AcePuck35 August 4, 2011 Share August 4, 2011 (edited) Hello All! I just joined WAMAS. I have been reading the forums the last couple of days and have found a lot of good information and I am learning a lot. Before you all read below and think I am whining and complaining about how much everything costs, I thought this would be a good opportunity for people to discuss any and all cost saving ideas besides setting up a new tank on a budget... A few years ago I had a 10 gallon reef tank with no sump that was running great for about a year. Then one day out of no where it crashed and I lost everything. I had live rock and sand, corals, snails, hermit crabs, a peppermint shrimp and 2 gobies. I never set it back up and ended up just trashing it all. Now I would like to start a new system the right way with a sump and a protein skimmer but don't have a lot of money to spend and I know this hobby can get very expensive. My current plan is to have a DT in a 40 breeder with a 20 gallon sump and a 20 gallon frag tank. I would also like an in the sump with a protein skimmer and MH lights. My question is can a system like this be built without spending a lot of money even before the water goes in? I have been looking on ebay and craigs list and I have not found a lot out there right now. It is difficult to find places online that will ship you tanks, petco and petsmart don't sell predrilled tanks anymore. (With tanks this small I know I will have to drill them my self which is not a problem). I figure that I will build my own stand and canopy. I have found some retro light kits online but they are even a little pricy. I have herd a lot of people say don't skimp on the protein skimmer, Ok good advice but where can I find a good one and know it is going to work? After the hardware gets set up what about stocking it? Any cost saving ideas there? I have seen a lot of people on here raising there own fish and corals and selling and trading them, I think that is a great concept so the oceans are not being robbed I eventually would like to participate in that. How about water testing and supplements, any cost savings there? I read that baking soda is good for alkalinity. Can someone explain that better please? What does it do specifically, it raises the ph and adds calcium for corals is this correct? Any and all cost saving ideas are appreciated, even if it is not something to do with my specific set up but would help other with their aquariums please share. Thank you Adam Edited August 4, 2011 by AcePuck35 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roni August 4, 2011 Share August 4, 2011 Biggest thing that will save you money in this hobby is to read carefully and ask questions and make the correct buy the first time. Let other people's experience help guide you. The 2nd thing that will help you save money is if you're handy. If you can DIY, you can save a ton of money in multiple areas. The 3rd is to keep an eye out on the for sale forums. Getting a nice complete setup from someone is a great way to save money. However, ultimately, this hobby is expensive. Many "shortcuts" can hurt you in the long run. I think if you had a budget in mind and then put together an equipment list, people would be able to give more specific recommendations. Welcome to Wamas and best of luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chad August 4, 2011 Share August 4, 2011 A couple of things to keep in mind for cost savings are penny-wise pound foolish and long-term costs. What I mean by penny-wise and pound foolish is buying cheap only to repurchase later (an extrememly common thing I have noticed) and buying something that will not meet immediate or future needs. And what I mean by long-term costs is efficiency of equipment... buying a cheap, but energy hogging, piece of equipment will quickly erase any up-front savings you may have had. From your questions, I would recommend that you read a good book or two on the hobby, as that is really the best way to learn the basics. I recommend The Conscientious Marine Aquarist by Bob Fenner as a starting point. Also, if you become a member I think this is a book that the club has available for borrow. Further thought for becoming a member is being able to pick equipment and livestock up from fellow members who may be selling what you want. Bottom line, though, saltwater equipment and setup is expensive up-front. My best advice is to research a lot and then bite the bullet on equipment, then resist change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Origami August 4, 2011 Share August 4, 2011 Actually, Ace, you just joined our forum as a bulletin board member.... There's a complete world of WAMAS out there that you are not part of. The best $20 you can spend in this hobby will be on WAMAS membership. Click on the link in my signature and you'll see what I mean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingfish August 4, 2011 Share August 4, 2011 Join WAMAS, there are plenty of members with endless experience and excellent deals on used equipment... