Orange Spotted Filefish Adventure! Follow along!

[arking_mark]

Days: 19, 20, 21:

- Routine has been relatively the same. Live and coated acro in the early morning; removing live acro b4 going to work; try some prepared food, add back live acro in the evening.

- Limited observation indicates the OSF bow ignores coated acro.

 

Day 22:

- Spent a lot of tine observing the OSF behavior and concluded that this fish ignores the coated acro skeletons

- For better or worse I added the fish to the DT.

[YHSublime]

Fingers crossed. I suspected this would be the outcome.

 

 

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[arking_mark]

For better or worse, I have gained lots of knowledge and will provide lessons learned and a revised approach for my next attempt. While I hope OSF will thrive in the DT, realistically, it has a week or two at most. My best hope is knowing that it eats pods and that the baby brine shrimp feeder I built can supply it with more than enough nutrition. If only it can figure out that the feeder has food...it ignored it in the QT and acclimation box.

[elbowdeep88]

I have been following along. You have persisted in ways that most would not. Maybe not the best plan/execution, but you are learning from mistakes. I am still hoping for the best, but thank you for your willingness to share your journey with us either way. It would have been easier to keep it all private, so thanks for your humility that allows us all to learn together.

[matt]

Tough calls....daily. Good luck to you.

 

Another thought but perhaps too late would be connecting the display and a Fowler for the OSF. Long term, you're probably going to need both a stable environment and a means of keeping him from eating every single cookie in the cookie jar at once.

[arking_mark]

One of my observations is that the OSF cannot "eat" acro in a tank. When picked on the acro polyps get pulled in. So my theory is you need a reefs worth of acro that allows the OSF to not pick on the same acro spots. At the end of the day, I'll know. If my tank is picked clean, then I'm wrong. If the polyps come out at night and the acro continues to grow, I'm right.

[arking_mark]

While the OSF has been moved to the DT, weaning was a fail.  While everything is fresh, I wanted to document what didn’t work (mistakes):

1.      First and foremost was not being prepared enough.  It was like having your 1^st puppy or baby.  While I had read lots of information, I lacked actual knowledge and experience.

2.     Trying to do too much at once.  Having to order online, I figured I would order what I needed for a permanent Pico QT / observation tank.  Trying to set this up while weaning a fish was not a good idea…ended up scrapping the permanent Pico / QT and just added everything to the DT.

3.     Instant QT did not work!  Not sure what exactly didn’t work.  I seasoned the Pico filter in the DT sump for two weeks, added live rock from the DT, added bacteria, and only used DT water for water changes.  Was fighting ammonia the whole time and resorted to daily instant water changes with the DT and AmQel.  (Even today, a week after the OSF has been out of the tank, it continues to cycle…)

4.     Not having live and acro skeletons in advance.  While WAMAS members came through for me in a big way, I should have had these well in advance.  Again, I had one acro.  I figured it would eat the acro and I would then coat it.  In the end, I don’t believe this fish can ‘eat’ acro in a tank setting.  It may get a snack or two, but ultimately the acro just does not extend polyps.

5.     Extended exposure to coated skeletons.  Pedersen’s article indicates 6 coated skeletons offered throughout the day.  As it was unclear if these are just left there and replaced frequently or just offered for a short period of time, I decided that due to my work schedule, I would leave the coated acro while I was at work and give the OSF ample time to graze.  In the end, the OSF was completely ignoring the coated acros.

6.     Not having a pre-set feeding protocol and foods to offer.  Again, relying on Pedersen, I had Rods, which was his recommended food.  When that was not working, I scrambled to offer various foods to see if anything would stick.  In retrospect, I should have set up a logical deliberate diet plan. 

[mogurnda]

I appreciate the frankness and candor of this post.  I was sad when I saw the beginning of this thread, giving the fish about a month or two  to live.  When it was clear that you did not know the preferred food species, and then you stuffed a handful of fish into a pico, I got pretty unhappy with the level of apparent hubris.  

