Tank is Dieing....

[TheyCallMeMr.703]

wow this thread is hard to follow, can we sum up so its easier to understand

 

sounds like you left for 3 days and came back to a dieing tank, friend was taking care of things......look here- how much did he feed, was he working on a car prior to messing with the tank, did a penny drop in, etc etc etc...

you placed a large piece or two of dry rock into a 55g tank...

salinity was way off...

 

keep a polypad on hand it can tell you if there are metals etc in the water,

 

i find it hard to believe that in 3 days 1 rock destroyed the tank....especially a 55g tank unless the rock was so big it was sticking out the top and touching all sides, especially if there is other live rock etc in there/ aka tank has a somewhat established bacterial population.

 

i have seen 1 test result, saying salinity is 1026 now...what did you test with. how many gallons did yuo have to put in.

 

why dont you use a test ket

get ph, alk, ca, amonia, phosphates, natrates trites etc and figure out whats goin on vs oh it must be this or that....

 

ive put alot of dry rock in a 90g and had no issue at all no soaking no nothing, but it was out of one of my old tanks so i know what it had been in and thru

was the dry rock from another persons tank, did they ever use copper etc.

 

sooo many variables, time to start getting rid of them and see what needs to be done

 

 

another note.....doing a large water change will help more vs 3 or 4 10% water changes.

 

bad things happen quickly in reefing, figure out what is was and deal with it.

    So many things to answer. lol

 Yes he did overFeed, I asked him this morning, he said 1 Cube...  I have 4 fish... all small!!!  Way Tooo Much.lol

 I'll look into getting a PolyPad...

 I'm not sure what the Salinity was before. I saw the water level, and got right to making water, and adding some Freshwater- SlowDrippedIntoTank--

   I still only have the DipStrip TestKit, but plan on buying a kit eventually, as It looks like with Keeping Corals Like these... Will Have To have it....

I dunno if they did use Copper on it before... I sure hopeNOT, I'll look for a Coin in there. could've been a Dumbass friend trrying to MakeAWish??  ??

  

  And Since Yesterday/LastNight...  I have done a 10 % at 4Pm, Followed by another 10% around 10pm, I bought 10 Gallons right after My 1st Water Change and that means I had a 20%ish' change last night around 3AM ( I wasn't really feellin' tired, I wonder Why... 0.o .lol ) So that there is 3 Water Changes so far...

  I plan on doing another Water Change tonight or tomorrow I think another 10%-20%, Depending on how Everything is looking.... Tryin' to keep my hands out of it ATM....

  I have also Pulled out the Rock, Minus the piece that has the Xenia on it... I'm iffy' on what to do,, whether to leave it in there, Or Try to cut him off the best him I can, and then remove the rock into a separate place to Cycle and Cure, figured those are my choices on that one...  Ohhh TOM, It was the Rock Peice's that the SPS were on... Those 2 are my Culprit Rocks.

 

I almost always see at least some "reaction" of sorts to dry rock, like Marco rock when I add it - even if it's a few pounds of rubble. Diatoms, cyano... to me, it's just part of the system accommodating new elements in the tank. I've never added it in huge proportions to an existing tank, though, so that may be part of the issue here.

 

I suggest that the better lesson to take from this, Mason, is not to make big changes to your tank just before a protracted absence. Granted, you may not have known that you'd be gone as long as you were, but the lesson is still valid. Had you been home every evening, you would have picked up on the problem and taken action before it got to where it did.

 

If you're able, siphon up what cyano you can as a way of exporting the nutrients that it's got locked up in it.

I Think I'm Goin' to try that Sock Idea you told me about later tomorrow.    Or should I let the light Turn On today( the White band I mean, Blue is on at 20% right now until 8-9...)????

 

[TheyCallMeMr.703]

Ok. Are you sure its Xenia.? Bc I wasn't aware the Xenia walked. I know there is pulsing Xenia, but walking Xenia is new to me. Xenia spreads (encrusts) and grows like mat.

 Yes... I called it Walk just for Pure Enjoyment and to Confuse you my Dear Friend... LOL....  

"It's be Creeping up the Rock", one would say. lol  It is a Silver Xenia. Originally It did not pulse... I got it form a friend, After took it home, and put it in my tank, and started keeping up with my water, and then upgraded my lighting soon after... It Started to Pulse???   Pulse Like Crazy??   lol  A sign my tank was on the right track...   This was before all this, which is Why I fragged it into 6 pieces... and later on put the one piece on the rock.... Sorry to Confuse you my friend.