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AcePuck35 August 4, 2011 Author Share August 4, 2011 Thanks for those who have replied so far. Tom, yes you are correct I only did the BB membership. I am going to join and pay the $20 very soon because I also read there is a lot mone on the fourem I don't have access to yet and would like to get more information that is not currently available to me so far. Does anyone have any specific advice for particular equipment. I have read about what most of you are saying before which is basically don't be so cheap now because it will be more costly in the long run. Is there a good place to find out if one price of equipment Is better then others? In your experiences are there better brands then others? Is there a specific information I should be looking for when reviewing equipment. Thanks again for replying Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roni August 4, 2011 Share August 4, 2011 Really depends on your budget. If I were setting up a 40 gallon and wanted to do it on the cheap, I would do the following. Pick up a 150 MH pendant (probably around 150 used) small NW skimmer (there was one on the forum the other day for $150 which was pretty good, someone getting out of the hobby). There also is a ASM G3 which is a nice skimmer which was also for sale under $100. Small skimmers that are good for your size tank include the SRO 1000, SW 160, and ASM G2/G3 An Eheim 1250 as a return pump (low energy, will save you money in terms of electricity, very dependable) 1-2 Koralias in tank for in tank water motion a small auto top off. That system could probably be put together for about $550-600 and would be a good start for a fair number of corals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flowerseller August 4, 2011 Share August 4, 2011 set up a really small tank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chad August 5, 2011 Share August 5, 2011 I agree with Chip. What do you want to keep? Equipment recommendations are pretty tough to make without knowledge of the critters you would like to provide an environment for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave w August 5, 2011 Share August 5, 2011 I agree with Chip. What do you want to keep? Equipment recommendations are pretty tough to make without knowledge of the critters you would like to provide an environment for. If you have some time you can build your own live rock and save a little money. However in a small tank the savings will not be too great because you can buy cured rubble rock pretty cheaply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zygote2k August 5, 2011 Share August 5, 2011 save money from the start by nixing the frag tank and associated equipment. You need to grow the corals first, then you might be able to frag them... You should be able to piece together a 40 DT, sump, skimmer, light, pumps, etc for less than $750 if you shop around on WAMAS and CL and have the patience to wait for good deals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jan August 5, 2011 Share August 5, 2011 (edited) After 20 years I decided to get back into this hobby. I wanted to start out with a nano. I read, researched and read what was new, what equipment was being used, how folks were setting up their systems these days, etc. I didn't know WAMAS existed so I went out to CL and purchased a used 24 gallon JBJ nano with integrated lights. Then I purchased a used JBJ nano skimmer on ebay, new heater, 2 nano power heads and a hydrometer. The total cost was $200.00 for the tank and stand and about another $100 for everything else. This was sufficient to start and sufficient for my needs at the time. Then I joined WAMAS for $20.00. I upgraded the lights to T5's that I purchased from a WAMAS member for $150.00. I purchased frags from fellow members for a fraction of what I'd pay online. Then I got more frags at fragfest (because I became a member). I got discounts from our sponsoring vendors for being a member. My 24 gallon nano was packed within a year (see gallery pics). I needed bigger! I sold the 24 gallon tank stand with the power heads, then the the T5's and skimmer separately. I used the money (made it all back and then some) for my 75 gallon set up. My 75 gallon set up with stand lights, sump and an ASM G-2 cost about $650.00 minus $400.00 I made from selling my 24 gallon, T5's and nano skimmer. My tank is a 75 gallon AGA reef ready with overflow and a 20 gallon sump. My lights are Cora life x2 150watt MH that came with x4- 65 watt PC's. I found a modification for the light and asked a WAMAS member if he could modify the lights to T5's for me. He did it in about 2 hours. The lights, if I were to purchase the unit new, would cost me over $750. I purchased them from a WAMAS member for less than half the original cost. (see pics in gallery) I purchased most all of my equipment from WAMAS members and It's all in very good condition, all except for the stand. It's time for a new stand. I researched, read (equipment reviews, postings here and on reef central and other sites) and searched everyday for