Change...

[GraffitiSpotCorals]

This hobby is addictive. I found that I was spending all my energy and time on researching and messing with our tank. At one point pulling wamas's homepage to check for new posts was almost second nature. Now that I am looking back its sad... I am sure there are a large amount of people that stalk the forums daily, looking for something that will be that perfect cheap or free addition to their tank. I am not exactly sure what I will do with my spare time now that our 210 is down. I used to help out at a local fish store when I had spare time but it seems fish stores change too. And recently it seems a lot of actual reef discussions here get turned into jokes and no one learns anything. I am growing tired, not of reefing, but of all the other stuff that comes with it. I have began to reply to posts and then finishing up my last sentence, realized... ...who cares? I have done it maybe 300 times this year.

 

It's time for a change. I am just glad I can see the change coming this time, rather than getting hit in the back with it! Because trust me, my back is bruised and swollen. Thanks for letting me vent, if you feel the need to vent about something, post it.

[Coral Hind]

And recently it seems a lot of actual reef discussions here get turned into jokes and no one learns anything. I am growing tired, not of reefing, but of all the other stuff that comes with it. I have began to reply to posts and then finishing up my last sentence, realized... ...who cares?

I feel the same way!

[Orion]

Thanks for letting me vent, if you feel the need to vent about something, post it.

 

[ohaverd]

Some times we just need a break from stuff.  Don't worry too much about it, take a few weeks off from the forums and come back when you really feel like you want to.  Hobbies should be fun, if it isnt it may be time for a new hobby.  As far as the forums go, there are so many threads on here that just about everything has been answered, some times I don't post anything because I feel like "thats a quick google search".   But unless it is a very serious thread where someone needs help or they are going to lose all of their livestock, why not keep it light with some jokes?  Unless the jokes derail the thread of course. 

[Origami]

It's a balance, sometimes, between keeping it informative and building and maintaining the community. However, when a post asks a legitimate question, we should probably strive to stay on topic and provide help where we can. Good note, Piper27.

 

As for venting, I'm more irritated of late by some of the disrespectful responses that I'm observing. It's not what we're about.

[sachabballi reef]

I think the problem is that we were a sleepy little community...we didn't really have much new stuff going on and the constant posters have a relationship with each other that ends with banter based mostly on familiarity.  Most have been in the hobby a long time or long enough that the start up issues are usually stable and when there is something technical etc it does get discussed and there is plenty to learn...I just don't think there is a proportional amount of those posts compared to the more lighthearted ones...I don't see a problem with that honestly.

 When the community got shaken up by a couple of new members that moved into the neighborhood and woke the sleepy neighbors up by their loud music and constant ringing of others doorbells it agitated the quiet that everyone had gotten used to.  The old neighbors are annoyed that whenever the doorbell rings with questions that are easily answered with research if the newbies had bothered to try on their own.  And that sparks the nasties to appear. Then the sides get taken and it takes a while for the newbies to settle down and learn to help themselves as well as asking others.....balance....and it takes the sleepy neighbors time to accept the new generation and have patience and type over and over again....research....read....slow down....

At some point we will get back to sleepy and slow learning and banter...and that to me is a nice neighborhood to live in....and for those like Piper who are just over it....put up a fence....they make nice neighbors too.....

[ohaverd]

I think the problem is that we were a sleepy little community...we didn't really have much new stuff going on and the constant posters have a relationship with each other that ends with banter based mostly on familiarity.  Most have been in the hobby a long time or long enough that the start up issues are usually stable and when there is something technical etc it does get discussed and there is plenty to learn...I just don't think there is a proportional amount of those posts compared to the more lighthearted ones...I don't see a problem with that honestly.

 When the community got shaken up by a couple of new members that moved into the neighborhood and woke the sleepy neighbors up by their loud music and constant ringing of others doorbells it agitated the quiet that everyone had gotten used to.  The old neighbors are annoyed that whenever the doorbell rings with questions that are easily answered with research if the newbies had bothered to try on their own.  And that sparks the nasties to appear. Then the sides get taken and it takes a while for the newbies to settle down and learn to help themselves as well as asking others.....balance....and it takes the sleepy neighbors time to accept the new generation and have patience and type over and over again....research....read....slow down....

At some point we will get back to sleepy and slow learning and banter...and that to me is a nice neighborhood to live in....and for those like Piper who are just over it....put up a fence....they make nice neighbors too.....

