Build a sump

[Joshifer]

I'm pretty handy and good at DIY stuff. Was wondering.

I have a 10 gallon empty tank I can stick in my tank stand. I have too much rock in my display.

Is it possible to use PVC piping or tubes/hoses and fountain pumps to get a flow from display to bottom tank and back up? Thus having less rock in my display? Without drilling holes. I don't care if it looks ugly it won't show. I don't want to stuff it with floss and cut out acrylic and all that. Just want water flowing thru LR and back up to display

Edited September 18, 2013 by Joshifer

[monkiboy]

so you currently have a tank that is not reef ready, correct?

 

if so, without drilling holes you can build a DIY overflow out of PVC, sure. or use a HOB overflow. and if the fountain pump has enough umph to support the head height than sure you can use it.

 

that being said, you can DIY a much more reliable system by drilling your tank for a proper sump in your stand and return. and it really is quite simple and LOTS of instruction on WAMAS and video on how to get it done in posted threads.

[Joshifer]

so you currently have a tank that is not reef ready, correct?

 

if so, without drilling holes you can build a DIY overflow out of PVC, sure. or use a HOB overflow. and if the fountain pump has enough umph to support the head height than sure you can use it.

 

that being said, you can DIY a much more reliable system by drilling your tank for a proper sump in your stand and return. and it really is quite simple and LOTS of instruction on WAMAS and video on how to get it done in posted threads.

I can get 100-1000 gph fountain pumps from hardware store for practically nothing. Ill look up on the forums thanks ^_^

[Origami]

Joshifer, you would use either a HOB overflow on the main tank (or a DIY PVC overflow) if you don't drill the main tank, and a pump in the sump (the lower tank) to bring water back up to the main tank in this case. Use a reliable pump, though. I'd be very skeptical about trusting my investment to a typical fountain pump that may not have been developed for saltwater use or whose reliability may be low or untested.

 

Google DIY PVC Overflow if you want to see a wacky-looking contraption.

 

There are also cleaner-looking acrylic HOB overflows that you can buy. Ebay, I'm sure, has a lot of them. Aquatraders and others, too.

 

Any overflow that you should consider needs to be self-starting after a power outage. Otherwise you're looking at trouble.

[TheyCallMeMr.703]

And Don't Ever use 2 pumps.. they will not match Eachother... Will cause an Overflow somewhere....

 

 

 

Any overflow that you should consider needs to be self-starting after a power outage. Otherwise you're looking at trouble.

+1

[lnevo]

At this point I'd save your money trying to hack this tank. Now that your in the game do some searching on nice reef ready tank and a proper return pump. You could definitely convert the 10g to a proper sump without much effort. Then you'll have the right setup for your skimmer and a proper ATO.

[wildcrazyjoker81]

At this point I'd save your money trying to hack this tank. Now that your in the game do some searching on nice reef ready tank and a proper return pump. You could definitely convert the 10g to a proper sump without much effort. Then you'll have the right setup for your skimmer and a proper ATO.

+1

[PK3]

And Don't Ever use 2 pumps.. they will not match Eachother... Will cause an Overflow somewhere....

 

+1

 

Technically, this isn't true as long as your overflow can handle the flow of both pumps in the first place.  If one pump were to stop working for whatever reason, the flow through the overflow would just reduce to match the flow of that other pump that is still working.

[Origami]

Technically, this isn't true as long as your overflow can handle the flow of both pumps in the first place.  If one pump were to stop working for whatever reason, the flow through the overflow would just reduce to match the flow of that other pump that is still working.

I think that he wasn't clear. I'm pretty sure he meant to say don't use one pump in one tank pumping in opposition to another pump in another tank and trying to match/balance the two so that the levels in both tanks was held constant. (In other words, not using the overflow concept that is second nature to most of us now, but wasn't probably the case when we first started).

[PK3]

I think that he wasn't clear. I'm pretty sure he meant to say don't use one pump in one tank pumping in opposition to another pump in another tank and trying to match/balance the two so that the levels in both tanks was held constant. (In other words, not using the overflow concept that is second nature to most of us now, but wasn't probably the case when we first started).

 

Gotcha. Did people really employ that method (one pump in each direction) in the past? Geez, I can just picture how many floods there must have been.

[Origami]

Gotcha. Did people really employ that method (one pump in each direction) in the past? Geez, I can just picture how many floods there must have been.

