Increased dosing/Decreased Alkalinity

[YHSublime]

Hey WAMAS,

 

I have a question that's needing an answer before I start to knee jerk and react. 

 

My alkalinity has slowly been dropping over the past couple of weeks. I have recently increased my dosing (ESV) at the continual 1:1 ratio, and my alkalinity has continued to drop even further! Back around the very end of June, my alkalinity dropped from 7.5 to about 6.5, so obviously the logical solution was my consumption has increased. This makes sense, as I have recently added a pretty decent sized piece (wall hammer,) and have a small clam. 

 

I increased each solution from 38 to 45ml per day and just back from a quick trip and my Alk has dropped down to 5.1

 

Couple of things to note that I have checked:

Yes, my doser is working

yes, my dosing containers are dropping at a 1:1 ratio

No, I have no done a water change

I have added a big wall hammer and I have a clam, wall hammer is new, so possible consumption has dramatically increased. 

I took my dogs with me on my trip, so there has been no breathing in this house for almost 3 days, so I'm sure my PH has changed. 

 

Is it possible my consumption could increase that quickly? Should I just increase my dosing? 

[wildcrazyjoker81]

Just have to double-check, but have you tested with two different tests to verify that reading. That does seem to be a bit ridiculous of a drop when you upped your doser. Were the jugs of ESV new before you left?

Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk

[YHSublime]

14 minutes ago, wildcrazyjoker81 said:

Just have to double-check, but have you tested with two different tests to verify that reading. That does seem to be a bit ridiculous of a drop when you upped your doser. Were the jugs of ESV new before you left?

 

Oh yeah, thanks for the reminder. Yes, I have opened two new reagents and gotten the identical results. 

 

The jugs are not new, but the tail end of the 5 gallon containers.

 

It's really befuddling dosing up and having it rapidly decrease with no other changes sans what I've mentioned. I've gotta presume that the reality of it is, I have a 30 gallon or so water volume tank that has a lot of corals, which is true, and this is not outside the realm of possibility? 

[DaJMasta]

I think the increase is in the realm of possibility and the amount dosed a day doesn't sound unreasonable.  To be sure, are calcium levels showing any similar trend?  I've had my calcium and alkalinity dosing amounts different for 6 months or so now - it seemed fine for a while, but eventually my alkalinity was slowly lowering and my calcium was slowly increasing, so I'm dosing 15mL more alkalinity each day than calcium (though I'm using a dry mix, their concentrations per additive may be better matched to each other).

You could try measuring the tank before, then make a dose of reasonable size, then wait a little for mixing and retest - you should be able to see some kind of bump, even if slight.  You could also try leaving your dosing as is and manually dosing an extra half dose or something each day for a few days, then retesting.  If the alkalinity starts rebounding with the supplemental doses, it may be just that more is needed.

[WheresTheReef]

When I was dosing, it was never truly balanced but very close. Have you tested your Mg and Ca? I wonder if you’re overdosing Ca or Mg is too low and there is some precipitation.

 

https://reefs.com/magazine/chemistry-and-the-aquarium-solving-calcium-and-alkalinity-problems/

[lowsingle]

Alkalinity consumption will track pH so if you get a bump in pH from not being home you could see some decent drop in alkalinity.  I have seen this when I go on vacation.  Remember pH is a log scale so going from 8.1 to 7.8 is basically twice the acidity.

[lynn.reef.nerd]

Another stupid question, I know you said you opened two new reagent bottles, but have you check the alkalinity with the hanna and something else like a salifert?

[YHSublime]

17 hours ago, DaJMasta said:

I think the increase is in the realm of possibility and the amount dosed a day doesn't sound unreasonable.  To be sure, are calcium levels showing any similar trend?  I've had my calcium and alkalinity dosing amounts different for 6 months or so now - it seemed fine for a while, but eventually my alkalinity was slowly lowering and my calcium was slowly increasing, so I'm dosing 15mL more alkalinity each day than calcium (though I'm using a dry mix, their concentrations per additive may be better matched to each other).

You could try measuring the tank before, then make a dose of reasonable size, then wait a little for mixing and retest - you should be able to see some kind of bump, even if slight.  You could also try leaving your dosing as is and manually dosing an extra half dose or something each day for a few days, then retesting.  If the alkalinity starts rebounding with the supplemental doses, it may be just that more is needed.

 

I've not checked calc or mag in years, tbh. Maybe I should. 

 

17 hours ago, WheresTheReef said:

When I was dosing, it was never truly balanced but very close. Have you tested your Mg and Ca? I wonder if you’re overdosing Ca or Mg is too low and there is some precipitation.

 

https://reefs.com/magazine/chemistry-and-the-aquarium-solving-calcium-and-alkalinity-problems/

 

Yeah, I worried about this as well, but there is no visible precipitation. I should check those other levels.