I agree, it is a difficult balance to achieve to make a newbie feel welcome, while also telling him that his question is easily answered with a little research.  I am guilty of asking stupid questions, but I usually figure out that the question is stupid when no one replies.  This tells me A) its either a dumb question, or B) It is easily answered with the magical google. 

 

So if its someone like me who should know better, just ignore the dumb question.  But if its a guy with 2 posts, maybe a "welcome to the forums, here is a link for you" would be better... 

[GraffitiSpotCorals]

At some point we will get back to sleepy and slow learning and banter...and that to me is a nice neighborhood to live in....and for those like Piper who are just over it....put up a fence....they make nice neighbors too.....

I did not write this post about new memebers nor did I intend it to be. My fence will have a nice front gate I can go out and go where I please . If I were to build one that is.

 

It's a balance, sometimes, between keeping it informative and building and maintaining the community. However, when a post asks a legitimate question, we should probably strive to stay on topic and provide help where we can. Good note, Piper27.

 

As for venting, I'm more irritated of late by some of the disrespectful responses that I'm observing. It's not what we're about.

Yea I didn't have much of a good experience trying to get rid of fish either. It was to be expected though. Not having to get rid of the fish, that was almost forced on us, but was expected that my experience would be frustrating.

 

Some times we just need a break from stuff.  Don't worry too much about it, take a few weeks off from the forums and come back when you really feel like you want to.  Hobbies should be fun, if it isnt it may be time for a new hobby.  As far as the forums go, there are so many threads on here that just about everything has been answered, some times I don't post anything because I feel like "thats a quick google search".   But unless it is a very serious thread where someone needs help or they are going to lose all of their livestock, why not keep it light with some jokes?  Unless the jokes derail the thread of course.

 

Yes jokes seem to derail the threads I am thinking of.

 

On another note see how quickly I came back to check this thead?? Lame...

[PK3]

As for venting, I'm more irritated of late by some of the disrespectful responses that I'm observing. It's not what we're about.

 

Agree 100% with this.  If you don't like the content or number of posts of a certain individual, just ignore them and stop reading their threads.  It's that simple.  Why go out of your way and read their threads when you know you're just going to be annoyed by it?

[trockafella]

I had a little break from the hobby recently while I was changing tanks. It was nice having nothing to deal with, but I missed it quickly. Having downsized, everything seems much easier and more simple. So I guess my break was refreshing, and coming back and NOT being overwhelmed is nice.

 

Im tired of redundant posts/questions, people flooding the forums with posts and really tired of people who want all the answers without doing any of the work on there own.. 

[Gilbert]

This forum has been very helpful when I first joined a few years ago and still even now. I met some really decent individuals on this forum and the meetings were awesome. I recently got back in this forum because of a new build (125 gallon mix reef) and it is definitely a different vibe. I asked a question about a new salt mix that I wasn't familiar with nor was there enough google info about it. I got a few responses that made me scratch my head a little, but for the most part it was very informative. I have notice some members posting things that could easily be researched on google, but I have to admit sometimes asking is a lot easier than doing the research With that being said, I agree...people should maybe put in a little more effort into Googling and not be so "lazy"

[Origami]

Personally, I don't mind the repetition as much as most as I find it a sort of a free "refresher." I remember when I entered the hobby:

 

a) When I was fortunate enough to know what the words were to look up, the responses that I got from a search were plenty. Sorting out the wheat from the chaff could be daunting, especially when it seemed that every other question turned up some reefer battleground.

 

b) Questions asked and answers received led to other questions. Getting a dialog going was useful to follow one thread because follow on answers, like the first question, might quickly head down multiple paths.

 

c) Appreciating the answers and the patience that I received helped develop in me a sense of thankfulness, making me want to help others coming after me in the same way as those before me helped me.

 

If every other response that I'd received were "go read a book," I would have been turned off to the utility and value of forums and cuddled up with a cold but growing library. Part of what we do here is facilitate a learning environment where people aren't afraid to ask questions. Sure, like anybody else here, I want people to try to help themselves. But when they ask a question that's been asked before, I don't label it with the pejorative term, "lazy." Certainly I don't want to respond to it that way. If you won't provide any more than this, I would prefer that you stand aside and let someone else rise up to help because your answer is near useless and just replaces a vacant space with another vacuum. If you want to give a list of books that you like, then by all means offer it. But try to do so in addition to offering the help that is being sought. Just my two cents.

