What is a legitimate question?

[steveoutlaw]

I have seen a few posts in the last year where legitimate questions were asked of the seller, and the asker gets a warning from a moderator.  Here are a couple examples:

 

-A user had posted that her fish were sick and she couldn't figure out what was wrong with them.  3 weeks later she posted them for sale and was asked if they were healed and what had been done to heal them.  The member never answered the question, but instead went running to the mods to complain.  All of the members that asked about the health of the fish were contacted by the mods and told not to post anymore questions or we'd be in trouble (I was one of them).

 

Now, with all of the diseases being passed around by members because they don't fully disclose their tank inhabitants maladies, why were questions about the health of the fish considered to be inappropriate?  Any potential buyer has a right to know the health and history of their purchase don't they?

 

-Recently we had another member offered up a coral for sale.  He then raised the price of the coral, and when asked about it he said it was someone elses.  Then he said it was a gift.  Then he said that he didn't want a cap that big in his tank, but at the same time took a large cap from someone else for free.  People in the threat were inquiring about all of the inconsistencies with what was said in the thread, yet the post that closed the thread said that some of those questions were inappropriate. 

 

So I guess my question is, why were those questions inappropriate?  Not trying to start something here, but it's a legitimate question.

[AlanM]

I'm curious to know the answer to this as well.

[rainbowfish]

Same here

[John Ford]

There's a ton of overhead involved to make sense of everything. Monday-Thursday it's 90. Friday - Sunday it's 115. Simple math lady's and gents

[lutz123]

Curious too about what questions are allowed of sellers in the sale thread...but I think this should be under Member Discussion since it's concerning the member only area.

 

I would hope that mods reminded sellers to disclose any recent illnesses or relevant tank conditions, and that the sale area is for members only and that it's okay to sell for another member if it's stated. I think anyone is within their rights to raise a price if they change their mind.

[Origami]

If the question posted is in an auction thread, it's against the published rules. Go to PM in this case. Was the first example an auction, Steve?

 

In the second case, I think the post was closed as the sale concluded. The questions posed in that thread, as I recall, we're varied. Some deals with the product, but others went to the seller's character. Since the sale concluded, I can only surmise that it was to stop beating the dead horse.

 

Sent from my Rezound on Tachyon using Tapatalk

 

 

[Origami]

I think anyone is within their rights to raise a price if they change their mind.

Personally, I think it's very bad form to make an offer at one price, have somebody express interest, and then raise it on them. That's a quick way to lose credibility here. Is it against the rules? No. But it's a heck of a way to treat the community. If you're going to do that, start an auction with a high starting bid.

 

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[Djplus1]

Personally, I think it's very bad form to make an offer at one price, have somebody express interest, and then raise it on them. That's a quick way to lose credibility here. Is it against the rules? No. But it's a heck of a way to treat the community. If you're going to do that, start an auction with a high starting bid.

 

Sent from my Rezound on Tachyon using Tapatalk

+1, it is certainly within ones rights to do whatever they want with the sales price, but unless it's an obvious typo, I would never do business with that store or individual again if they pull that bait and switch type stunt on me.

[BowieReefer84]

+1, it is certainly within ones rights to do whatever they want with the sales price, but unless it's an obvious typo, I would never do business with that store or individual again if they pull that bait and switch type stunt on me.

What's worse is when a buyer shows up and tries to lower the price...  

[Djplus1]

What's worse is when a buyer shows up and tries to lower the price...  

I didn't do that to you did I! JK, I still haven't hooked up those heaters. Thanks again.

[BowieReefer84]

I didn't do that to you did I! JK, I still haven't hooked up those heaters. Thanks again.

NO NO, not you!  You're a good buyer/seller.  Some folks do it though..

[YHSublime]

What's worse is when a buyer shows up and tries to lower the price...

Every person on craigslist ever.

[steveoutlaw]

I don't want this to turn into a "man I hate when sellers/buyers do that" thread.  I'm just trying to determine what questions can be asked where and what can't.  I know that if I were getting ready to buy some livestock and the seller doesn't mention anything that is wrong with it, I would want someone to say, "hey - I thought those fish were sick" or "you didn't say anything about your flatworm problem".  I guess I'm just looking for a little seller accountability.

 

 

Tom - I believe it was a sales thread, but I can't be sure.  I just know that the member had very publicly stated how sick their fish were (not just the fish for sale, but the whole tank) and a month later they were miraculously cures and she wouldn't give any details on what was wrong and what was done to cure them.