I hope not. But I remember when I was just starting out, I wondered how you guys all got this to work - this whole sump idea was new and confusing. Balanced pumps was the most obvious - but also grossly wrong. When I saw my first overflow and sump, I had to think a little bit about it to have it all make sense. It's second nature now, but it wasn't then.

[YHSublime]

Gotcha. Did people really employ that method (one pump in each direction) in the past? Geez, I can just picture how many floods there must have been.

 

That seems silly, I can't imagine it would have lasted for long before somebody figured out gravity could do the work...

 

 

At this point I'd save your money trying to hack this tank. Now that your in the game do some searching on nice reef ready tank and a proper return pump. You could definitely convert the 10g to a proper sump without much effort. Then you'll have the right setup for your skimmer and a proper ATO.

+2

 

Instead of adding things to this tank, I would plan out a system that you like or see yourself getting in the future. Then you can plan on how you want your overflow (or if you want a reef ready tank) and how you plan on plumbing, how you want to add your sump, what kind of skimmer you want, what kind of pump you want, lighting, etc.

 

I really, honestly mean this. As I read through Tony Vargas book, from inception to completion (I'm still reading) I honestly said, out loud "I wish i read this before I started my aquarium." He breaks down everything from location decisions for your aquarium, spouse decisions, size decisions, as well as breaks down every single aspect of keeping a reef aquarium. I've since learned these things (usually the hard way) this past year, but he will really help you plan your decision on setting up and keeping a reef aquarium. From everything to deciding about sumps, skimmers, overflows, it's there. And there are lots of helpful pictures, and pictures of really great tanks from all around the world.

[PK3]

He breaks down everything from location decisions for your aquarium, spouse decisions, size decisions, as well as breaks down every single aspect of keeping a reef aquarium.

 

Spouse decisions   Lol. 

[Origami]

Spouse decisions   Lol. 

Uh Ohhhhhh, don't laugh about the spouse factor!

[YHSublime]

Uh Ohhhhhh, don't laugh about the spouse factor!

 

I think that's more so laughter at the, "Welp, I'm gonna miss her/him" factor

[matt]

if you really want to put a sump on the current tank...look into glass-holes overflows. drill the current tank and use one...drill the next tank and use it again (provided you use similar return pump gph etc)

[PK3]

I'm more chuckling at the fact that it is such a real concern in this hobby that it warrants mention in a fish book.  I haven't read the book so I can only imagine what it says.  Haha.

 

My spouse decision has already been made so no going back on that for me.  Fortunately, she's been fairly neutral to the hobby throughout the years.

 

Well, not to detract from the main question, but definitely look into the advice given thus far.  It's probably best to set the system up properly the way you want it first.  Drilling is obviously the best way to go, but a u-tube HOB overflow would work well too (and might be the simplest answer given that you already have livestock in the tank).

Edited September 24, 2013 by PK3

[zygote2k]

U-tube overflow is technically called a "flood waiting to happen" in the big official book of reefkeeping terms. Avoid at all costs.

 

The next tank you buy should be a "reef ready" tank that can have a proper sump.

[Origami]

A well designed tank & sump with a HOB overflow need not be a flood waiting to happen. My first tank ran with a HOB and was designed and tested to survive power outages, loss of siphon, plugged u-tubes, and obstructed returns, and to restart upon return of power. Yes, there are more concerns with HOB overflows regarding failure modes, but they are manageable.

 

Sent from my phone

 

[monkiboy]

a HOB is fine but like you said there are more concerns and to build a "well designed" system around one involves lots of research and perhaps a good bit of reef common sense and know-how without having to learn from one's errors (aka floods). despite it being more common amongst new reefers, for those reasons i'd have to agree a RR or drilled tank with overflow should be the way to go for someone like joshifer.

[Origami]

It's not tough really. Keep in mind that I was a newbie (not some experienced reefer) then who hadn't yet realized the convenience of a drilled tank and, because the tank was up and running, kind of committed to the HOB overflow approach. It just required some time and effort to think it through.

Anyways, it boils down to the two two main flooding situations that come into play (barring things like pipe or clamp failures). Both absolutely apply to RR and drilled tanks, contrary to common belief, and can result in wet floors. Restarting the siphon in a HOB overflow, though, is separate from a drilled tank and is an issue tackled at the end.