the items I needed and wanted. I also asked lots of questions. Eventually what I needed came along and everything came together. Starting with a nano worked for me. Purchasing equipment that had good resale value helps. I found that I paid about 1/3 of the actual cost for really good used equipment. If you become a member you can see what's for sale and in one purchase you will easily make your membership money back. Then there are the discounts from our sponsors as well as corals and livestock sold by other members. We're always giving things away to each other. Someone gave away a 90 gallon tank and stand in excellent condition about a year and a half ago. The most valuable part of becoming a member is the advice and help you will get from other members. Edited August 5, 2011 by Jan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest thefishman65 August 5, 2011 Share August 5, 2011 Not to say WAMAS is not great, but you asked about baking soda and alkalinity. Maybe I have missed it here on WAMAS, but the best place I have found for a chemistry discussion is ReefCentral.com. There are many recipe for cheaper dosing options. But by all means read! DIY the dosing stuff is a whole new realm for error Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Origami August 5, 2011 Share August 5, 2011 How about water testing and supplements, any cost savings there? I read that baking soda is good for alkalinity. Can someone explain that better please? What does it do specifically, it raises the ph and adds calcium for corals is this correct? I totally missed this. Sorry. Let's start with alkalinity and it's relationship with calcium. Coral skeletons are principally composed of calcium carbonate which requires both calcium and alkalinity (principally in the form of bicarbonate in our tanks) in proportion (sometimes referred to as "balanced"). There are other ions that make it into the mix (magnesium is an important one), but calcium and alkalinity are the principal ones. For future reference, 20 ppm of calcium consumes 1 meq/l of alkalinity (or 2.8 dKH or 50 ppm, depending upon your preferred units of measurement). Unless you have organisms or some other process (abiotic precipitation, for example) that is consuming these ions, you needn't supplement for the losses. Most every tank, though, has some consumption of these ions and it's this consumption that leads us to supplement - e.g. to replace the consumed ions. Baking soda, or sodium bicarbonate, can be used to supplement alkalinity but does not contain calcium so it will not produce a calcium boost. Unless you have an unbalance to start with, your approach to supplementation should be balanced. That's where we, as hobbyists, have options. Common methods of restoring our tanks to desired levels of these ions include: Water changes Addition of unbalanced additives (two part is an example) in balanced proportions Supplementation using balanced additives (kalkwasser and calcium reactors are the most popular) The sodium bicarbonate that you refer to is just one part of the two part formula listed above. In conjunction with the surrounding CO2 in the air, a balance is established which drives your tank's pH to an acid-base equilibrium. (So it's not as simple as saying that baking soda is used to raise pH. In short order, your pH equilibrium will be re-established by the atmospheric concentration of CO2.) I've got a graph posted here somewhere that shows a relationship between the two for various alkalinity levels. There are cost analyses that hobbyists have published regarding the cost of each. Like a lot in this hobby, it's not a one-size-fits-all answer. For really small tanks, water changes are likely to be most cost effective. Two-part and kalkwasser can also have a low cost-of-entry if you dose them manually. Ultimately, many of us find manual dosing tedious and bring some automation into the picture at additional cost. For tanks with very high consumption, we tend to migrate toward calcium reactors, which work by dissolving reactor media (in the form of old coral skeletons) and adding that back to the tank. There are advantages and disadvantages to each method including acquisition and operating cost, convenience, impurities, and maintenance of long-term ionic balance. If you want a good overview of supplementation schemes, look here. If you want to learn more about two-part, here's a link to a very good article: If you want to learn more about reef chemistry, here's a link to an archive of some great articles, most by Randy Holmes-Farley, a chemist over at Genzyme and probably the most cited person when it comes to reef-chemistry questions. And finally, here's a link to a reef chemistry calculator that I really like. Keep it as a reference. Sooner or later, you may find it helpful. By the way, welcome to WAMAS! Your membership card will be going out in the mail today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chad August 5, 2011 Share August 5, 2011 Maybe I have missed it here on WAMAS, but the best place I have found for a chemistry discussion is