Eliminating Water Changes

[Djplus1]

Have you ever been on a dive to see a shipwreck to see if the critters specifically don't like to live on the copper/brass parts of the ship as opposed to the steel parts?  Once I started learning how bad copper and zinc are for marine invertebrates I keep trying to watch for it on nature shows.

I wonder the same thing. If rusty metal and copper are soooooo bad in a reef tank you would think that corals would be no where near a shipwreck.

[sachabballi reef]

I didn't even notice when I went bald. I think my wife told me.

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OMG I just laughed so hard....

Paul I simply adore you

 

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

 

 

[holedup82]

I wonder the same thing. If rusty metal and copper are soooooo bad in a reef tank you would think that corals would be no where near a shipwreck.

I agree but I guess even on the wreck the ratio of "contamination" to water makes the difference. I wonder if we could recreate to scale a "shipwreck" if our corals would be able to adapt/survive? No no no I'm not volunteering

 

[Coral Hind]

I wonder the same thing. If rusty metal and copper are soooooo bad in a reef tank you would think that corals would be no where near a shipwreck.

The iron is not such a big deal compared to copper. As AlanM stated they do grow on the steel, but not so much on the copper and brass. I worked at LFS and when we tore down a coral display tank that had been set up for years we found about 20 rusted razor bladesbehind the rockwork. The iron never seemed to bother the corals at all.

 

The solution to pollution is dilution, so with the large water volume constantly flowing over the wreck the concentration in the water will always be extremely low, near zero.

[paul b]

 I worked at LFS and when we tore down a coral display tank that had been set up for years we found about 20 rusted razor bladesbehind the rockwork. The iron never seemed to bother the corals at all.

 

 

And besides the razor blades not bothering them, I bet they all had nice clean shaves.

I don't know why everyone gets so crazy about iron in their tank.  Copper is different and corals do not grow on copper as it kills them and all invertabrates.  Old sailing ships were plated with copper below the water line to prevent barnacle growth.  That is why the old American sailing ship "The Constitution" was called "Old Ironsides"

Copper is still used today in bottom boat paint to eliminate barnacles and other sea life.  But barnacles and corals love iron.

[londonloco]

I can't remember the specifics, but some where in my hi tech planted days I read there a difference in the iron we introduce to our tanks via rust and the iron that is "naturally" found in water.   Anyone?

[gmerek2]

Iron is soft so they mix to make products we buy harder stronger. So i figured my rusted clamp was an iron ore. Im not a metallurgical engineer so I dont know what Ingredients are used in making these products. Which is why I freaked out. My birdsnest didnt seem to like it. How many gallons total did this razor blade tank have? Some LFS have every tank connected and very diluted like you were saying.

[gmerek2]

Steel is an alloy of iron and other elements, including carbon. When carbon is the primary alloying element, its content in the steel is between 0.002% and 2.1% by weight. The following elements are always present in steel: carbon, manganese, phosphorus, sulfur, silicon, and traces of oxygen, nitrogen and aluminum. Alloying elements intentionally added to modify the characteristics of steel include: manganese, nickel, chromium, molybdenum, boron, titanium, vanadium and niobium.^[1]

 are any of these bad?

[AlanM]

And besides the razor blades not bothering them, I bet they all had nice clean shaves.

I don't know why everyone gets so crazy about iron in their tank.  Copper is different and corals do not grow on copper as it kills them and all invertabrates.  Old sailing ships were plated with copper below the water line to prevent barnacle growth.  That is why the old American sailing ship "The Constitution" was called "Old Ironsides"

Copper is still used today in bottom boat paint to eliminate barnacles and other sea life.  But barnacles and corals love iron.

 

I hope they do love it because I tried out GFO a few days ago and ended up with rust fines all over the tank even after rinsing it before putting it in.   My powerheads turned orange even though I couldn't see the rust going in there, heh.

[Origami]

Iron can be bio-available or not. Chelated iron is generally bio-available, rust is not. It's not normally going to be a problem in our tanks in low concentrations. Copper is a different story. Other heavy metals can problematic, too, although the levels for toxicity will probably vary by metal and by species.

[paul b]

Steel is an alloy of iron and other elements, including carbon. When carbon is the primary alloying element, its content in the steel is between 0.002% and 2.1% by weight. The following elements are always present in steel: carbon, manganese, phosphorus, sulfur, silicon, and traces of oxygen, nitrogen and aluminum. Alloying elements intentionally added to modify the characteristics of steel include: manganese, nickel, chromium, molybdenum, boron, titanium, vanadium and niobium.^[1]

 are any of these bad?