[davelin315]

We do not get involved with a sale unless it violates our rules. Moderation is based on whether a post adds anything of value to a sale whether by determining the history of an item or determining the actual condition. References to sellers themselves may or may not be appropriate and are on a case by case basis. If a legitimate concern is raised, does it help to pile on? My feeling is no, it adds nothing to the conversation and simply results in bad blood, creating a larger moderation headache down the line. Often a post will be made and everyone gets up in arms because we don't do anything without considering whether we have even seen it. Sometimes the subject is already being discussed but we have not yet determined whether any course of action is even appropriate.

 

In the closed thread you mentioned, the sale was completed so the thread had no viable purpose. The questions and comments made were at the point where it was becoming divisive and antagonistic so it was done. Most threads simply go away on their own, but this one was beyond the scope of the thread itself.

 

In all things on this site we walk a fine line when moderating. Unfortunately, even though there are clear rules, not every thread falls within the scope of the rules perfectly. We try and moderate as little as possible so as not to be heavy handed but the occasional preemptive mod may occur.

 

Steve, wish I could give you a line in the sand, but it is tough to do. Even in standard cases we sometimes take different approaches. For instance, sales thread goes up without prices - a bunch of people express interest in the items but also ask what the price is - do we hide it right away as a matter of course or do we wait 6 hours after sending a message? 12 hours? A day? It would be nice to have some uniform moderation guidelines but when we have debated in the past we always come back to the fact that it is tough to not paint ourselves into a corner with too many rules and guidelines so when you ask the question of what kind of question is appropriate, the answer is the good ones that add something of genuine value to the thread itself.

 

By the way, in the referenced fish health thread, the point had been well made about the health of the fish. We all knew they had been sick within the past few weeks and that the claim was pretty preposterous that they were in perfect health, but the practice of caveat emptor/buyer beware had already been clearly reinforced so continuing with the questions and comments was not needed.

[dante411x]

Ive had that happen with a member here, was buying something for 60 and when I went to pick it up he insisted it was 80. I didn't feel like arguing since I had to drive an hour to pick it up. 
However, I will tell you this much, I will never deal with that person again, no matter how great something sounds.

I guess that's the whole point. Anyone can do whatever they want really. It's up to you whether or not you're willing to overlook it or not. But as far as bashing them on the forums.. What's the point?

Edited January 4, 2014 by dante411x

[davelin315]

Personally, I think it's very bad form to make an offer at one price, have somebody express interest, and then raise it on them. That's a quick way to lose credibility here. Is it against the rules? No. But it's a heck of a way to treat the community. If you're going to do that, start an auction with a high starting bid.

 

Sent from my Rezound on Tachyon using Tapatalk

  

+1, it is certainly within ones rights to do whatever they want with the sales price, but unless it's an obvious typo, I would never do business with that store or individual again if they pull that bait and switch type stunt on me.

It is, in fact, illegal to change a price once a contract has been entered into. That said, if no deal has been struck, the seller is within his or her rights to change the price. As Tom said, it is bad form, especially on a site like this where deals are to be found left and right, but I can't say that I wouldn't do it if I realized I had made a mistake in pricing something too low... FYI, even though something might happen that is illegal, WAMAS has no ability to enforce the terms of a sale and can only moderate membership itself. When an individual exhibits the wrong behavior and has a pattern to show for it, we take appropriate action and suspend or ban them.

[davelin315]

I don't want this to turn into a "man I hate when sellers/buyers do that" thread.  I'm just trying to determine what questions can be asked where and what can't.  I know that if I were getting ready to buy some livestock and the seller doesn't mention anything that is wrong with it, I would want someone to say, "hey - I thought those fish were sick" or "you didn't say anything about your flatworm problem".  I guess I'm just looking for a little seller accountability.

 

 

Tom - I believe it was a sales thread, but I can't be sure.  I just know that the member had very publicly stated how sick their fish were (not just the fish for sale, but the whole tank) and a month later they were miraculously cures and she wouldn't give any details on what was wrong and what was done to cure them.

Steve, you are correct on both of your points, you embody the spirit of moderation in trying to keep this thread on topic and it was a sales thread.

[steveoutlaw]

Thanks for weighing in Tom and Dave.  I can imagine moderating a forum is about as easy as herding cats.

[Orion]

Would WAMAS consider putting in place a "feedback" rating in members profiles? I know on a couple of other fish related forums they have these in place. You also have the ability to leave a comment for both the buyer and seller after a transaction has been completed.