Edited September 18, 2013 by TheyCallMeMr.703

[Origami]

You can leave the lights completely off for a few days without ill effect, Mason. Cyano's ugly, but I doubt that it's the primary stressor for your corals. It simply hasn't had that much time. More likely, it's a symptom of changes in the water chemistry or available energy (for example, the light change).

 

Just a note on water changes: Four 10% water changes, done sequentially results in about 34% of the old water being changed for new. One 40% water change results in 40% of the old water being exchanged for new.

[howaboutme]

Just a note on water changes: Four 10% water changes, done sequentially results in about 34% of the old water being changed for new. One 40% water change results in 40% of the old water being exchanged for new.

 

Tom, good information. What's the equation for this? Just to clarify, does sequentially mean 1 wc per day or 1 wc immediately after another?

[TheyCallMeMr.703]

Copy That... So I only Did like a 36% really...lol.   I think it was the Chemistry of the water, and as you said, the Energy thing also... The cells could not receive the light they need, and the Cyano was choking their grip upon life...

      I'll re-test the water, and Depending upon that; will determine the size of the Water Change Tonight or tomorrow???   0.o Think I should do a 20% or 40%??? I think I may have to start makin' more water... ( Wish it didn't take so long to make... )(  Nothin' but time )





 

[TheyCallMeMr.703]

Tom, good information. What's the equation for this? Just to clarify, does sequentially mean 1 wc per day or 1 wc immediately after another?

One after the other, I think he means.... But same Principle...

Edited September 18, 2013 by TheyCallMeMr.703

[PK3]

 Yes he did overFeed, I asked him this morning, he said 1 Cube...  I have 4 fish... all small!!!  Way Tooo Much.lol

 

 I'm not sure what the Salinity was before. I saw the water level, and got right to making water, and adding some Freshwater- SlowDrippedIntoTank--

 

 

As a word of advice, you should leave instructions for the person who will be watching your tank.  From what you said, it sounded like he was topping off with saltwater instead of fresh water and was feeding too much.  Simple instructions would solve this problem in the future (e.g. feed 1/4 of a cube once a day, etc.).

 

I'm very confused.  How did you know the salinity was off based on the water level?  If you didn't know what the salinity was, how did you know to add freshwater right away?

[lutz123]

you could ever want to know about water changes...

 

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-10/rhf/index.php

[TheyCallMeMr.703]

As a word of advice, you should leave instructions for the person who will be watching your tank.  From what you said, it sounded like he was topping off with saltwater instead of fresh water and was feeding too much.  Simple instructions would solve this problem in the future (e.g. feed 1/4 of a cube once a day, etc.).

 

I'm very confused.  How did you know the salinity was off based on the water level?  If you didn't know what the salinity was, how did you know to add freshwater right away?

0.o..... Really???    Its very Simple Really.... When you have a container... and The water begins to Evaporate... Does the Salt go as well? No it remains in the container, but the water level continues to fall... When that happens, the Salinity level begins to Rise within' the Container... ...MiddleSchoolScienceClass...

   I'm sure there is an Exact Equation thing or Conversion to tell you exactly how much there is, and What is going on at what Rate.... But I do Not know the answer to that one...

   But You are soooo ooooooooo SOOoooooooooooo Right... I should've left Very Detailed Instructions for him, and by not doing that, and only Givin' him " The Basic's", It was not enough... He fed Enough in one day for almost 3-4.lol. and Also Never Added Any of the water I left... That and When the problem arose... He did not know how to Address it... as I quote him " You mean all that Brown stuff is not good???" <---- Talkin' about the Cyano....

  So Yes... Point Being... If you are having someone TankSit... Make sure They are as Diligent as You are... and Actually Have the Basic Grasp of the field....

