Dave W's 3000 gal plankton/reef tank

[DuffyGeos]

On June 22 you had 26" of water in the tank.......it has been 3 weeks......is it full yet?

 

Pictures?

[dave w]

I filled it and the long front glass bowed 3/8", which is acceptable, although I may add another vertical flat bar on the front beam to help out.  However the frame is stainless steel and I am  not good at welding stainless, so I've been slow to solve that problem.  Does anyone have a DC welder to borrow or rent?

 

I am also adding a small extension to the greenhouse for (gulp) another few thousand gallons of copepod, moina and artemia culture.  I thought as long as I'm going to try breeding pygmy angels, I might as well breed the easier fish too (which is pretty much darn near everything).  And if I'm going to breed everything, then I need a lot more copepods.  The extension is right next to the tank footing and even though that weight has a low likelihood of causing problems, for safety's sake I drained the tank to take weight off the footing.  I think the small greenhouse extension will be done in about a month (I've said that before, haven't I?).  It will probably take longer, but perhaps in a month I can safely fill the tank again.

 

So that's the story of the past month.  I will add some pics of the extension when it looks better. 

 

I am hesitant to write this because my tank has taken so long most people are tired of reading about it.  But about six months ago it dawned on me that our hobby and our reefs are less served by captive bred angels that are in relatively few tanks, and better served by the prettiest blennies, gobies, darts and cardinals.  I don't know why it took me so long to realize this, Mr. Gunnet has been telling me that for years.  Sometimes I can be a little slow, but I make up for it by being hard headed.

[DuffyGeos]

I filled it and the long front glass bowed 3/8", which is acceptable, although I may add another vertical flat bar on the front beam to help out.  However the frame is stainless steel and I am  not good at welding stainless, so I've been slow to solve that problem.  Does anyone have a DC welder to borrow or rent?

 

I am also adding a small extension to the greenhouse for (gulp) another few thousand gallons of copepod, moina and artemia culture.  I thought as long as I'm going to try breeding pygmy angels, I might as well breed the easier fish too (which is pretty much darn near everything).  And if I'm going to breed everything, then I need a lot more copepods.  The extension is right next to the tank footing and even though that weight has a low likelihood of causing problems, for safety's sake I drained the tank to take weight off the footing.  I think the small greenhouse extension will be done in about a month (I've said that before, haven't I?).  It will probably take longer, but perhaps in a month I can safely fill the tank again.

 

So that's the story of the past month.  I will add some pics of the extension when it looks better. 

 

I am hesitant to write this because my tank has taken so long most people are tired of reading about it.  But about six months ago it dawned on me that our hobby and our reefs are less served by captive bred angels that are in relatively few tanks, and better served by the prettiest blennies, gobies, darts and cardinals.  I don't know why it took me so long to realize this, Mr. Gunnet has been telling me that for years.  Sometimes I can be a little slow, but I make up for it by being hard headed.

You should do Dwarf Angels, Anthias, Wrasses, and Clown Fish........At least those are my favorite fish.

[dave w]

The dwarf angels are looking easier than they were 2 years ago, there continues to be good progress there.  Anthias appear to be out of reach for a while longer.  I like both the flasher and fairy wrasses, they are pelagic spawners like the angels and probably share a lot of the same procedure.  Clowns are bred by a hundred people and the profits have gotten so low that most of the small clownfish breeders are being put out of business by the national growers.  

[davelin315]

Dave, when we shut NADC down we scrapped a large chiller on a temperate system and the coils were pretty darn clean (nothing at all on them).  We did not do any maintenance on the coils and for a large chiller like you're doing, the temperature will drop significantly on the plates (that's why you need to ensure that you have adequate flow to prevent them from freezing, no different than a normal HVAC unit).

 

The lines themselves, though, that could present a problem.  The chiller will chill the water to the temperature you want it to be chilled to, but I'm unclear on whether the lack of growth in a chiller line is because of the cold water or because of what it's made of.  That said, I do know that life will grow in the chiller lines as you get further away so a back flush valve would be a good idea for the lines.

[dave w]

Many thanks for that information Dave.  I think it will be easy to flush a chiller with freshwater to remove biofilm, but I fear the shellfish/bivalves.  If a mussel, barnacle or sponge attaches in that high flow water then they will grow and multiply until the flow is blocked.  Freshwater will kill the organisms but probably vinegar, chlorox or muratic acid would be needed to dissolve barnacles.  I do a lot of copepod collecting in the Chesapeake, so barnacles are a very real danger to my system.

