Ryan's 150g Marineland Deep Dimension!

[Ryan S]

Tank is really bringing me down lately. I started with the following fish:

 

Current Fish List:

1 McCosker's Flasher Wrasse, Male

1 Blue Sided Fairy Wrasse, Female

1 Powder Blue Tang

1 Sailfin Tang

4 Lyretail Anthias, Female

4 Dispar Anthias, Female

1 Lyretail Anthias, Male

3 Blue Eye Cardinalfish

3 Banggai Cardinalfish

(19)

 

I currently have left:

1 Powder Blue Tang

1 Sailfin Tang

2 Lyretail Anthias, Female

1 Dispar Anthias, Female

1 Lyretail Anthias, Male

2 Blue Eye Cardinalfish

1 Banggai Cardinalfish

(9)

 

10 fish lost. I can see the ich on the tangs, but they seem fine, swim around, eat plenty. I am guessing it's dropping the others 1 by 1? The ich attack seemed to work at first, but didn't.

 

I also notice a layer of scum on the surface of the water of the tank, and more so in the overflow area. I can swish it around and the durso will suck it down. The fish act like they can't breathe? A few sit near the top of the water, in the corner, and the male anthias actually has had his mouth out of the water a couple of times. What does this mean? Ich related? Is the surface not being churned/skimmed enough/properly? Maybe a 2nd MP40 would stir the surface more than the single 1 is doing? Or is that all normal, and it's the ich that's killing them all?

 

What should I do? Remove the tangs? Remove them all? Just wait it out? Treat the tank with a chemical or drop the salinity from 1.025 to 1.0xx?

 

I have zero desire to add any fish for the near future (and quite frankly, ever again, that's how I feel right now). I am less concerned with losing $150+ in fish, than them dying in my hands, that bothers me way more than the money, and I know it's my fault for adding too many at once, and too early, but if it was the ich, I don't know if I could've prevented that? (Other than not having got the powder blue tang in the first place, I am 99% sure he brought the ich to the tank and the other tang). If I could do it all over again, I would wait to add the fish, and I would not have got the PBT. Ugh. *bummed*

[SunWyrm]

You can wait it out if you think the worst is over. Just feed them well and keep them very happy.

 

Don't drop the salinity of your main tank - the best treatment for your fish (and the hardest for you to do) is hyposalinity in a qt. However, keep in mind that catching them is going to really stress them out.

Best preventative in the future: keep a qt that you can hypo if/when you see ick on your new fish. I think the normal qt time (8 weeks?) is long enough to see if ick appears on your fish.

 

Also IIRC the wait time of your tank not having ick anymore with your current livestock staying in there and with no new introductions of infected fish/inverts/stuff is 11 months.

 

Another thing to keep in mind-other things you add can be carriers of ick - corals, clams, etc.

 

Disclaimer : just IMHO - I know there's a lot of differing opinions on ick, this is just what I remember from my husband reading up on it and from what I read and also my own personal experinces.

 

 

How much is the surface being churned? I have a powerhead break the surface of the water up so it appears choppy on my tanks since I had a lack of oxygen problem once, though I notice not everyone does this so it may not be the best approach. Also causes tons of salt creep everywhere.

[Ryan S]

my orp is higher now than it used to be. but i just get the feeling like, only a small section above is getting churned and they might be having a hard time breathing. since water is churned in the sump, this is probably not really happening - unless the water in the sump is churned, but the mag 9.5 is too weak for proper turnover, so very little of the sump water actually gets to the DT?

 

as for the ick, i can get a 10g tank and hypo the fish (assuming i can catch them, as you've pointed out). or just leave everything and hope for the best. (i wonder if just removing the PBT would cure the ick faster, or him and the sailfin tang?) if i leave everything, and stuff does live... how long until the ick is gone, on its own? can it flare up once its gone, or once its gone is it gone for good?