 

I understand the desire to be outside of the box in this hobby.  The hobby advances when people ignore the common wisdom and try "dumb" things.  My approach has been to research exhaustively, plan for months, and then get started.  In the process, I am reminded of how much bad information is  in the hobbyist literature, and even in scientific papers.  Despite the planning, failures happen more often that I like to admit, but I try to learn from those failures.   

 

I almost feel like this thread should be a sticky, because it is both a good illustration to less experienced members as to why certain species should not be kept, and that we can learn from others' mistakes.  This time the experiment didn't seem to work, but anyone reading the thread can get an idea of what might be needed for a serious attempt in the future.

[arking_mark]

Hey. I haven't given up yet. There are still a couple tricks to try.

1. Seeing the other fish eat at feeding time may provide inspiration

2. When feeding, get lots of food on his favorite acro

 

Also, I disagree with NOT keeping this species. There are plenty of examples of success (see YouTube). This is just another expert fish with very little literature.

 

I have lost many many fish over the years for many many reasons. In fact, I am pretty sure most fish in home aquariums has a much shorter lifespan on average. So by some rational, no fish should be kept.

[YHSublime]

Also, I disagree with NOT keeping this species. There are plenty of examples of success (see YouTube). This is just another expert fish with very little literature.

 

I strongly disagree with this statement. Just because somebody has success with something doesn't mean the average hobbyist will.

 

You acknowledge your mistakes, including the purchase and preparation not being thought out in entirety, This is a fish that feeds primarily on SPS, which I would venture to say, unless somebody has an SPS packed tank with a food source less than 3 years old, nearly guarantees starvation.

 

I also think that without trying, there will be no failure, or success, so I can get behind that. BUT I think that before the above quote is spit, each individual should be realistic about the approach they intend to take in order to keep an OSF alive. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

 

 

I understand the desire to be outside of the box in this hobby.  The hobby advances when people ignore the common wisdom and try "dumb" things.  My approach has been to research exhaustively, plan for months, and then get started.  In the process, I am reminded of how much bad information is  in the hobbyist literature, and even in scientific papers.  Despite the planning, failures happen more often that I like to admit, but I try to learn from those failures.  

 

So much of this.

[arking_mark]

I did say EXPERT fish.

[YHSublime]

I did say EXPERT fish.

You did, but I also personally think, that there are few EXPERT hobbyist. Not a stab at you and your venture, just a caution to those that may consider following.

 

 

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[arking_mark]

I agree with that...and I feel like I have grown as an aquarist.

[zygote2k]

CBB still are collected and sold, and many people here buy them anyways- even though they all die within a year. Ever heard of Goniopora?

People always think that their experience will be a little better and that they are going to be the ones that will have success.

IMHO, if these were warm furry creatures, people would be up in arms that these little experiments resulted in death, but since they are 'only' fish and corals that it's really no big deal.

Used to be whenever you wanted to buy a specimen back in the day, you had to bring a water test with you to prove that you actually had the knowledge to keep these animals, but now with the internet and everyone wanting only to make a sale, you can buy practically anything your heart desires.

If this hobby is going to change to a sustainable one, then more stringent controls on the selling of expert or difficult species needs to be enacted, and in some cases like wild caught Goniopora- should be outright banned.

My $0.02.

[paul b]

CBB still are collected and sold, and many people here buy them anyways- even though they all die within a year. Ever heard of Goniopora?

Many people feel that quite a few animals can't be kept, but they refuse to feed them what they were eating in the sea. Every fish can be kept if we feed them and keep them in the environment they are meant to live in. Copperbands are no problem at all nor are mandarins, ruby red dragonettes or a variety of other fish that are considered hard. Yes, if you insist on feeding every thing some commercially bought food like pellets or flakes, very few fish will live. Even most frozen concoctions are a variety of things that we think fish will eat and not only eat, but thrive. A thriving fish means it lives long enough to die of old age which is over ten years for every fish except small gobies, seahorses and pipefish. Most of the fish available should live over 15 years and many will last past 25 years. It is up to us, not the people who make foods or the fish. It is true that many fish can not be kept but that is just because we can't or don't want to provide the correct foods. If we can get the foods, and provide the conditions the fish is used to in the sea, any fish will live. I don't keep OSF any more because I can't continousely provide it with the food it needs. I can try to get it to eat worms, but that is not the proper diet for that fish even if it eats it.