   ~~~ Worst part is... This Person has their own tank.... ;( FAIL ~~~

 

Edited September 18, 2013 by TheyCallMeMr.703

[Origami]

Tom, good information. What's the equation for this? Just to clarify, does sequentially mean 1 wc per day or 1 wc immediately after another?

A 10% water change leaves 90% of the old water. So the equation is:

 

%changed = 1 - (0.90^n) where n is the number of water changes. In a table, it looks like this (assuming a 10% water change):

 

n   %water changed

1    10%

2    19%

3    27%

4    34%

5    41%

 

If implementing a 5% water change, change the 0.90 to 0.95. If implementing a 20% water change, change it to 0.80. Etc.

[TheyCallMeMr.703]

A 10% water change leaves 90% of the old water. So the equation is:

 

%changed = 1 - (0.90^n) where n is the number of water changes. In a table, it looks like this (assuming a 10% water change):

 

n   %water changed

1    10%

2    19%

3    27%

4    34%

5    41%

 

If implementing a 5% water change, change the 0.90 to 0.95. If implementing a 20% water change, change it to 0.80. Etc.

[Origami]

Assuming that your 55 evaporates 0.5 gallons per day (which is not unusual given the surface area), and then growing this to 3/4 gallon per day just to exaggerate a little, then over 4 days, your salinity might have risen from 35 ppt (1.024 sg) to 37 ppt (1.028 sg). That's not a huge swing really. One that you'd want to correct, but not something catastrophic.

 

Topping off a tank is, for some reason, not immediately obvious to most non-aquarists .... It's probably one of those things that we need to stress more when briefing the person that we entrust the tank to when we're gone. I remember one member here leaving for an extended business trip and coming home to a tank that had evaporated 1/4 to 1/3 of it's water. It was an obvious mess. Yet the caretaker continued to feed the tank.

[TheyCallMeMr.703]

Assuming that your 55 evaporates 0.5 gallons per day (which is not unusual given the surface area), and then growing this to 3/4 gallon per day just to exaggerate a little, then over 4 days, your salinity might have risen from 35 ppt (1.024 sg) to 37 ppt (1.028 sg). That's not a huge swing really. One that you'd want to correct, but not something catastrophic.

 

Topping off a tank is, for some reason, not immediately obvious to most non-aquarists .... It's probably one of those things that we need to stress more when briefing the person that we entrust the tank to when we're gone. I remember one member here leaving for an extended business trip and coming home to a tank that had evaporated 1/4 to 1/3 of it's water. It was an obvious mess. Yet the caretaker continued to feed the tank.

   OOOO, My blood literally Boiled just reading that, Could only imagine that Poor Person... That Caretaker Got it Good after that, I bet.lol

  

 So it sounds like It wasn't the salt, Sure it didn't help tho'... But They Could Actually Live in that I'm Sure..  Maybe not Thrive.. but Nonethless. Good to know... and Your math Does sound About right. lol  But Since It's you Tom... I'm sure it is..

[Der ABT]

and another fyi its ok to lower the salinity quickly, aka just get the correct amount of water in....its just like when it rains as long as it doesnt dip too low of course

its the raising of salinity that needs to be done slowly.

 

 

i doubt the penny thing but it was just and idea

just go buy a polypad, its literally like a sponge that changes colors with contaminents and is under 10 bucks....if there is copper i think it turns blue, organics brown etc etc...

 

 

option for the rock, take it out and put it in a bucket with some of that water change water and a heater, and just change its water every so often when you change your tanks if you want to keep whats on it alive that should suffice.

Xenia is cheap and easy to find from the locals...that stuff is a weed to me like kenya tree's i see it i pick it and chuck it.

[TheyCallMeMr.703]

and another fyi its ok to lower the salinity quickly, aka just get the correct amount of water in....its just like when it rains as long as it doesnt dip too low of course

its the raising of salinity that needs to be done slowly.

 

 

i doubt the penny thing but it was just and idea

just go buy a polypad, its literally like a sponge that changes colors with contaminents and is under 10 bucks....if there is copper i think it turns blue, organics brown etc etc...

 

 

option for the rock, take it out and put it in a bucket with some of that water change water and a heater, and just change its water every so often when you change your tanks if you want to keep whats on it alive that should suffice.

Xenia is cheap and easy to find from the locals...that stuff is a weed to me like kenya tree's i see it i pick it and chuck it.

Copy That, I'll check it out... Deff' on the List for Friday.

  And I have thought about it... But I grew that Coral from a small one.. :(  I don't wanna' kill it. LOL. Sounds Stupid, huh??? lol, I may just Do that tho;.... And Just Put a 50/50 Mini-Screw-In CFL Bulb to keep it Alive. Did GREAT under it Before   haha Before the D120