[SunWyrm]

Best thing to not stress them, is not to stuff them in a 10g. If you have room, get a plastic storage tote (Rinse very well! maybe even clorox or vinegar clean but rinse well after). I used the large christmas tree storage bins from lowes for my tangs. It gave them the required 48' swim room while they recovered but was shallow enough to maintain. You can also use pvc pipes for them to hide in. The only downside to this is visibility, though I shined a flashlight on their fins to see if the ick was gone or recovering. If you do this, you will need to test nitrates and ammonia multiple times a day and do water changes every or every other day and siphon waste from the bottom. This is a pain to both you and the fish, but isn't as stressful or harmful as other treatments like copper (which IIRC isn't good for tangs is it?).

 

Removing individuals will not help. The eggs have fallen off and probably released and are doing whatever it is that ick things do, like infecting all of your fish.

 

How is everyone acting now? Are they eating well? Losing weight? Scratching a lot? Aside from the breathing, which I think is a different issue, if everyone seems to be doing alright, I would leave them, feed them very high quality stuff and whatever they love. Don't freak them out around the tank. If they are used to and like to see you when you come up that's fine, but if they still hide when you come over - avoid unnecessary contact and fast movements. Avoid all scary things like nets if necessary. Keep your water quality up.

 

Ick can flare up with poor conditions, new additions and other stressors. Keep everyone happy for a year, and they should be in the clear and ick free after that (if my sources are correct). Just qt every fish, critter, and ALL THE THINGS. Dip them and do whatever preventative measures you can.

 

I hate ick, I've lost too many precious fish to it and watched too many of my long time critters suffer through it because of my impatience. I refuse to have it in my new setup.

 

My husband knows a lot more about hypo and ick in general, if you decide to go that route I can have him pm you with advice or whatever help we can assist with.

 

Heading home, I'll come back soon to answer more.

[Ryan S]

thanks for all the info! very helpful! i used to have a 135g tank for 2 years or so, with a yellow tang and blue hippo tang, and never had ich, not once. i think it was this PBT. i regret getting him. i honestly wish i never got him, i bet my tank would be ich free right now if i didnt. is it worth keeping him if he is the cause and will bring it back in the future if stressed?

Edited March 28, 2012 by Ryan S

[Jon Lazar]

It looks like most of your losses are wrasses, anthias, and cardinals. If your PBT is only showing minimal ich spots, I doubt those fish are dying from ich.

 

I think that there's a high mortality rate for newly purchased fish in general...at least that's my experience. If a fish makes it through the first few weeks in my tank, it's good for years. The odds are a bit worse in your case, but part of that may be due to the biofilter not being up to full speed and there may have been an ammonia spike, causing some gill damage. Also, anthias are not the hardiest fish although they can do well once they're established.

 

I would concentrate on maintaining good water quality with no ammonia or nitrite, ensure a healthy diet, and maybe increase aeration through improved circulation.

 

Good luck,

Jon

[roni]

Ryan,

 

Sorry to hear about your losses. Hyposalinity works well but I'd use a bigger tank then a 10 if you want to house all your fish. Also, realistically you'd have to do it for 8 weeks or so and if there are only a few spots of ich, I don't think that's what's killing your fish. Jon's suggestions are good ones. I think most of what's going on is unfortunately a case of adding too much too fast. In general, if you want to add that many fish at once, you need a tank that's already been established with a fair bioload already so that the percentage of new bioload is lower.

 

I definitely feel your pain and went through a period of time where I didn't want to look at my tank either. Just try to keep your head up as best as you can.

[SunWyrm]

Agree with Jon and roni 100%.

 

I go a little overboard when I see ick mentioned I really hope you can get things figured out and also really encourage you to get a qt even if your fish come from reputable places that do their own qt.

 

Keep the PBT as long as he's not a butt. If he's friendly then he's definitely a keeper! He won't continue to give your fish ick. It most likely wasn't even his fault. Tangs are notorious for ick outbreaks, but anything could have carried it in and he was just the first to get a break out. Feel bad for the little guy and give him some extra love.