Edited March 7, 2016 by paul b

[rtelles]

Bit of a rant, so feel free to gloss over. I don't think there are many in here who are qualified to comment on whether or not this was a bad venture. Maybe the few who have been keeping fish for a decade, and who they themselves have only figured out what they were doing through trial and error. Many of them did initially comment, but then they offered suggestions, despite their apparent frustration, and that was very much appreciated by some of us relative newbs (I've only got about 2 years). Most of us have tried, and failed to keep specific fish that were our own form of trophy fish. I'd venture to guess that, if mortality was the primary measuring stick of keeping an aquarium, the vast majority of us would be our own version of genocidal maniacs, and we also all contribute to an industry that kills untold numbers of fish before they even make it to wholesalers, who kill untold numbers of fish before they get to retailers, and so on. I've also read plenty of frustrated posts from many of the actual experts in here who, if their post histories are any indication, have lost fish from silliness such as not having a top while owning wrasses or other jumpy fish. Is Mark, if the OSF does die, any worse than an owner of any fish known to jump, including basic fish like clownfish, who doesn't cover the top of their aquarium?There's also been a bit of moral aggrandizing going on in here, often from other relative newbs based on their own posts and histories, and that's a bit frustrating.

 

I saw the first couple of posts and my own immediate thoughts were "poor OSF, it's gonna die soon," but Mark was sincere in his attempt to do everything possible, based on what he knew, to keep it alive and healthy. As he's explained himself, the plan could have been thought out a bit better and less improvisational, but he took everyone's feedback, attempted various ways of keeping it going, and continues to try and do what he can to be successful. So although the attempt may ultimately be in vain, and I do feel bad for the OSF, Mark did much more than I would guess 95% of aquarists would to try and keep a difficult fish. It also hurts because the OSF is such a beautiful little guy. I also feel my own sense of guilt due to fish I've lost for really stupid reasons, most despite doing plenty of background research, so much of the intrinsic frustration I feel is directly linked to my own sad experiences. 

 

All that said, I think, as seems to be the consensus, that some fish are incredibly difficult to keep unless you have a very set plan, and even if you do, that may fail. That's fair, but when someone is open and upfront about it, we should consider it a good thing, although I do agree with others that the OSF, from what I've read, is generally bad news and should possibly not be collected at all or at least be incredibly expensive to make them less desirable as a "try it out" fish. That some fish (CBB, Mandarins, OSF, etc) shouldn't be so readily and easily available, if at all, and that they should come with very specific instructions about how to keep them, so that they'll at least have a fighting chance - I'd imagine most LFS would gladly sell an OSF (or mandarin, or CBB, Dragonet, etc) and tell you that they can be weaned onto prepared foods if you just do x, and we all know that that's bunk. I'm a big fan of LRS reef frenzy, my fish are fans too, but the LRS package has a huge picture of a mandarin right on the cover of their most popular product, and that's the worst kind of false advertising. That's systemic, and there's nothing we can do about it.

 

Lots of random thoughts, but I do find these threads really useful and interesting, and it's one of the reasons that I do appreciate WAMAS, despite the semi-rant. 

[arking_mark]

Couldn't agree more.  For those who want the cliff notes. 