[elbowdeep88]

Ive been trying to follow this today.

Sounds like overfeeding (mostly), maybe some issues from the rock (secondary, at most, to the overfeeding). Issues with salinity creeping up. Possible photo issues d/t new light fixture /increasing too much?

 

So your present course of action is to do some WCs, trying to siphon all the extra gunk that you can from the rocks/sand, siphoning cyano off the corals, reducing photoperiod/intensity, stabilizing salinity. testing water for pH, alk, NO3, NO2, NH4 would be very helpful.

 

Is this all what happened/where you are now/your planned course of action? If so and you do this stuff Im sure itll all settle down and be fine.

 

Do you have any other questions? or should we let this rest for a day or two while you implement the suggestions?

[TheyCallMeMr.703]

  This is my tank Right before I left Last week....

[howaboutme]

One after the other, I think he means.... But same Principl

 

The reason I ask is because if you're capable of changing (adding) a smaller batch of saltwater one after another, there is no reason why you can't add that larger batch at one time. This limitation is usually logistics (large container at home for SW, which some don't have, for example)...That's why I think the question is relevant.

 

you could ever want to know about water changes...

 

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-10/rhf/index.php

 

Granted, I read fully part of it and skimmed the rest but it talks about "large batch", "small batch" and "continuous" water changes. The "small batch" changes seems to indicated it's daily and not one right after another. One after another seems more closely related to the "continuous" water changes where water is added at the same time it's removed, I guess like a Genesis system.

 

When talking about the differences in wc's, the article seems to indicate that changing X% amount of water per month can either be once or multiple times that adds up to that X%. That seems to tell me again that it's not sequential, one after another but separated by day(s).

 

A 10% water change leaves 90% of the old water. So the equation is:

 

%changed = 1 - (0.90^n) where n is the number of water changes. In a table, it looks like this (assuming a 10% water change):

 

n   %water changed

1    10%

2    19%

3    27%

4    34%

5    41%

 

If implementing a 5% water change, change the 0.90 to 0.95. If implementing a 20% water change, change it to 0.80. Etc.

 

Thanks, Tom. Need to get this in excel. It's very handy bit of info.

Edited September 18, 2013 by howaboutme

[sachabballi reef]

ok so it appears you ALREADY had the cyano prior to ever leaving the tank per your video....so it just multiplied in your absence...its not like it was a complete shock for you to find it in the tank......

[bqq100]

When talking about the differences in wc's, the article seems to indicate that changing X% amount of water per month can either be once or multiple times that adds up to that X%. That seems to tell me again that it's not sequential, one after another but separated by day(s).

 

 

Depends on how quickly the new water completely mixes with the water left in the tank.  Worst case, the new water mixes completely with the existing water instantly, in which case 4 10% changes 1 day apart, and 4 10% changes 10 minutes apart are basically the same (ignoring new contaminants added to the tank).  Best case, the new water mixes very slowly and your 4 10% changes 10 minutes apart is more like 1 40% change.  Somewhere in the middle lies reality (definitely closer to the worst case if your pumps are running).  

 

If you have a large enough sump you can turn off your return, remove the water from the sump, add new water to the sump, then remove another batch of water from the DT, and then add new water to the DT tank.  In that case 2 10% changes would be exactly the same as 1 20% change.

[trockafella]

ok so it appears you ALREADY had the cyano prior to ever leaving the tank per your video....so it just multiplied in your absence...its not like it was a complete shock for you to find it in the tank......

I agree.. It seems there is some underlying issues here.. No offense, but it seems you have basically just observed the tank with pretty much no testing what so ever, dip strips are nearly useless.

My advice is stop spending money on corals/fish/rock etc and spend it on the things you really need, ie test kits,refractometer, ato, better filtration, etc... All the things you claim to be the issues while you were gone I don't think are really your issues. Its just much easier to point a finger somewhere other than yourself. You make think what I am saying is harsh, and that's fine. But I believe your tank has issues bc you've failed to properly keep it up.. What occurred while your petsitter was there and the rock thing (which I still don't think has much if anything to do with it) IMO was not enough time for "all this" to occur. As mentioned by Jenn, your video clearly shows Cyano issues before. You really have no idea where your parameters are.. What are you using to test the salinity.?