 

Ick will continue until it's strain weakens. With each cycle it gets weaker and your fish will get better. Like I said earlier, in the better part of a year it will be gone from your system with diligence.

 

 

Your tank is gorgeous. Keep your chin up. If it helps, stick to wamas member fish/stuff for a little while, after everything stabilizes again, until you get a qt system going. They tend to be hale and hearty compared to newly caught fish, it helps after you suffer a loss like this.

[Ryan S]

Thank you all, I really appreciate it. I have a few small patches of cyano I've spotted on rocks in the tank as well. I assume these are spots with the least flow. I see the red and the bubbles, but I am not too worried about that now. Have brown on the sand (diatoms?); cyano sprouting up; and 2 aiptasia heads on a zoa frag I got (waiting until next week and going to have Evan help me remove them before they take over); coupled with the dying fish; and all the dead SPS; I am not giving up, but I am definitely frustrated and don't even want to look at the tank right now. It's sad/embarrassing to me. Heck, even 1 of the 15 florida rics is dying - it's withering tiny and going to disappear, the other 14 seem okay, but that's just another example.

 

6 weeks in, and I guess it's where it should be, just wish I had been patient! It's only my fault, simple as that. I will continue doing 10% water changes every weekend, hopefully everything magically turns around at some point? That large order of frags from Mr Coral will arrive next tuesday the 2nd. (20 frags total - 15 are SPS). He kindly held them for nearly 4 weeks (as of next week) for me, so my tank would be better established than it was March 6th when I placed the order, plus 4 weeks after being cut means they should be healed up pretty well. I am going in assuming they will all die in my tank - but maybe, maybe the tank is further along now that the SPS will survive? Evan has offered to hold them for me if I want, maybe I should take him up on that and let him hold them for like 2 months or something until my tank is better off?

 

I want to start getting SPS colonies, but if I can't keep the frags alive, I don't want to risk $75 on a colony that will die too. At least with frags it's a cheap way to "test the tank". So I guess we'll see.

 

Tomorrow I am picking up the PAR meter from Chad, so that should provide some valuable information about the PAR in the tank from the radions.

 

Just trying to keep my head up.

Edited March 29, 2012 by Ryan S

[surf&turf]

Sorry Ryan!!!

[Der ABT]

i dont think it will take two more months, i bet it will be a little less time than that.

I have PLENTY of free frags for you to attempt to keep alive...once you see them doing well its a good sign...and if they die no worries...just means less Calcium they are taking out of my tank.

 

Glad your not thinking of getting out, your tank will be amazing once you give it a little time....im sure having a nice tank prior to this makes it even worse...it was all going well before why is it not now but....again

good things take time in reefing...

 

we will get ya thru this haha.

[Novi]

Its just like what everyone has already said Ryan. You got excited (who doesn't) and just added too much too soon. I am almost 4 weeks in and I have zilch in my tank. Ammonia is just about nil. Just a very small trace of Nitrites left. And the Nitrates are steady dropping.

I have had the tank covered with towels and the lights off for 3 days now. Also skimming wet and I can see its doing a good job of getting rid of all the hair algae I had. DUDE!!! It was like 10 inches long just flowing in the water!! Looked pretty but no thank you!!!

 

Dont give up. Stick with it. Everything will turn out fine. EVERYONE goes thru rough patches like this. EVERYONE!

