Sick Fish, Please Help

[Squishie89]

My male watanbei angel is sick, I am 90% sure it is ich. He is in quarantine (and has been since purchase). I brought him home on April 29th. He has eaten very little to almost nothing since. I did a 15 min float, 30 min drip, and the instant quarantine bath dips, and then into quarantine. He is in a 20L with 2 pvc pipes, 1 live rock, a HOB filter with seeded sponge.

 

I have never medicated a fish before. I have cupramine on hand. Where should I go from here? Please help.

[Almon]

I suggest daily water changes. It is unlikely that one (1) rock and a sponge will be sufficient biological filtration.

[YHSublime]

Water change first. Then get it eating, I think I've heard angels are sensitive to copper. If you do dose, follow the Instructions (make sure you have the cuppramine test kit as well to test your strength) and do a quarter to half dose. Most important thing though is to get it eating, and the copper won't help with that.

[Squishie89]

I talked to Steve. I just dosed a half dose (1ml). He would not eat any live brine. I am going to try some PE mysis. Water change is in the works. Test kit is also in the works.

[Jan]

Watanabeis are very sensitive to copper. When I was dealing with a couple I'd gotten from LA that ended up getting ich the supervisor of the Wisconsin facility of LA told me to dose 1/2 copper and full dose of formalin. Formalin every other day. My situation was extreme. I think I'd already lost like 3 watanabeis they'd sent me by the time these two developed ich. It was horrific. The copper and fromalin worked. 

 

Keep up with water changes. Ammonia builds up fast in hospital tanks with treatment.

Edited May 7, 2014 by Jans Natural Reef Foods

[Squishie89]

Thank you so much for the advice. I am working on getting water ready now.

[zygote2k]

better make sure it eats. you're going to treat a fish with hard core meds but it doesn't eat........

[monkiboy]

jessica, sorry to hear the situation has turned sour. with diligence and proper care he can turn around and will hopefully be eating well for you shortly.

 

if you are absolutely certain it is ich, i would not begin treatment at this point. you need to have him eating well, adjusted and as comfortable as possible prior to starting treatment. taking a fish that is not eating and then putting them in treatment where their appetite may be further suppressed is not ideal. if it were uronema or mv there would be a different action plan, of course.

 

i know we talked about the fish being in prazi but i think quantum uses cupramine for two weeks prior to any fish making the display tanks. you may want to inquire about at what levels/solution they had this particular fish in and for specifically how long. if the fish was indeed in cupramine at therapeutic levels for an extended duration and this problem has presented itself now despite that, that will help you greatly in diagnosing what the actual disease is. for example brook and uronema are not affected by cupramine. sometimes for someone who isn't used to seeing each of these diseases and parasites it can be hard to pinpoint what the culprit is and it helps to reverse engineer and use as much information to deduce the most likely problem.

 

i would not recommend the use of formalin. formalin is a carcinogen and that alone bothers me when other solutions has proven themselves (in my experience and that of many documented others) equally as successfully. paraguard has worked wonders for me in it's place and what i recommend when formalin is typically called for. feel free to continue with the follow ups with me as i'd really like to see this beauty make it through for you, happy, and healthy in your tank. g'luck.

Edited May 7, 2014 by monkiboy

[Jan]

Have you tried any treatment yet? Why not start with hyposalinity?  It's easy, costs nothing and it's natural.

 

"Over a period of about 36-48 hours (use 48 for most Tangs, Butterflyfishes, Lionfishes, Puffers, and Dwarf Angelfishes) lower the specific gravity through water removal and RO/DI or distilled water additions. Watch pH and temperature of the added water -- match that of the water being replaced. Use only a refractometer to measure the specific gravity. Lower the specific gravity to a reading of 1.008 to 1.009 sp. gr. units. Hold it there throughout the treatment."

Here's the rest - http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums/fish-diseases-treatments/23131-hyposalinity-treatment-process.html
 

Edited May 7, 2014 by Jans Natural Reef Foods

[Squishie89]

I have never (successfully) dealt with a sick fish before. However, this fish does not want to eat. He refused live brine shrimp and PE mysis today. I am hoping with the ich taken care of he may get his appetite back. I am going to with the cupramine because I have already started it. I am already beyond frustrated and fed up, but I am going to try. Everyone and their grandmother has a different way of dealing with ich and it is exhausting everyone trying to tell you why their way is the best. I know you all are just trying to help, but please know it is quite a bit overwhelming.

