QT / Acclimation. A big mistake made was going for an instant QT by seasoning the filter and media in the DT…this did not work. Regardless, I don’t think a 10gal (maybe even a 20) would handle the current bio-load of coated acro skeletons. So the 5gal with my current regiment and helpful WAMAS advice is working. In retrospect, I would recommend having a dedicated well seasoned and stable 20gal or larger tank with full blown filtration and skimming. 3. “…dread that the next update is going to be mourning a beautiful, but now dead fish” Unfortunately, I have to agree with you here. Per the Pederson article, the stages seem to be the following: - Get the fish eating on live acro [DONE] - Introduce coated acro once they start nipping at the live acro [DONE] - Within a week or two the OSF should be accepting prepared food [1st week complete; honestly not much success] - Now you can try withholding live coral feeding; at this point the OSF will be thinner [TBD; Too true L] - If you have not had success, you need to reevaluate efforts and continue to offer live coral [i may be doing this now] - At one month, the OSF should be accepting prepared food and you can introduce other foods to vary diet and see what else works - By 2 months the OSF should be adding back body fat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arking_mark February 25, 2016 Author Share February 25, 2016 For those following along, it may be time to reassess my efforts as I feel the first week of coated acro skeletons has not been particularly successful. Days 12 and 13 have followed previous routine. Only change up has been when I provide the live acro. I thought by randomizing the acro feed, it would not condition the OSF to wait for acro during the day. However, I am getting very little feeding response from the coated acro skeletons. A couple of options: 1. Continue course for another week. Try additional food coatings. 2. Continue course for another week. Reduce coated acro skeletons offerings and increase live acro offerings 3. Take a break. Add OSF to DT, it would have access to more acro and more pods. Then after a couple of weeks move OSF back to QT for weaning. Options 1&2 risk starvation. Option 3 still risks starvation (maybe slower) as I do not believe anything but a very large acro tank can meet OSF nutritional needs. My observations indicate that the acro frags retract their polyps and the OSF receives little nutrition from an individual (or several) frags. If it can’t be weaned, it cannot survive in most aquarium setups. Thoughts or other ideas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Origami February 25, 2016 Share February 25, 2016 This is tough. If #3 cannot sustain it then you'll be forced to try this process again as it will be faced with a dwindling supply. However, in its favor, this is more likely to elicit its natural response and it may have time to recover and put on some weight again. If it is clearly getting thin, before it becomes weak, you'll want to consider resetting the process and doing what you must to take advantage of its natural feeding response enough to get it healthy again. This means feeding it corals that it will approach and consume and possibly staying away from the transition solutions that you've been offering. This would likely be an expensive proposition. After it's healthy and has some fat reserves to draw upon, you can attempt the transition again. At this point, though, it seems like this attempt has been largely unsuccessful and, while you're learning first hand by going through the process, the OSF is in steady, unsustainable decline. To continue too far risks the fish reaching a state where its health is compromised and where it may not be able to survive in a community aquarium or even in QT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arking_mark February 25, 2016 Author Share February 25, 2016 Based on my reading of Pedersen's article, I am still in the weaning phase and may have success. All his deaths occurred in the 1st 2 weeks. Not to jinx myself but today is day 14. However, my confidence is low that this fish is making weaning progress at this point. The last two days of coated acro skeleton offerings elicited almost NO feeding response. Previously, the OSF would lightly graze. It still grazes heavily on two of my acro and has shown interest in a 3rd. Adding it to the DT may just be a reprieve...and I don't mind if it decimates my acro. I don't think it can as the OSF goes after the polyps which retract when picked on. Most likely the coral will only have polyp extension at night after being picked on for a few days. I suppose there is a chance that it could survive on pods...as it avidly hunts them all day in the QT. The truth is this OSF may never wean to prepared foods. If that's the case, I am happy to see if it can survive in the DT and beg WAMAS members for acro frags. The other truth is this OSF may wean in the next week with the current protocol. If that's the case, throwing it into the DT now may lead to no weaning and a slower starvation. I just don't have a great feel for the strength of the OSF and if the acro offerings are providing much nutrition. Really just curious to see what others think. I am on the fence... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Origami February 25, 2016 Share February 25, 2016 I think that you know what I'm saying. You're there to see the physical condition of the fish (whether or not it's belly is caved, for example) and are in a better position to assess whether or not you're approaching a point where you can't reestablish a course back to health. Once you get beyond that point, it won't matter much what you do - you'll lose the fish. If that point is a week off, then you've got some time to continue the effort. If it's a day away, you need to make a choice now. Either way, it's good that you're thinking now about your "Plan B." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanM February 25, 2016 Share February 25, 2016 I had no idea you had this many years of experience in salt water. It sounds like you did your homework on the fish even though I didn't get that impression from the start. Hope it does well for you. If you think it would eat rainbow birdsnest you know I have piles of it. 8) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arking_mark February 25, 2016 Author Share February 25, 2016 I actually haven't tried the birds nest as it is attached in the DT. My research did not indicate that it would be a good candidate SPS that the OSF may feed from. But it doesn't hurt to try. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rtelles February 25, 2016 Share February 25, 2016 May be a long shot (albeit an inexpensive one, so worth trying), but there are number of articles online that suggest that OSF's may take to black worms. There's also a youtube video that shows a pair chomping away. They're really cheap if you can find them (tropical lagoon in silver spring pretty much always has them), and they seem to illicit a really strong feeding response from finicky eaters. Worst-case, the OSF doesn't go for them and you've lost $5 or so. Best-case, you have a dense and nutritious staple food to work with. You may also want to give newly hatched baby brine shrimp a shot. I may as well be Paul B at this point, but you can't knock what works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arking_mark February 25, 2016 Author Share February 25, 2016 Another worthy suggestion. My OSF showed no interest in brine shrimp or any food in the water column...but I will check my LFS for black worms. I will be near Tropical Lagoon tomorrow if I can't find them at Congressional. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cpu933k February 25, 2016 Share February 25, 2016 Both congressional and TL usually have them in stock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WheresTheReef February 25, 2016 Share February 25, 2016 Paul B also had that feeder that might work in your case as well. Might take to it like the pods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arking_mark February 25, 2016 Author Share February 25, 2016 Baby brine shrimp feeder. Great weekend project! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanM February 26, 2016 Share February 26, 2016 (edited) Mark, I have brine shrimp eggs. Lots of em. Regular ones and also EZ-egg which are decapitated in liquid. Kept in fridge. If you want them to try it out you are welcome to them. Edit: Haha, not decapitated, decapsulated. Darn phone autocorrect. Edited February 26, 2016 by AlanM auto-correct correction Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YHSublime February 26, 2016 Share February 26, 2016 In addition to blackworms, I know that white worms are VERY easy to culture and sustain. If you can get a feeding response. Personally, I would add it to the DT and hope for the best, but you can probably make a better call with the visual and most recent experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arking_mark February 26, 2016 Author Share February 26, 2016 Once again, WAMAS provided some good advice and ideas. Since I make be close to success or failure, I decided to hedge my approach. So here is the plan: 1. Go with option 2. Provide live acro for extended time twice a day and coated acro skeleton for just one meal. This will hopefully provide additional nutrition and strengthen the fish. 2. Try baby brine shrimp (hatching as I write) and black worms which I'll pickup tomorrow. 3. Special coating technique. The gel food is basically dry fish jello. Add water and refrigerate to make firm. So take a prepared food add it to water and add the dry gel. Mix well and dip acro skeletons while mixture is like mud, then refrigerate. This should be much easier to do and pride the ability to introduce other prepared foods. 4. If the OSF, is not eating well by Sunday…into DT. 5. Try to wean at a future date…assuming the OSF does not starve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Origami February 26, 2016 Share February 26, 2016 It's good to plan ahead. Wishing good luck to the both of you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rtelles February 26, 2016 Share February 26, 2016 I'm glad to hear that you're giving baby brine shrimp a shot. Since you've already seen the OSF exhibit a feeding response with pods, I'd be more confident that he may take to them. I'd highly recommend the feeder as well (which it seems like you're going to make), since it'll concentrate the pods into one area and make life easier for the OSF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PupChow February 27, 2016 Share February 27, 2016 Following along and especially interested to see if the OSF takes live black worm. Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arking_mark February 28, 2016 Author Share February 28, 2016 (edited) Day 14: - Maintained schedule and water changes and AmQel. Ammonia in check. - Found black worms at a not so local LFS - No interest in black worms - Baby brine shrimp ready; built feeder; introduced feeder; No interest yet - Provided live acro with coated acro skeletons; OSF will now occasionally sample coated skeletons - Re-read Pedersen article; it appears that the coated skeletons are provided throughout the day and not just at feeding times; can't do that in a QT; bio-load of coated skeletons is way to big - Tried making a gel mix; partially successful and was able to coat skeletons; will have to play with the mix; definitely easier Day 15: - Woke up to an OSF in respiratory distress; checked water and the nitrites were a little high (.25); considered another water change but decided to finally try the acclimation box; this may allow me to continue weaning with a much heavier bio load; and I was considering a move to DT anyway. - Quickly jerry-rigged the box in the DT; as the QT and DT are in sync, I just moved the OSF and within 30 minutes fish was back to normal - Continued to try to wean the OSF in acclimation box; added live acro and coated acro; periodically removing and switching up live acro - My concern with the acclimation box was that the presence of other acro would distract the OSF from weaning. This turned out not to be a problem. - I still feel that this OSF will NOTwean due to little interest in the coated acro, no interest in black worms, no interest in brine shrimp, and baby brine shrimp feeder TBD; On the positive note, I get very good feeding response to live acro and will get a nip or two from coated acro skeletons We'll see how we do today...I can now try any foods that I want without bio load concerns (within reason). Edited February 28, 2016 by arking_mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cpu933k February 28, 2016 Share February 28, 2016 I'm really surprised that you were getting so much ammonia in your qt. I suspect maybe your sponge filter wasn't fully cycled and therefore your qt was undergoing a cycle (the rise in ammonia was more from bacteria die off from your sponge than from the food/fish waste). When I QT my fish, they initially undergo tank transfer every 3 days - so no biofiltration at all and I have never had any ammonia issues and I feed heavily. Also nitrites aren't really toxic in the levels typically found in reef tanks. http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-06/rhf/index.php Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arking_mark February 29, 2016 Author Share February 29, 2016 I am at a loss to what is going on. Have another thread on this... http://wamas.org/forums/topic/77116-late-night-help-ammonia-in-qt/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arking_mark March 2, 2016 Author Share March 2, 2016 Days 16, 17, 18: - Having moved the OSF to the acclimation box has allowed me to try a couple of new things - I've settled on providing the coated acro skeleton for extended times while offering live acro with and without it - The OSF behavior has changed in the acclimation box. It now typically now locks in a resting position coming out to pick on the live acro. It will occasionally pick on coated acro...but not much. - Additionally I have been able try flake, pellet, rods, Mysis, and LRS. It has seemed to sample large white peices on the bottom of the box, but nothing else. - Still thinking of adding the OSF to the tank shortly as it does not seem to be making much progress Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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