In the amounts present in steel, no.  Steel is mostly iron and carbon.  Carbon is all over a fish tank so you need worry about that.  You need not worry about anything unless a meteorite containing massive amounts of copper slams into your tank with the force of 1,000 atom bombs.  You should worry about that, but forget about razor blades in your tank.  You will hear horror stories from many people but the fact remains that my tank is over 40 years old and has had plenty of iron in there.

I am afraid to walk past my tank with a magnet, because I feel the tank would be drawn to it and fall down from all the iron.

 

Iron can be bio-available or not. Chelated iron is generally bio-available,

 

Chelated, non chelated, chlorinated, castrated, bio-illuminated, available, not available, or in hospitable. go out and have a nice glass of merlot and forget about iron.  Just don't go see "Iron Man" or it will remind you of it.

Edited August 15, 2013 by paul b

[YHSublime]

I am afraid to walk past my tank with a magnet, because I feel the tank would be drawn to it and fall down from all the iron.

 

Chelated, non chelated, chlorinated, castrated, bio-illuminated, available, not available, or in hospitable. go out and have a nice glass of merlot and forget about iron.  Just don't go see "Iron Man" or it will remind you of it.

 

Sometimes I wonder if it's really Paul B. behind your avitar, and not John Cleese.

[paul b]

John Who?

[Origami]

If you really want to know / learn more about iron and a reef tank, read this by Randy Holmes-Farley.

 

(Not implying a concern here. Just pointing you to something serious on the topic.)

[londonloco]

Interesting enough, the past few months I was battling diatoms on half of my fw tanks.  Found out a few weeks ago my permanganate tank had a slow leak in it, and the iron in my water was way higher than it should be.  We just replaced the tank last week, I did a major wc yesterday on all tanks.   It will take a few more days to notice if they come back in full force again, I'm betting not after reading that article.  I do find it strange that only 3 (out of 6) tanks that use straight well water had the problem.  The other 3 tanks were diatom free. 

[paul b]

Tom I read it and if you also read it, you would also know that that particular study proved nothing.

 

 

Unlike the research areas described above, the work on corals has been very limited, with three papers meriting attention. The first and most important of these papers, Response of a scleractinian coral, Stylophora pistillata, to iron and nitrate enrichment, was published in the Journal of Experimental Marine Biology and Ecology.21 The experiments in this paper essentially consisted of putting coral fragments (7 cm long) in a series of tanks. The fragments were monitored for 4 weeks, the water was altered chemically, and the fragments were monitored for another 3 weeks. This monitoring consisted of several measurements: coral growth rate, zooxanthellae density, photosynthesis rate, and chlorophyll content.

 

They watched the corals for 4 weeks and weighed them and found that that particular coral lost weight but they can't be sure if it was the nitrate, phosphate, iron or a combination that caused the effect.   In the next segment, they tested iron on a different coral and found that the coral actually grew.  So it seems some corals may like iron and some may not.

I am saying that all of my SPS and LPS corals have been growing for many years, much longer than the 4 weeks in that experiment.  The last time iron was tested in my tank by a lab it measured 0.05 which is many times over the normal range of iron in the sea which is about 0.00014-0.045.  I think my 40 year test shows more than their 4 week test.  Am I wrong?

I am not saying to add iron, I am saying to not go nuts if you drop a razor blade or screw in your tank.   If you accidently drop a transmission from a Pontiac GTO in there, that may overdose it.

[londonloco]

........If you accidently drop a transmission from a Pontiac GTO in there, that may overdose it.

Cracking up, that is funny. 

[Origami]

Yes, Paul, but it does summarize what relevant research there is into the area and what questions are being asked. Sometimes knowing what questions there are that are being asked sheds some light into the darkness. In response to proving nothing, different and sometimes conflicting conclusions were reached in the different studies. That is not unusual really. Resolving the differences between studies is often a study in itself. Some stuff may be relevant to our needs. High levels of iron (I'm assuming that this means chelated, not free iron, because nobody doses free iron) may be linked to browning in certain brightly colored corals. It may also be linked to lightening in Sinularia spp. There may also be a link to reduced coral growth rates. Several studies are cited, not just one.

 

And, there's no harm in reading some serious work on a subject.