 

11 hours ago, lowsingle said:

Alkalinity consumption will track pH so if you get a bump in pH from not being home you could see some decent drop in alkalinity.  I have seen this when I go on vacation.  Remember pH is a log scale so going from 8.1 to 7.8 is basically twice the acidity.

 

Right, I think the log scale is important to remember, I've knee jerked to stuff like this before and it's never been good. I've upped my doser by 25%, let's see what happens, I can always adjust back. 

 

4 hours ago, lynn.reef.nerd said:

Another stupid question, I know you said you opened two new reagent bottles, but have you check the alkalinity with the hanna and something else like a salifert?

 

Nope, not a stupid question. I have been checking on a hanna checker, it's less than a year old, and I keep it's container in a display case when not in use. 

[lynn.reef.nerd]

ah gotcha. Another stupid question. Have you changed the batteries? 

[YHSublime]

26 minutes ago, lynn.reef.nerd said:

ah gotcha. Another stupid question. Have you changed the batteries? 

 

I just did, and tested, I'm at 5.2 dKH now, which tracks, as my doser was programmed to start increasing as of 6am. I will do a water change today as well. This is not the first time my alkalinity has dramatically dropped, and usually everything is OK. 

 

I'm thinking this is just the nature of such a small water volume and so much coral, you never know when you're walking the line until you're walking the line, and it sneaks up quickly. 

[lowsingle]

Small tanks with SPS are probably the hardest tanks to care for long term IMO due to the fluctuations that you are currently seeing.  If you can manage that small cramped SPS tank you can manage most other tanks except maybe giant ones which require so much labor…..you’ve had success for so long now I recommend you trust your instincts and be careful not to chase numbers too quickly 

 

Darren

[YHSublime]

1 hour ago, lowsingle said:

Small tanks with SPS are probably the hardest tanks to care for long term IMO due to the fluctuations that you are currently seeing.  If you can manage that small cramped SPS tank you can manage most other tanks except maybe giant ones which require so much labor…..you’ve had success for so long now I recommend you trust your instincts and be careful not to chase numbers too quickly 

 

Darren

nailed it. I’m at 5.7 as of this afternoon, will slowly keep at it. I think it’s consumption.

[YHSublime]

On 7/7/2022 at 5:24 PM, WheresTheReef said:

When I was dosing, it was never truly balanced but very close. Have you tested your Mg and Ca? I wonder if you’re overdosing Ca or Mg is too low and there is some precipitation.

 

https://reefs.com/magazine/chemistry-and-the-aquarium-solving-calcium-and-alkalinity-problems/

 

On 7/7/2022 at 5:20 PM, DaJMasta said:

I think the increase is in the realm of possibility and the amount dosed a day doesn't sound unreasonable.  To be sure, are calcium levels showing any similar trend?  I've had my calcium and alkalinity dosing amounts different for 6 months or so now - it seemed fine for a while, but eventually my alkalinity was slowly lowering and my calcium was slowly increasing, so I'm dosing 15mL more alkalinity each day than calcium (though I'm using a dry mix, their concentrations per additive may be better matched to each other).

 

It seems somewhere along the line more calcium is getting into my tank, it's not always been this way, but looks like it's time to clean the lines and grease up the rollers, as they are both programed identically. This is a big explanation of the lower alkalinity levels, and I tested my Calcium this morning, it's over 500, didn't register on a salifert test. Magnesium is 1450, so happy with that. At 55ml a day of solution I'm holding at 5.7dKH.

 

This is going to be a little bit more of a pain to remedy, as I'll have to track calcium here as well, but so be it. 

 

Here's my plan of action:

Service doser

grease rollers

replace tubes

resume dosing regiment sans calcium

track daily

Return to a 1:1 schedule once numbers level (or whatever the tank might be after these days) 

[YHSublime]

Holy precipitation, Batman! I don't think this has been going on for long, but I went to go take everything apart and clean it today and I found this heavy build up. Could it be I'm not spacing my dosing out far enough, or that it's a particularly low flow area in my sump? 

 

 

 

Again, I believe this problem is recent, it does however, require a solution. So here is now my new plan of action now that I've cleaned up the doser/serviced, and tubes:

 

Turn my doser off

Manually dose for alkalinity until I reach 8.0dKH

Water change once I do

Wait to level out my calcium

Turn doser back on again and move delivery into a higher flow area of my sump. 

[howaboutme]

That's pretty strange. What's the speed of your doser? 1.1 mL/minute? How often do you dose and do you dose (1 per hour or what?) and what period (12 hrs, 24 hrs, etc)?

 

Your sump is flowing left to right? It looks like your return is to the left and the dosing tube is in the very next chamber. I'm thinking like you that you aren't spacing each dosing enough AND there isn't enough flow there. If your tube and bottle is in liquid form that's the only thing I can think of too.

[DaJMasta]

That's a heck of a precipitation stalactite!

