Late night help! Ammonia in QT

[arking_mark]

Trying to find source of ammonia in QT. Keeps spiking...help appreciated.

 

Options:

- Identify source / issue and correct

- Keep doing 80% water changes from DT to QT

- Move livestock to aquarium fry saver in DT

 

Additional details:

- Tried to set up an instant QT with Fluval Spec V (5.5 gal tank) mainly for Orange Spotted Filefish weaning

- Put Spec V filter in DT sump for two weeks to season

- Set up QT with DT water and a little live rock

- Added ordered livestock which included Filefish, Firefish, Yellow Watchman Goby, Rainsford Goby, Pistol Shrimp, 5 nassarius snails, and browned out acro for OSF

- Fed fish dry mix, smeared gel on acro and removed gel after ~2 hrs

- Measured ammonia between .25 and .5 and nitrite at .25

- Removed snails and prematurely added Firefish and Rainsford to DT to reduce QT load

- Did 80% water change from DT to QT and then measured 0s

- About 6 hrs later ammonia is up to .25

- Performed another 80% water change from DT to QT

 

Potential sources:

- Livestock and filter not mature enough

- Filter bringing in something from DT (does have collonista snails, mini stars, and pods...) that is dying off

- Live rock from DT

- Acro

 

Any ideas or advice?

[gmerek2]

My advice is more live rock from DT. Any ammonia will make fish sick and not eat and can spike rapidly when you are away at work or sleeping. Keep up with the water changes until the good bacteria builds up. The source is probably uneaten food and dieoff and lack of good bacteria

[arking_mark]

Unfortunately...the rest of my live rock will not fit in QT.

[WheresTheReef]

Make sure and siphon out any uneaten food and check the filter sponge as well. Do you have any ammonia binders like Prime? It will help detoxify ammonia and nitrite. Just be aware that it can react with some meds such as copper. The rock itself might be going through a cycle even if it has some bacteria. The fact that you are measuring some nitrite shows that it has some bacteria, but is still trying to stabilize. Keep up with water changes.

[epleeds]

You need to understand also that with a 5.5 gallon tank, any issue no matter how minor will be magnified. The tank might be 5.5 gallons but with displacement for rock//sand your looking at 4 gallons of water volume. Plus your fish is larger then you anticipated.

 

Personally I wouldn't use a QT less then 20 gallons that way it gives you more water volume and less chance something happening quickly before you have a chance to notice it.

[DaveS]

What epleeds said. This isn't a QT, it's an uncycked pico tank with too much livestock and lots of uneaten food. Way too much stuff going on.

 

You may have been better off with a salt bucket as your QT.

Edited February 15, 2016 by DaveS

[Sharkey18]

Agreed. Also, nothing is "instant" in reefing. 

 

But if the fish is still looking good thats a win. 

 

How's your DT today? 

[arking_mark]

DT looks surprisingly normal.

 

I may just move the fish to the DT...and let it feast on my SPS.

[Der ABT]

I couldn't stop the spikes till I put something in with bacteria...I made a mini biopellet reactor out of a 20 Oz soda bottle and took some pellets out of the main tanks reactor..next thing I knew the qt was running great with a bunch of fish

 

Tried a sponge first....didn't help enough....

[DaveS]

As I understand it, unless you are constantly QTing fish WITHOUT meds that kill bacteria, the primary form of amonia control for QT is water changes. You don't want to use Live rock or other organisms from the DT as they could bring is pathogens. Once the QT is over, you should be sterilizing everything which would kill any bacteria that did establish themselves in the QT system.

[Anemone]

Unfortunately...the rest of my live rock will not fit in QT.

Break a piece? You've got a challenging enough fish as it is with the dietary needs, but you've got to address the bio filtration or the fish may die first. Consider suspending feeding until the water quality is more under control.

A bigger container would be better, even if only in a big plastic tub. Then you could move rock without breaking it, and more volume would give better stability.

[mogurnda]

 

 

What epleeds said. This isn't a QT, it's an uncycked pico tank with too much livestock and lots of uneaten food. Way too much stuff going on.

+1.  You need stability.  Get a tub or a larger tank.  Looks like a train wreck unfolding

Edited February 15, 2016 by mogurnda

[YHSublime]

Unless you're going to go grab a bigger container or tank and plan on doing a proper quarantine, I think placing it in your DT is the best course of action. Just my two cents.

[WheresTheReef]

First, don't get discouraged or over react. If it were me, I would get a 20g tank with eggcrate top even if I had to put it on the floor (which I've done before). Get a brute trash can, rinse off well and start making lots of new saltwater. Since time is important you can use tap water with a dechlorinator. If you want, you can have a second container for making rodi water for the next batch. Make sure your heater is large enough to handle the increased water volume. Best of luck and keep patient.