[lutz123]

Interesting...and I find myself typing out responses as well, only to hit cancel and move on. 

 

Lots of frustration lately...  Many people continually say "do your research" (and I have thought that myself on occasion), but isn't that what someone is doing when they reach out to people on a forum with experience, rather than doing something based on the advice of a salesperson at an LFS?  Can't a vast majority of the questions every day be answered with internet research - Ich? Coral care? IDs? Best skimmers? DIY? Also, what would the point of a forum be if everyone were to just research using books?    And if people think books are the only way good info is found, why are they on a forum in the first place?  Sense of community, chatting with people you have something in common with...

 

The sense of unwelcome that has come across in a few posts is a wee bit uncomfortable.  Not for me personally, but if someone were to visit the site for the first time it could potentially seem like an exclusive club that doesn't welcome newbies to the hobby.  Sure, toughen up.  Sometimes it looks like people are getting ganged up on though (the +1's are not always necessary, even if you are thinking it.)  Justified or not, inevitably, valuable members will steer clear of the forums to stay away from drama.  On the other hand, I wouldn't have a clue how to respond to someone who intentionally ignores advice over and over again yet continues to ask to be rescued.  Maybe some longer term, experienced members are more sensitive to that.  Honestly though, as much as I want everyone to succeed, their mistakes don't bother me. 

 

Some posts are useful, some not so useful, some interesting, some not, light, serious, whatever.  It's all good.  

 

I've been wanting to ask someone why my cerith snail spewed out neon purple liquid last week...but honestly, who cares?

[Coral Hind]

Well said Origami and lutz123! That's exactly how I feel. I would much rather see the newbie questions over again than the recent negativity and bashing posts. Those that are tired of the basic questions shouldn't read the thread or even try to reply in a lame manner. Just ignore and move to another thread or another forum instead of posting anything that is not helpful.

[lutz123]

Personally, I don't mind the repetition as much as most as I find it a sort of a free "refresher." I remember when I entered the hobby:

 

a) When I was fortunate enough to know what the words were to look up, the responses that I got from a search were plenty. Sorting out the wheat from the chaff could be daunting, especially when it seemed that every other question turned up some reefer battleground.

 

b) Questions asked and answers received led to other questions. Getting a dialog going was useful to follow one thread because follow on answers, like the first question, might quickly head down multiple paths.

 

c) Appreciating the answers and the patience that I received helped develop in me a sense of thankfulness, making me want to help others coming after me in the same way as those before me helped me.

Wait...there was internet when you entered the hobby??  (See, not so serious response...completely off topic...yet fun!)

[Joshifer]

I'm sorry I won't ask every question that comes to mind anymore. This is all my fault. I do google a question. And when I get all the same answers I'm happy. But when I get mixed reviews then I ask because I trust people here more then google and books and stores

 

I've been accused of just asking questions and not listening but I do listen and absorb

[lutz123]

This is all my fault.

Nah. 

 

Alright, I gotta get back to work...

[trockafella]

How about this...  We now live in the "everybody gets a trophy" age.  Everyone is so soft and offended by everything. As much right as they have to CONSTANTLY post, well we have as much right to not like it and be annoyed (however slanderous posts are not ok). Im sorry if you don't like constructive comments, tough advice, or the truth. You find it annoying that people are not "giving you your trophy", tough, get over it. I don't like the gaziilion random posts polluting the boards, but I deal with it. People give Rob (Zygote) a hard time, he's mean, he's a bully blah blah blah... Well, That guy has helped me more than anyone else on here by far. I know he has done a lot to help many others too.. Sure, its tough love when dealing with him, he doesn't sugar coat, and he certainly isn't handing out trophys for last place either. But in the end, guys like him will help you out, and will be HONEST. This is an online forum, I don't care if you do or don't like me, im going to sleep just fine either way.

[DaveS]

I too have hit the cancel button more and more lately.  But not this time!

 

How about we come up with some ideas to help address the problem?  Below is mine.  Maybe it's not practical or we can't implement it but maybe it will generate some additional thoughts on ways to help.

 

Basically there are certain topics that come up very often- cycling, QT, ich, LEDs, bulbs, etc.  We have sticky threads but they are only used for a precious few.  Is there a way to have more sticky threads or equivalent that talk to the common topics?  Maybe we put them in the newbie section or a "Library" forum as most new people are probably smart enough to go to there first.