[zygote2k]

get the fish eating first.

[Jan]

I have to agree that getting the fish to eat is most important. As I mentioned in my last post I've been there with Watanabeis and it is not easy. I had to force feed my male. And after treatment, force feeding and everything looked fine, he still died. I suspect the catch method was illegal and very harmful. I have no proof. 

Watanabaies are deep water fish. Unfortunately the catch methods aren't always what they should be for Watanabeis. They endure more stress than most fish. Some are collected using cyanide, some are vented (their swim bladder is punctured so they can equalize fast) and there are some that are brought up properly with several stops along the way allowing for proper equalization/adjustment to the atmosphere.

 

Can you post a picture of him? 

Did you see him eat at the LFS?

How big is he? The larger the more difficult to adjust and treat. 6" or more should remain in the ocean, IMO.

Did he have any areas where he had missing scales? An injury that looks like a line where his swim bladder is. 

Did you notify your LFS or where ever you purchased him from that he has not been eating? 

I think I lost 3 that I'd gotten from Liveaquaria to no fault of mine. There's a thread somewhere showing me attempting to feed the large male I'd gotten from LA. I was desperate. I got rid of the ich, but he was too weak and died. Only the females survived.  

 

Watanabeis are an expert level fish. They are difficult to acclimate.   

Edited May 7, 2014 by Jans Natural Reef Foods

[sen5241b]

1+ fish are more likely to eat with live foods

[YHSublime]

I am already beyond frustrated and fed up, but I am going to try. Everyone and their grandmother has a different way of dealing with ich and it is exhausting everyone trying to tell you why their way is the best. I know you all are just trying to help, but please know it is quite a bit overwhelming.

 

I understand your frustration, and it's great that you are going to try. You bought a fish that is considered difficult to keep, and you need to be prepared for that "difficulty" to ensue.

 

There is more than one way to approach this situation, and there will be lots of opinions, you need to discern yourself what is the best way, and I don't see anybody giving you any wrong or bad advice here. Actually, the only thing I see here is people taking the time to write up ways to help you with your fish, and I'm glad you recognize that.

 

It looks like from all the advice left here, the consensus would be to get it eating first. I found that when I had to setup a qt tank that soaking foods in selcon really helped improve the appetite. You mentioned that you tried brine shrimp and pe mysis, have you given black worms a shot? Selcon soaked blackworms are what pulled my fish through QT, but your situation may be different. I would try as many foods as I can, and as suggested, live. The reason you're hearing "get it eating" first is because copper will suppress the appetite. If you have a fish that is not eating, the treatment will not aid with appetite.

 

Take a step back; breathe, make a plan, and evaluate. We are here to help, not discourage.

[TrueTricia]

jessica, sorry to hear the situation has turned sour. with diligence and proper care he can turn around and will hopefully be eating well for you shortly.

 

if you are absolutely certain it is ich, i would not begin treatment at this point. you need to have him eating well, adjusted and as comfortable as possible prior to starting treatment. taking a fish that is not eating and then putting them in treatment where their appetite may be further suppressed is not ideal. if it were uronema or mv there would be a different action plan, of course.

 

i know we talked about the fish being in prazi but i think quantum uses cupramine for two weeks prior to any fish making the display tanks. you may want to inquire about at what levels/solution they had this particular fish in and for specifically how long. if the fish was indeed in cupramine at therapeutic levels for an extended duration and this problem has presented itself now despite that, that will help you greatly in diagnosing what the actual disease is. for example brook and uronema are not affected by cupramine. sometimes for someone who isn't used to seeing each of these diseases and parasites it can be hard to pinpoint what the culprit is and it helps to reverse engineer and use as much information to deduce the most likely problem.