[Anemone]

Got any sodium thiosulfate handy (Seachem Prime, etc.?) Besides being a standard dechlorinator in freshwater, it also is good for ammonia and nitrite in a crisis. At 5x dose it is supposed to bind up both nitrite and ammonia, making them non toxic to fish. Need to repeat dosing every 24 hrs or so according to package directions. Your water will still test the same, but it is just supposed to prevent toxic effects on fish. FWIW.

[arking_mark]

Thanks for all the advice and help from Monkiboy (ERC).

- QT was reading ammonia between 0 and.25 most of the day. Based on feedback from Monkiboy (ERC) and others I focused on the water quality.

- After afternoon feeding, did a 50% water change and modded the QT with a very small power head and rotating deflector. Also added an easily removable filter behind the overflow to make after feeding clean up easier

- Bought ammonia detoxifier and nitrifying bacteria to add to the tank. Used them both per manufactures directions.

- QT appears to be stable…0 ammonia!! We’ll keep testing.

[YHSublime]

@monkiboy is a saint. St. Monkiboy we call him around these parts.

[arking_mark]

Ok. This is still bothering me and I am at a loss for explanation. I have a routine that maintains the QT water quality. Basically evening 80% water change and AmQel if readings are high before then. Morning readings are zero or close to zero as all food and 80% water change has occurred the evening before. This morning, the ammonia was high (about .25). This was after a day of reduced prepared food feeding (one instead of 2), but with additional live acro feeding. I also left the live acro overnight as I was going to reoffer it in the morning. The live coral is perfectly healthy and nothing else has changed. Where did this ammonia come from and why is the QT not handling it yet? Tank has been up for 2 weeks, started with a seasoned filter, and augmented with bacteria. It should have been an instant QT and with 80% water changes should not have ammonia in the morning. There has to be something I am missing.

[Origami]

Do you realize that Ammonia test kits using Nessler reagents are not compatible with Amquel? It's on the label. You'll get false readings from them. You'll need a salicylate-based ammonia test test kit, like from API. 

 

Go about 1/3 of the way down this article: http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/water-testing

 

It says:

"Ammonia tests. There are two basic types of ammonia test kits. Nessler kits have one reagent, that is, a single bottle of liquid or one tablet to dissolve in your water sample. If your ammonia test kit registers in shades of amber, it's Nessler. They generally are quicker to use, but ammonia-locking products (e.g., AmQuel) will cause Nessler kits to give false positive readings. The other type of kit is salicylate based, with two sets of reagents. If your ammonia test kit registers in shades of yellow to green to blue, it's salicylate. Salicylate test kits are unaffected by AmQuel and similar products, but they do take longer to develop a reading. If your water has chloramines and you're using AmQuel or somesuch, you'll need a salicylate NH3 test.

 

"Don't test for ammonia right after a water change. If you're too liberal with the dechlorinator, you could be getting some false-positive ammonia test results that way, too. According to Seachem at their website, harmless sodium thiosulfate, such as found in Seachem's Prime conditioner, will give false positive readings for ammonia, whether the tests are based on Nessler's Reagent or on salicylate. What happens is this: the sodium thiosulfate, Na2S2O3, is reacting with the chloride ion that is part of the test reagents. After 24 hours, though, according to Seachem, the Na2S2O3 will have have reacted with chloride ions naturally found in water, and will no longer give such false-positive readings."

[arking_mark]

Using API test kit.

[Origami]

Using API test kit.

Well, it's not that, then. Unless the test kit is giving you unstable readings.

 

You'd think the source of the ammonia would be decomposing organics (excess food, fish and coral slime, fish waste, etc.). You'd also think that your QT filter would be sufficient enough at this point to handle it (unless you've starved the biological filter with all of your water changes - bacteria have to eat, too). 

[arking_mark]

Kit is stable. I always test DT and QT so I can compare colors. DT so far is always 0...comparing QT makes it easier to read.

 

Since the water comes from the DT to the QT, I don't see starving the bacteria.

 

Could be acro sliming or something...but this acro doesn't seem to slime.

 

No acro overnight for tonight and we will see if we are back to morning zeros.

 

The only other thing I could think of is that the 80% water changes also removes the AmQel. As I am only dosing as needed, it could just be a timing thing and that this tank is just continuing to cycle. No amqel, free ammonia spikes...

[Origami]

Open water had some bacteria, but not much really. Surfaces will be home to many many times more.

 

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[Origami]

Good thought on the a question, though. If you're not using it until needed, you're definitely reducing it by 80 percent with those big water changes.

 

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