 

I say sticky "equivalent" because there are some issues with stickies- someone has to manage them or they get out of control.  I don't know if it's possible or not but some type of thread voting system would help.  Members could vote on which threads are most informative and they stay at the top.  When a thread turns to junk, it will fall and eventually a new/similar thread will start up.

 

If such a system doesn't exist, another option may be to have a small committee of Library thread mods.  The threads can be sticky and open and they can be charged to ensure the posts don't stray too far.

 

Again, these are just ideas and they all take people to help implement so part of this will rely on those who don't like the existing system to step up and help make it better.  I'm willing to do that- anyone else??

[Gilbert]

Personally, I don't mind the repetition as much as most as I find it a sort of a free "refresher." I remember when I entered the hobby:

 

a) When I was fortunate enough to know what the words were to look up, the responses that I got from a search were plenty. Sorting out the wheat from the chaff could be daunting, especially when it seemed that every other question turned up some reefer battleground.

 

b) Questions asked and answers received led to other questions. Getting a dialog going was useful to follow one thread because follow on answers, like the first question, might quickly head down multiple paths.

 

c) Appreciating the answers and the patience that I received helped develop in me a sense of thankfulness, making me want to help others coming after me in the same way as those before me helped me.

 

If every other response that I'd received were "go read a book," I would have been turned off to the utility and value of forums and cuddled up with a cold but growing library. Part of what we do here is facilitate a learning environment where people aren't afraid to ask questions. Sure, like anybody else here, I want people to try to help themselves. But when they ask a question that's been asked before, I don't label it with the pejorative term, "lazy." Certainly I don't want to respond to it that way. If you won't provide any more than this, I would prefer that you stand aside and let someone else rise up to help because your answer is near useless and just replaces a vacant space with another vacuum. If you want to give a list of books that you like, then by all means offer it. But try to do so in addition to offering the help that is being sought. Just my two cents.

Sorry, I didn't mean to offend anyone or come off as a ****** using the pejorative term "lazy".  I think this is a great forum. I have never bashed on anybody or have any interest to. I've learned a lot from this forum and you (Origami) are very helpful, and do a lot for this forum. It is much appreciated from me. I try and offer my positive 2 cents when I can, but I am no where near a "Master Reefer". I don't bash on anybody, I just simply read to refresh, then move on. I have notice the newbies having a hard time here on the forum. Luckily for me, when I joined it was with a warm welcome at my first meeting and some free frags from other members.

 

 

Well said Origami and lutz123! That's exactly how I feel. I would much rather see the newbie questions over again than the recent negativity and bashing posts. Those that are tired of the basic questions shouldn't read the thread or even try to reply in a lame manner. Just ignore and move to another thread or another forum instead of posting anything that is not helpful.

You and Origami are absolutely right, and I agree!

 

 

Sorry guys if I stirred some detritus up. Just wanted to people to know this is a great forum aside from the occasional ignorance.

[howaboutme]

I too have hit the cancel button more and more lately.  But not this time!

 

How about we come up with some ideas to help address the problem?  Below is mine.  Maybe it's not practical or we can't implement it but maybe it will generate some additional thoughts on ways to help.

 

Basically there are certain topics that come up very often- cycling, QT, ich, LEDs, bulbs, etc.  We have sticky threads but they are only used for a precious few.  Is there a way to have more sticky threads or equivalent that talk to the common topics?  Maybe we put them in the newbie section or a "Library" forum as most new people are probably smart enough to go to there first.

 

I say sticky "equivalent" because there are some issues with stickies- someone has to manage them or they get out of control.  I don't know if it's possible or not but some type of thread voting system would help.  Members could vote on which threads are most informative and they stay at the top.  When a thread turns to junk, it will fall and eventually a new/similar thread will start up.

 

If such a system doesn't exist, another option may be to have a small committee of Library thread mods.  The threads can be sticky and open and they can be charged to ensure the posts don't stray too far.

 

Again, these are just ideas and they all take people to help implement so part of this will rely on those who don't like the existing system to step up and help make it better.  I'm willing to do that- anyone else??

 

Bonus points for trying to help find a solution. But it's not the forum that's the issue. The participants make the forum what it is so it all boils down to people. An open mind would help.

 

With that said, if we didn't get repeated forum questions, we would not have our forum, Reef Central or any other forum.......Then what would we all do? If you noticed, most of those posts are repeats...so relax.