[Ryan S]

Tank Parameters today, 3/31/2012, 7 weeks into the tank:

 

Salinity = 1.023 (low)

Temperature = 78.4 (ok)

pH = 7.96 (ok)

ORP = 392 (ok)

Ammonia = 0.0 ppm (ok)

Nitrite = 0.25 ppm (high)

Nitrate = 5.0 ppm (high)

Phosphate = 0.14 ppm (high)

Alk = 7.67 dhK (low)

Cal = 420 ppm (ok)

Magnesium = 1100 ppm (low)

 

Plan:

1. Adding some BRS MAG solution to get that up to 1300 ppm.

2. Raising daily dosing of Alk a couple more mL/day to get that up to 9.00 dhK.

3. Changed out GFO, should help lower phosphate from 0.14 ppm to 0.0 ppm.

4. When I do water change tomorrow, I will add 1.030 salinity salt to raise that up from 1.023 towards 1.026.

5. Nitrate/Nitrite, don't know how to lower these besides my weekly 10% water changes?

 

Ich is still visible in the tank. Fish still alive are:

1 Powder Blue Tang

1 Sailfin Tang

1 Dispar Anthias, Female

2 Blue Eye Cardinalfish

1 Banggai Cardinalfish

(6)

[Ryan S]

Here is my new Red Planet frag from jstlsn. *fingers crossed*

 

[Fishie]

Ryan do u have any cleaner shrimp.

I just picked up a cleaner wrasse as well and it's doing some cleaning on the tangs.

Dropping salinity, increasing temp to 80-81 and running your uv sterilizer , few cleaners and a cleaner wrasse ....good food dipped in garlic should get that ich under control.

[rocko918]

Here is my new Red Planet frag from jstlsn. *fingers crossed*

 

 

Why would you put anything else in your tank. You need to leave it alone and take care of the fish. Try and stop the urge to put anything else in the tank for a while. Ur wasting money.

 

fix this first...

Salinity = 1.023 (low)

Temperature = 78.4 (ok)

pH = 7.96 (ok)

ORP = 392 (ok)

Ammonia = 0.0 ppm (ok)

Nitrite = 0.25 ppm (high)

Nitrate = 5.0 ppm (high)

Phosphate = 0.14 ppm (high)

Alk = 7.67 dhK (low)

Cal = 420 ppm (ok)

Magnesium = 1100 ppm (low)

Edited April 1, 2012 by rocko918

[Jan]

I have to agree. Corals don't do too well with 1.023SG. They need a higher SG.

 

Your PH is low along with your Alk and Mag. Your Nirite, which should be "0", phosphates and nitrates are too high. Your params need to be stable before you add anything else. After reading all of this I don't think your main problem is the ich. I don't think you lost all those fish from ich. I think you lost them from nitrite and unstable params. Nitrite, even in the smallest amount, can kill some fish faster than ammonia.

 

Increase water changes to bring down the Nitrites and Nitrate. Try to get rid of the phosphates by using something with GFO; phosban,chemipure elite, etc. Read the instructions for how many units you'll need for your size tank. Bring up your SG, PH and mag.

 

What is your water flow like? The reason I ask is because in a previous post you said you see scum on the surface of the water. that indicates to me you do not have enough flow. Point a powerhead to the surface to get the gunk moving so your skimmer can do it's job. that surface scum also blocks oxygen from getting into the water. What are you using to move water? Are you skimming? Skim wet. Cut back on feedings.

 

It appears as though your tank had not finished cycling when you added the fish. Adding the fish created more ammonia and more nitrite. When you're dealing with nitrite I'm a firm believer that you must test often and change water often, especially when you have livestock in your tank. If it's from something dying and rotting in your tank you need to find it and remove it. A little ammonia can be dealt with with Amqual(sp) or ammolock(sp), but nitrite, as I sadi before, is a killer even in small levels.

 

Why would you put anything else in your tank. You need to leave it alone and take care of the fish. Try and stop the urge to put anything else in the tank for a while. Ur wasting money.

 

fix this first...