ReefCentral.com. There are many recipe for cheaper dosing options. But by all means read! DIY the dosing stuff is a whole new realm for error I guess you missed it, Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AcePuck35 August 5, 2011 Author Share August 5, 2011 (edited) All, Thanks again for your valuable advice. To answer Chad's question, what I intend to keep? I would put a couple of Green Chromis in first to see how they do after the tank cycles. Then I would like to put two clown fish, probably True Percula and a small rose anemone. I would really like to put a coral beauty angel in but on some web sites it says it is ok to put them in a 40g tank and they are ok to keep with coral, and other web sites say they are not in both instances. Which is correct? I would like to keep a few shrimp and a clam or two. I may put a few gobies in there as well. As for Corals, I am a big fan of SPS corals. I would like to keep everything aquacultured as possible. Zygoat2k, you would be correct on both counts, 1. The additional cost for hardware on the frag tank is not necessary and 2. I need to grow them in my DT first before I frag them. My end objective would be to have a frag tank because one thing I like very much about this hobby is to watch things grow. But my initial thought is having the frag tank in the system first just as an empty tank with a return pump from the sump and an over flow back in to the sump just so I can add water volume into the system. I can add lights and things much later down the road. Roni and Jan, thank you for useful information about different equipment. I will check some of them out. Tom, thanks for all of your information, you corrected something I had totally wrong which was baking soda added calcium I guess I miss read another article somewhere. Thank you for clarifying that. And thank you for a point in the right direction on more places with more information. I will be sure to check out all of those sites. Does any one have any ideas on testing? I have read that spending a few extra dollars on some of those digital meters will save you money in the long run on one time use text kits? Any truth to this, are those meters accurate? Thank you again everyone. Edited August 5, 2011 by AcePuck35 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Origami August 5, 2011 Share August 5, 2011 Does any one have any ideas on testing? I have read that spending a few extra dollars on some of those digital meters will save you money in the long run on one time use text kits? Any truth to this, are those meters accurate? Some meters that are worthwhile include a pH monitor. (The color tests are such a pain and imprecise at that!) You need to make sure that you keep the probes calibrated, though. For that you need calibration solutions (readily purchased). Of course, you should have something to monitor temperature. Some electronic thermometers are good but can be inaccurate (One example is the little Coralife thermometer that I started out with years ago. What a waste.) I always back up any electronic thermometer with an old fashioned thermometer with calibration traceable back to a NIST standard. You can get them for a few bucks at a science supply store. Just use it from time to time to ensure that you're electronic thermometer is being truthful to you. There's a bunch of nice electronic testers ("checkers") which are made by Hanna Instruments (www.hannacheckers.com). There's a group buy going on them right now. Anyway, the checkers run around $50 each. Replacement reagents are available and the cost varies with what test it's for. Sometimes, if you calculate the per-test cost, you'll find that these tests are more expensive than some of the standard tests available. My experience with the alkalinity checker (based on calibrating it against a known standard) is that it is very accurate and the test is executed pretty quickly (no fuss). At $0.36 per test (based solely upon the fact that a 25-test replacement reagent costs $9, and does not include the initial cost of the checker), it's going to be more expensive than a conventional test kit (like Salifert, API, etc.). One thing going for it over these conventional test kits are that the reagents are good for 3 years or more, while we generally distrust any of the other test kits after about a year. When you settle into a groove, your most frequent tests (assuming that you're electronically monitoring pH and temperature), will be alkalinity, calcium, magnesium, and phosphate (in that order, or perhaps reversing the last two). Some people with elevated nitrates will also look at those while trying different strategies to manage that problem. Of the four I've listed, I test alkalinity most frequently (once every couple of weeks when things are stable). At the beginning, however, you'll find yourself testing ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates as your tank cycles. Many people here will use Salifert test kits. They're among the more expensive brands, but they're comfortable that the results that they're getting are accurate. You