[zygote2k]

Well said Piper and Travis.

If noobs came on and introduced themselves and a little background history were added, it would go alot better for some.

If you first came to WAMAS and simply looked through the pinned topics, 99% of the questions needing answering can be found there. There's a wealth of information just lying around for free- all you have to do is look.

If after reading these stickies, you still don't have an answer, by all means ask for help.

 

But if you're one of those who don't care about forum etiquette, then you get singled out as being a forum troll and let the games begin.

 

When you go fishing or "trolling" for answers without doing research first, you never can tell what you might catch....

[ohaverd]

Perhaps we should set up a thread screening process.  It would have to be cleared by 5 different senior posters...  All of which have to be over 1000 posts.  Each Senior poster will scan each new thread for any annoying newbiness, and deem whether it is useful enough to be posted.  They could each have a colored star, and if the thread is good enough will collect ALL FIVE STARS, and maybe all five of the stars can form like a "rainbow brite star" or something like that, showing that it is approved by the greatest master reefers the world has ever known! 

 

I of course am joking...  but only because I don't think this post would actually make it to that fifth star...  Its a toughy.

Edited September 23, 2013 by ohaverd

[matt]

Not sure I care to add my 2 cents, but why not.

 

Whatever happened to the addage "there is no such thing as a dumb question"?

 

If someone doesn't own or have access to a good set of books then forums and internet searching are one of the best sources of info. To each his own in regards to dealing with questions...but how would you respond if someone asked you that same question at a meeting? Maybe you know the answer, or maybe you don't. Either way its not that hard to play nice...really. Don't want to deal with a question, don't respond. Want to deal with it, respond. See bad advice, do whatever you'd do in a lfs with inexperienced staff giving the person next to you some dubious advice. Life isn't complicated...but we sure are trying to make it that way here sometimes.

 

We have a mix of experience levels on the forums...not just including the paying members. Newbies may take an occasional jab. Veterans may get some painfully simple questions. In the end, just recognize (and remind others as needed) thaf life is infinitely easier when everyone plays nice.

 

Besides, most of us have at one time had the benefit of others knowledge when it wasn't "earned". Pay it forward or let it ride.

[ErikS]

..................And recently it seems a lot of actual reef discussions here get turned into jokes and no one learns anything. I am growing tired, not of reefing, but of all the other stuff that comes with it. I have began to reply to posts and then finishing up my last sentence, realized... ...who cares? I have done it maybe 300 times this year.

Kind of the ying & yang of hobbies in general. For whatever reason you get burnt out or tired of all that comes with a hobby = time to step away, hobbies are for enjoyment if that's happening then what's the point?

 

I agree with pretty much everything you said - seems to be the case with all the hobby related forums I'm on................and this one is way milder than most.

 

I do admire (they've posted in this thread) those who have the patience to keep answering questions (like for years) - I can't do it, for one reason I'm not really sure I have any answers (other than don't do this).

 

How about this...  We now live in the "everybody gets a trophy" age.  Everyone is so soft and offended by everything............ People give Rob (Zygote) a hard time, he's mean, he's a bully blah blah blah... Well, That guy has helped me more than anyone else on here by far. I know he has done a lot to help many others too.. Sure, its tough love when dealing with him, he doesn't sugar coat, and he certainly isn't handing out trophys for last place either. But in the end, guys like him will help you out, and will be HONEST. This is an online forum, I don't care if you do or don't like me, im going to sleep just fine either way.

It's not too late.............could you run for Gov? Better yet are you busy in 2016?

 

Mean? LMAO - yeah, don't ever be direct & offer an opinion.

 

 

.....................I say sticky "equivalent" because there are some issues with stickies- someone has to manage them or they get out of control.  I don't know if it's possible or not but some type of thread voting system would help.  Members could vote on which threads are most informative and they stay at the top.  When a thread turns to junk, it will fall and eventually a new/similar thread will start up................................

But then you'll hit the lazy (yeah, I said it, tough) factor. Some people (myself among them) will do a google, forum, and then just read before asking a question. I never post on a forum unless I've made a reasonable attempt to see if the topic has already been covered. Many people couldn't be bothered, just throw up a post. On the other hand I'm not a "here let me google that for you" or "search is your friend" type - if it's easy enough I just don't post.

 

On the other hand as usual you're a better man than I - at least you're coming up with ideas