Salinity = 1.023 (low)

Temperature = 78.4 (ok)

pH = 7.96 (ok)

ORP = 392 (ok)

Ammonia = 0.0 ppm (ok)

Nitrite = 0.25 ppm (high)

Nitrate = 5.0 ppm (high)

Phosphate = 0.14 ppm (high)

Alk = 7.67 dhK (low)

Cal = 420 ppm (ok)

Magnesium = 1100 ppm (low)

Edited April 1, 2012 by Jan

[Jan]

I need to be a little more clear here about nitrites and water changes. When I have nitrites, which I've only had in a tank that's cycling, I leave it alone and let the tank cycle. I suggested you up the water changes because you already have livestock in that tank. If it had no livestock I'd say let it run it's course.

 

I have to agree. Corals don't do too well with 1.023SG. They need a higher SG.

 

Your PH is low along with your Alk and Mag. Your Nirite, which should be "0", phosphates and nitrates are too high. Your params need to be stable before you add anything else. After reading all of this I don't think your main problem is the ich. I don't think you lost all those fish from ich. I think you lost them from nitrite and unstable params. Nitrite, even in the smallest amount, can kill some fish faster than ammonia.

 

Increase water changes to bring down the Nitrites and Nitrate. Try to get rid of the phosphates by using something with GFO; phosban,chemipure elite, etc. Read the instructions for how many units you'll need for your size tank. Bring up your SG, PH and mag.

 

What is your water flow like? The reason I ask is because in a previous post you said you see scum on the surface of the water. that indicates to me you do not have enough flow. Point a powerhead to the surface to get the gunk moving so your skimmer can do it's job. that surface scum also blocks oxygen from getting into the water. What are you using to move water? Are you skimming? Skim wet. Cut back on feedings.

 

It appears as though your tank had not finished cycling when you added the fish. Adding the fish created more ammonia and more nitrite. When you're dealing with nitrite I'm a firm believer that you must test often and change water often, especially when you have livestock in your tank. If it's from something dying and rotting in your tank you need to find it and remove it. A little ammonia can be dealt with with Amqual(sp) or ammolock(sp), but nitrite, as I sadi before, is a killer even in small levels.

 

 

[CaptainRon]

Just let the tank STABILZE and don't touch it, other than keeping it stable, for a couple months. PATIENCE and stable parameters will prevent you from killing more fish and corals.

[Fishie]

Could it be high because of the number of fatalities ... They are decomposing causing ammonia and leading to nitrite spikes cause not enough colonies of beneficial bacteria for consuming the nitrites are built..

Are there any alive inverts in there...if they are dying to ich I would still add some natural ich combatants.

[Ryan S]

Thank you Fishie, Rocko, Jan, and Ron. You're all correct.

 

I couldn't pass up the Red Planet frag. Hopefully it will be okay.

 

Should I start doing 2 10% water changes per week? Or just do 1 per week and wait a month and see how the system parameters are?

 

Jan - I have 1 MP40w for flow, I think I need another.

[rocko918]

10% water changes are really not going to do anything for your size tank. I would do a larger change once every 2 weeks. then see where you are are a month down the road.

[Fishie]

U can move the mp40 higher up to churn the water more or get another power head and aim it higher ...while another mp40 would be nice ...I don't think it will be a requirement...

Plenty other not so expensive ways to improve flow..

 

But yea long term another mp40 will be good.

[DaveS]

 

Plan:

4. When I do water change tomorrow, I will add 1.030 salinity salt to raise that up from 1.023 towards 1.026.

 

Instead of adding high salinity water during a water change to bring up the salinity in the whole tank, just add more regular salinity water. The salinity will increase gradually as the tank evaporates. This is a much more gradual and preferred way to raise salinity. Works to raise tank salinity or hypo salinity from QT.

[Ryan S]

Does ich look like lice? I didn't clean the sides of the tank for a few days, and they are swarming with tiny white bugs (not copepods, much smaller). I assumed it was the ich parasites on the sides of the tank? I brushed them off with the mag float, but they'll come right back. I've seen the white spots on the fish, but never seen the parasites on the glass, so I just wanted to make sure it was the same thing and not something else.