 

i would not recommend the use of formalin. formalin is a carcinogen and that alone bothers me when other solutions has proven themselves (in my experience and that of many documented others) equally as successfully. paraguard has worked wonders for me in it's place and what i recommend when formalin is typically called for. feel free to continue with the follow ups with me as i'd really like to see this beauty make it through for you, happy, and healthy in your tank. g'luck.

 

Your knowledge of fish diseases never ceases to amaze me!

[TrueTricia]

I understand your frustration, and it's great that you are going to try. You bought a fish that is considered difficult to keep, and you need to be prepared for that "difficulty" to ensue.

 

There is more than one way to approach this situation, and there will be lots of opinions, you need to discern yourself what is the best way, and I don't see anybody giving you any wrong or bad advice here. Actually, the only thing I see here is people taking the time to write up ways to help you with your fish, and I'm glad you recognize that.

 

It looks like from all the advice left here, the consensus would be to get it eating first. I found that when I had to setup a qt tank that soaking foods in selcon really helped improve the appetite. You mentioned that you tried brine shrimp and pe mysis, have you given black worms a shot? Selcon soaked blackworms are what pulled my fish through QT, but your situation may be different. I would try as many foods as I can, and as suggested, live. The reason you're hearing "get it eating" first is because copper will suppress the appetite. If you have a fish that is not eating, the treatment will not aid with appetite.

 

Take a step back; breathe, make a plan, and evaluate. We are here to help, not discourage.

 

 

Jessica

 

Good luck with the sick fish.  I definitely +1 what Issac says about Selcon.  I've used it before to get sick seahorses eating, and it usually worked! 

 

And remember: Fish are Friends, not Food! (bc Disney always helps me laugh, and it sounds like you need one)

[ExoticReefCreations]

Your knowledge of fish diseases never ceases to amaze me!

I taught him all he knows!!

[kjamaya]

Soak your food in fresh garlic and aloe. I put it in my home made fish food and keeps my guys nice and healthy. 

[Jan]

You have another option here. Take it to a true professional. I took my Genicanthus Watanabei to Pender vet hospital. The exotic pet division. The vet there knew her stuff about marine fish. She did a culture and told me to continue my course of antibiotic treatment. This was one that had been treated for ich and then developed Uronema Marinum.  I think her name was Torres, not sure. It's somewhere on here in a thread. all total under $80.00. I think BRK consults with her too. Good luck!!!  

Edited May 7, 2014 by Jans Natural Reef Foods

[Jan]

Here's the thread and the vet information.
http://wamas.org/forums/topic/56472-if-it-isnt-one-thing-its-a-flippin-other/?hl=%2Bpender+%2Bexotic&do=findComment&comment=480953

[morgan175]

You know you love your fish when you take them to a vet.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Jan]

LOL!!! That wasn't out of love, that was out of desperation and frustration. I was getting one hit after another and another. It would have cost me more money in losses or to have continued to guess than it did to have a vet run some tests and tell me what to do. The best $88.00 I've ever spent in this hobby, really. I'd do it all over again.
 

You know you love your fish when you take them to a vet.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Edited May 7, 2014 by Jans Natural Reef Foods

[TrueTricia]

I taught him all he knows!!

 

Then I bow down to your knowledge too, Obi-wan!

[Jan]

WAMAS should consider inviting Dr. Torres to lecture on "Identifying Common Marine Fish illnesses and Diseases, and Various Treatment Options." something most would benefit from. She was eager to do something like this for WAMAS.

Edited May 7, 2014 by Jans Natural Reef Foods

[scott711]

As most of the other people have said, the most important thing is to get the fish eating first.  Most newly imported fish have quite a bit of fat storage to live off of and even if they don't eat right away can do fine long term.  Most medications will cause a decrease in appetite.  Building up the fish's strength through feeding good quality foods goes a long way to the overall health.  Try ever type of food for angel's since many are very finicky.  Mussels, clams, oysters, shrimp, worms, brine, etc. 

 

When it does eat, as mentioned, start with a very low dose of cupramine and work your way up to a therapeutic level. 

 

 

we had Christine Williams come talk to us last year.  Good information.  There is a powerpoint presentation that she had with a lot of good information. I can't post it on the board, but it can be sent to an email address.