 

And, I agree with you not to worry about paperclips and razor blades dropped into the tank. For the most part, there's no evidence of that being a problem. But there IS a difference between that kind of iron and chelated iron in their availability and impact to living organisms. So, while dropping a razor blade in may have no impact, dosing iron in the form of a supplement to the same extent CAN BE. They are not the same, so global statements like iron isn't a worry are wrong.

[paul b]

Cracking up, that is funny. 

Would it be less funny if I said 1955 Oldsmobile transmission? because I was going for that, and I used to be a mechanic for Oldsmobile so it comes into my head more often.

 

And, there's no harm in reading some serious work on a subject

 

Of course not Tom.  I actually read a lot and have read just about every book on sea life from the time sea life was invented.  I have no problem with scientific study, but I also feel that real world evidence is just as important.

As you said scientists will not agree on everything.  So if they don't agree, who, if any of them do we believe?

When this hobby started I read everything on the subject and books were usually written by marine biologists.  As I got more experience I started to doubt much of what I was reading until I got to the point where I started writing myself.  And virtually everything I have ever submitted to a real or virtual magazine was printed as fact.  I am an electrician, why would anyone believe me?  I could be making this stuff up.  We can't believe everything we read.  But I sited my tank as an example only because I have proof it has been running for decades, I can show you the corals growing and the tests from a lab.  I posted pictures of the iron that is in there.  To me that is tangable proof that a little iron won't hurt corals.

As you know, I didn't go to college, that war thing and all (I am actually proud of that) so I can't get into these scientific conversations with many of you more educated people.  And I know that I know that you know who you are.

Anyway, I forgot what this topic was about and Tom, I enjoy these conversations.

Have a great night

[Origami]

Lol. Topic is eliminating water changes. Glad to see you value the science as well as the experience. You know, that's why I brought you in in the first place. I figured it would be refreshing to hear from somebody who's watched it evolve in recent times. You've got to admit, it does change and you're probably doing things today that you weren't doing 40 years ago. Getting that perspective (even from others in the hobby for far less time) and is always valuable, even if anecdotal.

 

Hope all is well.

 

Sent from my phone

 

 

[Coral Hind]

Old sailing ships were plated with copper below the water line to prevent barnacle growth.  That is why the old American sailing ship "The Constitution" was called "Old Ironsides"

I love military history so I will have to correct or add to this. It is true that the USS Constitution is clad in copper below the water line but that is not how it got the nickname. It was in the battle where it captured the British ship HMS Guerriere. A sailor on the HMS Guerriere saw 18-pounders bouncing off the hull of the USS Constitution and yelled, "Huzza, her sides are made of iron!" At that time it wasn't a well know fact that the American oak used is much denser than English oak and the British fleet was surprised.

 

 

Back to topic. I would have to see a full blown SPS reef tank going for years with no water changes, only supplements added before I change my mind that they are not needed. Sure no water changes might work with some weeds like softies but I have never seen a nice SPS TOTM that didn't have regular water changes done on it.

 

If water changes are not important then why when ever someone says their corals don't seem happy or healthy the first reply post is to do a large water change.

 

.

[RW09903]

Lol. Topic is eliminating water changes. Glad to see you value the science as well as the experience. You know, that's why I brought you in in the first place. I figured it would be refreshing to hear from somebody who's watched it evolve in recent times. You've got to admit, it does change and you're probably doing things today that you weren't doing 40 years ago. Getting that perspective (even from others in the hobby for far less time) and is always valuable, even if anecdotal.

 

Hope all is well.

 

Sent from my phone

i too didn't realize what I would have started.

[Coral Hind]

You could try to lower the frequency of your water changes slightly and see if it has any negative changes. If not it might save you some time and money by not doing more than what is needed. For coral tanks I prefer larger monthly or every other month over the weekly changes.

[londonloco]

You could try to lower the frequency of your water changes slightly and see if it has any negative changes. If not it might save you some time and money by not doing more than what is needed. For coral tanks I prefer larger monthly or every other month over the weekly changes.

I'm interested in this preference.  I do weekly 20% wc's on all tanks, always have.  I thought I'd start w/10% weekly on the 60g that is cycling as I type.  Why do you prefer larger monthly wc's.  I'd so prefer to do that then weekly....

[Coral Hind]

Time is the main issue plus one larger volume change does a better job at diluting pollutants than four smaller changes. See the link which shows with a chart that one 30% change is better than the same volume of smaller changes. So why spend the extra time weekly when I can just do it once a month. Also, since I tend to spill water, have bucket overflows, and so on, the less times I do it the less chance of an accident.

 

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-10/rhf/index.php