can find lots of reviews of test kits around. No brand is immune to criticism about accuracy. Some less-expensive brands give decent results; others are, in my opinion, unreliable. For example, I've had good luck with consistent performance of the API alkalinity test kit, but once had to adjust the testing protocol when one batch tested inaccurate against a calibration standard. (In that case, I adjusted the amount of tank water that I was using in the test tube, but otherwise followed the regular test protocol.) Since my first days in this hobby, however, I've not used the Red Sea test kits. Take that for what it's worth. My advice to you is, since you're starting out, get some decent, conventional test kits to start with, avoiding the big, up front investment in meters. You tend to over-test anyways at the start, so this will be more economical. Counting drops and measuring milliliters out of a syringe is kind of fun anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul b August 5, 2011 Share August 5, 2011 If you have some time you can build your own live rock and save a little money This is true, I built about a quarter of my rock and it is nicer than real rock and is practically free. For additives I make my own 2 part calcium with Randy's recipe, again, it is almost free. I don't dose anything else. For lighting I would go with LEDs. You will not have to change expensive MH bulbs and the LEDs will last 15 years or more while using about a third of the electricity. I recently converted. A 36 LED system cost me about $300.00 to built, just a little more then MH bulbs alone and the water stays cool so I don't need an expensive chiller. If you can't build the LED system yourself, get someone to do it, it is fairly easy and you just really need to know how to solder. I also don't use a sump as it is not needed. For food I use a lot of fresh clams and other seafood that I freeze. That costs maybe $20.00 a year. Don't feel that you have to change water every week as a lot of people do. It is not necessary. Every month or two is fine, I go 3 months between changes but in the beginning I would do more. I spend very little on this hobby and have been in it for over fifty years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest thefishman65 August 5, 2011 Share August 5, 2011 ^- Exception not the rule Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AcePuck35 August 5, 2011 Author Share August 5, 2011 (edited) Paul You bring up another question that I have been meaning to ask. Since I have starting doing all my research because it has been a wail since I have had a tank set up, the one new thing in the hobby is LED lights. I plan on having a lot of colorful corals. But the old rule of thumb was 4 to 6 watts per gallon, with LEDs each bulb is like 1 watt. With my plan of setting up a 40 gallon tank I would need around 200 watts of light (plus or minus) the old way. If I did an LED setup I would only get probably less then 40 watts. I understand the real thing to be looking at is the PAR value of the lighting and not really watts, so what I said above does not really matter as far as a watt to gallon ratio. Does the LED light PAR value compare to a MH light PAR value? Does the LED light penetrate to the bottom of the tank like MH? Also, is an LED set up that much cheaper then MH? What is everyone's opinion? Edited August 5, 2011 by AcePuck35 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AcePuck35 August 5, 2011 Author Share August 5, 2011 Sorry, Incorrect information in my post above, reading another post in this section there are 3 watt LEDs . Regardless what are peoples opinions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest thefishman65 August 5, 2011 Share August 5, 2011 24 Leds would get most things to grow. 36 should grow anything. 24 is about equivalent to a 250 MH. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jan August 6, 2011 Share August 6, 2011 Ahhh, you've never spoken to Tom and JM:). Not to say WAMAS is not great, but you asked about baking soda and alkalinity. Maybe I have missed it here on WAMAS, but the best place I have found for a chemistry discussion is ReefCentral.com. There are many recipe for cheaper dosing options. But by all means read! DIY the dosing stuff is a whole new realm for error Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Origami August 6, 2011 Share August 6, 2011 Ahhh, you've never spoken to Tom and JM:). Or Cliff (HighlandReefer), who's an entomologist by profession. Cliff helps moderate the RC Chem forum these days, standing in (along with Boomer and others) when Randy took a break last summer. We don't see him much these days, but he is somewhat local and can be enticed to show up from time to time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AcePuck35 August 8, 2011 Author Share August 8, 2011 Salt? Is there a better salt then another? I have used instant ocean before because it is readily available but is it a good brand? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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