[Origami]

BTW, when I say "sequentially" for water changes, I'm assuming that there is a sufficient amount of time between changes that the water thoroughly mixes - typically days apart, but sometimes as little as 30 minutes apart (in which case, I ask, why not just do one large one).

 

Small daily, or near-continuous water changes provide the benefit of a more stable water chemistry. That is, the changes to the water chemistry for any one change is smaller. Justin (Ctenophore) was doing small incremental daily changes a while back, though I'm not sure that he still does.

 

I've read that some people do simultaneous changes with water that's slightly colder being added near the bottom of the aquarium while taking water off the top (overflow). The theory here is that they are taking advantage of the density difference and slow mixing to make an effective water change.

[TheyCallMeMr.703]

  --->BBQ and Reef, I did have some Earlier... It was Alright, Looks Really bad in the Video, But Not that bad in Person... It was Alright tho', Cause It is doing It's job..... As They were Absorbing the Excess Nutrients, I figured, Would leave and Keep it Manageable and let it be for awhile, then take some out as Tom had the same Thought as I...  No Big Deal really...

    It is Cycling so that will happen, So it was nothing to freak out about, No Really harmful effects, Which is alright... Its just the Extent It got to while I was gone , by the Excess growth from feeding, The Filter not Moving water, So less circulation, which allowed for More Detritus to settle and Become Stagnant.... it went bad... It is my fault as I have said Many times. I should've gave Better Directions, Showed how to feed, and Had Everything Laid out, and Changed the Filter before I left, Including Who knows If he worked on a car, or did something like that and put his hands in, I did say that He had to wash his hands before

 

  The Rock was not the Best Idea... I was watching it VERY diligently, But as I said.. With the Decrease in Water Flow That allowed for More problems to get outta' Control... Nonetheless.. I should've pulled it at the first sign... But was Hoping it would be alright... 

    And as Origami ( Tom ) said... Should I have of been there, It would've been addressed... He's met me... and Seen my tank... Even the Growth after a month or 2... He knows how Diligent I am about my tank, and how much attention I pay to it ( Prob Wayyyy too much. ).
  

       --> Trock,  I have been working on Upgrading, I have not bought new coral Minus the piece from the Auction, in Over 4-5 months or More... All these Corals have been collected or given' from others over the past year...  ( I did buy a good amount tho' ) ( believe it or not.. I got the Big Frogspawn colonies form someone that owed me some money.lol. )

   So Right and Wrong... But Yes I do gotta' upgrade.. I'm working on turning a 15 gallon into a Refugium type of tank, with another tank Possibly next to that one as well. This will Aid in that process or to be a Frag. Ideally I'll have a 15g or a 20g Like, Up to the right, flowing into the 55, Then Plumped and Under, another 55 to act as a Sump/Refugium....

   So In Due Time... I have a couple of contracts lined up I gotta' finish first before I get the stuff I need. ATM my tank is Like a BiggAss Nano.lol  Just LiveRock, a Powerhead, Sand, and a Carbon Filter. :)    

 

      But now with the new Corals I have , The Demand for Better and more Stable water conditions has arrived, so that will have to be addressed by Upgrading the System.

     As you said also, so... I may be looking for your Help in the future. 

   I will need to Drill a tank or 2, sometime in the near Future. Also have to Build and Design a Sump From a 55 or something alike, most likely... But That's Later.

    ATM, it is Plumbing my 15 to the 55....

[steveoutlaw]

Just a word to the wise.........people are trying to understand you so they can help you.  The thread is hard to follow and people are trying to make sure they have the facts straight so they can give you accurate advice.  However, when you respond like an a$$ to someone's suggestion it really makes it hard for them to want to help you in the future.  And trust me, you are going to want these folks around to help you in the future.  So I suggest you take their comments with the gratitude they deserve rather than taking the comments as an insult and responding in kind. 

[Djplus1]

Just a word to the wise.........people are trying to understand you so they can help you.  The thread is hard to follow and people are trying to make sure they have the facts straight so they can give you accurate advice.  However, when you respond like an a$$ to someone's suggestion it really makes it hard for them to want to help you in the future.  And trust me, you are going to want these folks around to help you in the future.  So I suggest you take their comments with the gratitude they deserve rather than taking the comments as an insult and responding in kind. 

+1