[YHSublime]

22 minutes ago, howaboutme said:

That's pretty strange. What's the speed of your doser? 1.1 mL/minute? How often do you dose and do you dose (1 per hour or what?) and what period (12 hrs, 24 hrs, etc)?

The bubble magus automatically calculates the daily total volume allocated over 24 hours (can do less time, but more is best I believe.) I’ve been doing 40ml a day of each solution. This is a recent buildup.

 

25 minutes ago, howaboutme said:

Your sump is flowing left to right? It looks like your return is to the left and the dosing tube is in the very next chamber. I'm thinking like you that you aren't spacing each dosing enough AND there isn't enough flow there. If your tube and bottle is in liquid form that's the only thing I can think of too.

left to right, correct. I’m going to drop the lines into the return chamber once I get this ship righted. 
 

14 minutes ago, DaJMasta said:

That's a heck of a precipitation stalactite!

 

sure is! 

[WheresTheReef]

That could be a big reason for the quick recent drop. Most dosers should able to space out the volume to avoid interaction between solutions. However, I’m not familiar with the bubble magus. I had custom scheduled mine since I wanted to guarantee at least 1 hr between Ca and Alk dosing.

 

I placed a small powerhead in the sump chamber I dosed in and that solved precipitation issues for me. I would also check the doser’s calibration. Might be good to manually track dosing to reestablish your dosing volumes.

[YHSublime]

7 minutes ago, WheresTheReef said:

That could be a big reason for the quick recent drop. Most dosers should able to space out the volume to avoid interaction between solutions. However, I’m not familiar with the bubble magus. I had custom scheduled mine since I wanted to guarantee at least 1 hr between Ca and Alk dosing.

 

I reckon this is probably part of it. I can space them further apart as needed, looks like standard is 5 minute intervals. Probably too close, but hasn't been a problem until now. 

 

8 minutes ago, WheresTheReef said:

I placed a small powerhead in the sump chamber I dosed in and that solved precipitation issues for me. I would also check the doser’s calibration. Might be good to manually track dosing to reestablish your dosing volumes.

 

I'm planning on being one with the tank for the next week, 1. While I get my levels corrected, 2. When I get the doser turned back on. I don't believe there is a way to calibrate this brand, just keep it smooth. 

 

That being said, taking recomendations on creme de la creme dosers. Do I need an APEX to run a DOS? I've been eyeing GHL dosers as well. 

 

I should be setting up the 80 next week, so I'll want to match everything up before I swap everything out. 

[ReefAddict]

Yes to my knowledge you need an Apex for a DOS.  I just took my GHL doser 2 offline if you’re looking.

Edited July 10, 2022 by ReefAddict

[howaboutme]

5 minutes between each Alk dose or Alk and Calc? 5 minutes is not a lot of time either way. That may be one of the reasons. Going to a controller controlled doser will help you be able to customize  your schedule better for sure, no matter what brand you go with,

[YHSublime]

So over the past two days I've managed to get it up to a sliding scale in between 6.3 - 6.9 just manually dosing for Alkalinity only. I'm going to put the doser back online for alk only to hopefully push me over into the 7's, then tomorrow right up to 8. Might as well use the tools I have. The amount I'm manually adding in seems aggressive, and wildly irresponsible as I'm eyeballing and taking readings every 3 hours. 

 

Good news is I can finally read Calcium on the salifert, 490. I'll test this daily once I get to around 450 will start adding it back into the mix. Nearly back on the right track. 

[YHSublime]

I got it up to 7.6 by end of day yesterday, which is where my tank has been running for the past year. Keep in mind, when I had my water tested accurately, I was almost a whole point lower with my readings, so the reality is, I'm probably running closer to 8.5. The doser is turned back on for alkalinity only, and has been holding at 7.5dKH for the past 30 hours. My calcium is still reading at 500 on the nose, but I'm not terribly concerned on that front. 

 

Now that things are leveling out, and getting brought up, I imagine I will see an uptick in growth as well, fingers crossed. 

[YHSublime]

I've spent the past month correcting for Calcium. Originally I was over 500. I'm now down to 470ppm and maintaining 8.8dKH - 9.0dKH, with 40ml a 24 hour cycle of ESV Calcium Solution and 50ml a 24 hour cycle of ESV alkalinity solution. I am now dosing an hour apart, and that seems to have cleared up my precipitation issue. There does not seem to be any ill effects of the flux, although I have seen aggressive growth with the additional dosing even in a short period of time. 

 

What's wild is for about a week I was manually adding for alkalinity, really makes me wonder how high my calcium levels were? It's also crazy because I think if my numbers were closer balanced together, I wouldn't have been able to manage the growth. Either way, all signs are pointing towards a bigger tank, my SPS is desperate to spread it's wings! 

[Origami]

Fragfest is coming. Perfect time for trimming that unsightly growth!