• From a micro level, we are keeping livestock outside their natural inhabitant and putting them in an inherently unsafe position from a health and longevity perspective (minimally: susceptible to human error and equipment failure).
• From a macro level, we are supporting an industry that contributes to the pillaging of our reefs and the deaths of untold number of creatures.  (Aquacultured  marine life is better but also has it issues with death and living conditions)
• There is NO RESPONSIBLE reef keeping only LESS IRRESPONSIBLE reef keeping and everyone draws the line somewhere.  If you are too the left of me, your a tree hugging nut; if your to the right of me your an eco terrorist.  It's all relative.

For me, this hobby is about beauty and the challenge of creating and maintaining a small reef in my home.  As long as your are giving your livestock an OPPORTUNITY to thrive, your LESS IRRESPONSIBLE in my book.

 

Now let's get this thread back on topic...

[arking_mark]

So provided a list of things that didn't work out well.  Here is what did:

1. WAMAS community came through big time with ideas, equipment, and food.  Special thanks to @Monkiboy (ERC) who (until his text messages stop working) was an endless source of ideas, equipment, supplies, and moral support.
2. Multiple acro to stimulate feeding allowed me to identify which acros worked best with my OSF
3. Coating acro with various foods and mixes (Gel, Rods, LRS, Mysis Shrimp, and various dry foods) successfully got the OSF to sample food
4. Half killing an acro allowed me to provided a live and coated acro that got the OSF to continue to sample food
5. Mixing live acro with coated acro also got the OSF to continue to sample food
6. 5gal QT enabled me to keep the water quality stable with instant water changes with my DT (a 10 gal or larger would have been a fail with what happened - however, I wouldn't recommend my approach)
7. Acclimation box allowed me to continue to try to wean with more stable water quality towards the end

[matt]

So how is the fish doing? Sounds like he is still hanging in there ...yes? 

[arking_mark]

Observations of the OSF in DT:

• It has two lower flow hangouts.  Otherwise, it actively grazes acro and pods.
• While in QT and acclimation tank, it only showed interest in a few acro.  In the DT, it shows interest in grazing on 12 of my 15 acro ( all accept Birds of Paradise, Green Birds Nest, and Jedi Mind Trick).  It may be because it is just hungrier or maybe because it is more comfortable in a larger space.
• Can't tell if it continues to loose weight...it was very thin when added to DT.  I estimated it couldn't last more than a week from Saturday.  Maybe the increased access to acro and pods may be working.  I am sticking with my theory that aquarium acro cannot sustain an OSF for now.
• Seems to actively graze when I feed.  Not sure why.  I do turn off the pumps and have been heavily putting food on its favorite acros.  It may be that the acro polyps extend in the presence of food.  It may be that it's picking some of the prepared food...I can't really tell as the larger pieces are not picked at.

[arking_mark]

Couple lessons learned:

1. Need a tank that can handle large bio load from coated skeletons.  Not worth dealing with daily water changes; and fish behavior in acclimation box was less then ideal (size was probably too small and other distractions).
2. Need a feeding protocol with planned progressive foods to sample (all foods in advance including live food)
3. Need several different acro is see which one stimulate best feeding response
4. Need several acro skeletons similar to the acro that stimulates good feeding response
5. Coated skeletons work to get the OSF to sample food.  I think all feedings should be brief (maybe 10 minutes).
6. Brine shrimp feeder was probably a good idea.  Not sure it works with pantyhose...no fish has shown interest when placed in DT (including mandarin). 

[matt]

What are the 12 acro it did seem to try and eat? 

[arking_mark]

I actually don't know them all as I got them from WAMAS members who didn't know or I didn't write down. I intend to post for identification. The ones I know:

Red Monti

Pink Poly Monti

Rainbow Birdsnest

[arking_mark]

Also, the acro may be hard to identify as they were mostly browned out specimens.  Can't spend thousands on weaning a OSF.

[Apcoleman]

Are you lumping all SPS into the acro category?  My understanding of this fish is that it only eats  A. Millepora which would be the reason it isn't even looking at montis and birdsnest.

 

 

•  it shows interest in grazing on 12 of my 15 acro ( all accept Birds of Paradise, Green Birds Nest, and Jedi Mind Trick).