[Piper]

Interesting topic. Hadn't seen the most recent issues in "for sale" as my subscription lapsed last month and what little thought I'd given it, not seeing the "for sale" section here is up on my list of reasons to not renew. Lots of pluses to WAMAS, that isn't one of them from my perspective. My little dust up in "for sale" came with BOTH sides crying foul. I sold a football sized screaming green and told the buyer I was keeping a 1" frag, for which he demanded a 10% rebate, for keeping .001 percent of the colony. As classless as buying a used car and trying to sell the owner back his sunglasses and CD's from the back seat if you ask me, but ultimately the mods sided with this prolific user. Why people do these things, I'll never know. He doesn't have my birdsnest and I won't bother trying to sell a thing here anymore. Organizations do tend to take on the flavor of management. 

 

It sounds like one of the recent dust ups in the for sale area may also have something peripherally to do with me. I gave Mr703 a BUNCH of corals. Not the first time I've given a ton away, ask Pizzaguy. Since Zygote2k moved me over to 2part from a calc reactor, my growth has exploded and, acting on his recommendation a while back I'm moving the big, fast growth corals to the base. I can see a day soon when I won't even do cap or birdsnest anymore. Grow like weeds. Did a lot of trimming and gave a ton of them to Mr703. I think he's just embarrassed he doesn't have the setup to sustain the frags and had to leave them with me for a while. He's a good guy with limited resources but loves, LOVES this stuff, so hopefully the ribbing I've seen him get here and there might ease up. I can't see the for sale section right now, but sure sounds like he just didn't want to give up that they're in my tank for now. 

 

Might go re-up this afternoon just to get involved if I have to. The frags are fine here briefly anyway. I'd like them gone soon though.

[pizzaguy]

Ultimately this is a very tight knit community we have here and that's what I like about wamas so much. So tight that really there's not much room for error or dishonesty.when something seems shady I think it's inevitable for question to arise. Why, because everyone knows everybody here for the most part.

Piper also gave me a huge green cap colony a long time ago which is getting huge by the way and also gave me some other frags.

[sachabballi reef]

Interesting topic. Hadn't seen the most recent issues in "for sale" as my subscription lapsed last month and what little thought I'd given it, not seeing the "for sale" section here is up on my list of reasons to not renew. Lots of pluses to WAMAS, that isn't one of them from my perspective. My little dust up in "for sale" came with BOTH sides crying foul. I sold a football sized screaming green and told the buyer I was keeping a 1" frag, for which he demanded a 10% rebate, for keeping .001 percent of the colony. As classless as buying a used car and trying to sell the owner back his sunglasses and CD's from the back seat if you ask me, but ultimately the mods sided with this prolific user. Why people do these things, I'll never know. He doesn't have my birdsnest and I won't bother trying to sell a thing here anymore. Organizations do tend to take on the flavor of management. 

 

In the future always best practice to frag a piece BEFORE putting a coral up for auction...that way the person is getting EXACTLY what they paid for ...and isn't put in an uncomfortable position with you at pick up.  In this instance it wasn't because he was a prolific user, it was because you have to give the buyer EXACTLY what they bought in your auction.  

[steveoutlaw]

Ok, nobody is calling anybody out in this thread.  My question was about the questions that perspective buyers were able to ask in a thread where, let's say, everything doesn't add up.  If we are going to start throwing members names around or making accusations, do it in your own thread.  Not my intention here.

[Piper]

In the future always best practice to frag a piece BEFORE putting a coral up for auction...that way the person is getting EXACTLY what they paid for ...and isn't put in an uncomfortable position with you at pick up.  In this instance it wasn't because he was a prolific user, it was because you have to give the buyer EXACTLY what they bought in your auction.  

 

Not buying it. Sorry. He was getting exactly what was pictured. Origami said from the beginning he agreed with me and then the tide changed based on whatever lobbying said user was doing in the background. It was a bad call.. I thought it would be fun to get involved selling frags but it wasn't. Want no part of it.

 

I do agree that just not telling him I was keeping a frag would have avoided it. That doesn't change anything.

[AlanM]

Dunno, all of my frag purchases have been really good experiences. Equipment selling has been the same. In the recent referenced sale it just seemed so weird that he was so evasive and saying conflicting things while selling coral that came from someone else and simultaneously claiming the SWAP one that Laura was offering at the same time as he was saying that his tank couldn't handle the similar one he was selling. Does he get the SWAP aspect which prohibits selling in the future? Although Laura can make whatever arrangement she wants with him if she wants to give it to him.