The two flood mechanisms are:
1. The sump overflows.
2. The main tank overflows.

The first occurs when the sump has insufficient extra capacity to hold excess water draining from the tank. The second when the tank has insufficient extra capacity to hold excess water pumped up from the sump. A well designed system will accommodate both situations. Both can also be readily simulated to test your design - highly recommended - before a real failure hits.

How can these situations happen? Here are a few scenarios.

1. Sump overflows:
a) The return pump becomes clogged and water over the height of the weir flows down into the sump.
b) The return pump stops operating (power loss, failed pump, etc.) and the return in the tank becomes a siphon. This lowers the water to the lower of the weir height or the tank end of the return pipe (unless a siphon break, which can be as simple as a hole drilled in the appropriate place in the return plumbing, is provided)

Mitigation methods include a siphon break, keeping the return line higher in the water rather than lower, and - most important - making sure to design in extra capacity in the sump which, during normal operation, can be viewed as empty air in the sump.

2. Tank overflows:
a) The overflow line to the sump clogs but the return pump continues to pump water from the sump into the main tank. (i.e. the tank can't drain.)
b) The siphon breaks in the case of a HOB overflow, or the U-tube becomes clogged. (i.e the tank can't drain.)

Mitigation methods include redundant overflows, screens to keep critters from getting into and plugging the overflow, having sufficient capacity in the main tank to absorb the extra water in the sump chamber with the return pump in it. This is the critical part: Limiting the water in the return pump chamber so that, if water stops flowing into the sump, this last chamber empties before the display overflows. Mind you, the return pump will "run dry" (unless you have some kind of level switch installed to turn it off on low sump level), but you won't have a spill.

Both are easy to test. Test #1 by pulling the plug on the return pump. Test #2 by closing off the overflow line so the tank can't drain. Watch the level of the water in the tank / sump. If either is about to overflow, return the tank to normal operation and revise your design.

Regarding HOB overflow restart: There are HOB overflows that are designed to restart. Some use pumps to pull air out of the siphon tube while others rely on water velocity to clear out bubbles that can get trapped and reduce flow through the overflow. Both work, and even if they failed, a well and thoughtfully designed system will still not dump water on your floor because of the provisions that you've accounted for to guard against #1 and #2 above.

 

All that said, you need to think this stuff through regardless of if you have a RR / drilled / HOB overflow. Any of these can fail and still result in lots of water on the floor.


 

[PK3]

I also ran a u-tube overflow for several years without any problems, even through several power outages. I believe it can be successfully used if well thought out and properly employed. The keys with the overflow box itself are the following:

 

1. The end of the u-tube in the external box must be lower than the top of the drain pipe.

2. The top of the drain pipe in the external box must be higher than the bottom of the u-tube in the internal box (because the water level in the internal box is determined by the height of the drain pipe in the external box).

 

If the overflow box is set up this way, you should never lose siphon with periodic maintenance (I.e. cleaning out algae, making sure no micro bubbles start accumulating, etc).

[kjamaya]

I have to agree with every1 else about the u-tube overflow. I ran one for many years and have never had a problem. The only thing I recommend doing is painting the U tube with a reef safe paint to prevent algae and calcium build up.

I normally look at my overflow bow to determine if the right amount of water is flowing thru my U tube. This may be something that you need to experience first before painting the U tube.

Edited September 25, 2013 by kjamaya

[PK3]

I have to agree with every1 else about the u-tube overflow. I ran one for many years and have never had a problem. The only thing I recommend doing is painting the U tube with a reef safe paint to prevent algae and calcium build up.

I normally look at my overflow bow to determine if the right amount of water is flowing thru my U tube. This may be something that you need to experience first before painting the U tube.

 

Potentially good suggestion, although I actually preferred not painting the tube so that I can see inside it to check on any bubbles or algae build up, which allowed me to detect if something may not be right.

[matt]

I've heard of plenty of hob overflows working just fine. I had one and had some issues as a total newb.

 

Like Rob must, I prefer drilled tanks now that I have one. I used a glassholes overflow on my current tank since it wasn't reef ready. I would do it again and may recycle the part in a later build...drilling the hole was rather easy despite how nervous I was. Though I was glad it was a used tank for my first go at drilling...made me more confident as screwing up wouldn't have been the end of the world.