 

Last year I thought I'd isolated the perfect copepod.  It was the right size, shape and swimming motion.  I put a bunch of them in beakers and waited to see them reproduce.  A few weeks later barnacle shells started growing on the vessel walls.  I hit my forehead with my and hand and wondered "how did those barnacle larvae get in there?"  As it turns out, my perfect copepod wasn't a copepod at all!

Edited July 17, 2014 by dave w

[davelin315]

Many thanks for that information Dave.  I think it will be easy to flush a chiller with freshwater to remove biofilm, but I fear the shellfish/bivalves.  If a mussel, barnacle or sponge attaches in that high flow water then they will grow and multiply until the flow is blocked.  Freshwater will kill the organisms but probably vinegar, chlorox or muratic acid would be needed to dissolve barnacles.  I do a lot of copepod collecting in the Chesapeake, so barnacles are a very real danger to my system.

 

Last year I thought I'd isolated the perfect copepod.  It was the right size, shape and swimming motion.  I put a bunch of them in beakers and waited to see them reproduce.  A few weeks later barnacle shells started growing on the vessel walls.  I hit my forehead with my and hand and wondered "how did those barnacle larvae get in there?"  As it turns out, my perfect copepod wasn't a copepod at all!

If it is the right size to be eaten, then perhaps barnacles are what you should be cultivating!

[ctenophore]

If you are going to run system water in the ground loop, I would plumb it so you can isolate it and clear it in the winter. Then every few years you can easily run some muriatic through it to clean it.

 

How are you going to heat the system in the winter?

[dave w]

If you are going to run system water in the ground loop, I would plumb it so you can isolate it and clear it in the winter. Then every few years you can easily run some muriatic through it to clean it.

 

How are you going to heat the system in the winter?

Good point Justin.  The ground loop should be plumbed to take freshwater, chlorinated water or an acid like muriatic.  I talked to a phyto guy over the weekend who tried to talk me out of running algae through the ground loops and I might be changing my mind.

 

As for winter heating, the ground loops come into the greenhouse and connect to a pex loop, but I need to add a number of cpvc loops below the floor also.  My plan in winter is to close off the geothermal loops, install a circulating pump and use one or both the house water heaters to circulate hot water through the loops inside the greenhouse.  I'm not sure if a two 1500 watt water heaters are enough.  Another way of heating the system in the winter is to put several thousand watts of light on the algae cultures and the algae scrubbing area at night.  They will do triple duty, giving reverse daylight photosynthesis on the macro algae, higher phyto production, and also warm the room.  It's likely that I will have to use both those methods, several more, plus put a layer of polycarbonate under the roof beams so the double glazing creates an 8" air sandwich to help insulate. 

[dave w]

The MBI breeders workshop in Michigan was very exciting.  One of the speakers there does a lot of breeding and pointed me in the direction of the medium sized angelfish, like regal and navarchus, and the deep water anthias.  Regal and navarchus have been two of my favorites forever.  Most people don't try to breed them because of space limitations, but I think I might find room.  A lot of the larger angels have very short larval periods, like only a month or so.  I'll keep working to get some more aquarium space ready for them.

[dante411x]

You know Dave, if you keep these"I need to make a bigger tank" comments, I'll start replying with houses for sale advertisements that have a private lagoon attached. That might satisfy you. Maybe. I'm not sure what the status on buying the Indian Ocean is, but if it ever goes up for sale, I'll let you know.

[DuffyGeos]

I love all three!

[BowieReefer84]

Is this endeavor profit seeking or simply self gratification?

 

Either way, it's stellar and I have enjoyed this thread very much.  I don't comment much, since it's well beyond my knowledge base. 

[wangspeed]

You should sell all us local mandarin and wrasse lovers harpacticoid copepods at a discount

[dave w]

You know Dave, if you keep these"I need to make a bigger tank" comments, I'll start replying with houses for sale advertisements that have a private lagoon attached. That might satisfy you. Maybe. I'm not sure what the status on buying the Indian Ocean is, but if it ever goes up for sale, I'll let you know.

Very funny, I know it must sound weird that I keep building bigger.  If I ever get the money, I'll be satisfied with one tiny little corner of Fiji.

[dave w]

Is this endeavor profit seeking or simply self gratification?

 

Either way, it's stellar and I have enjoyed this thread very much.  I don't comment much, since it's well beyond my knowledge base. 

It started with the simple plan to have big tank under full sun that wouldn't stink up the house (or my wife would put her foot down).  Breeding angels was always going to be the icing on the cake, more of a dream than a realistic plan.  But now that angel breeding is looking practical the greenhouse has morphed into a plan that could generate income.  Because if I'm going to do the hardest fish out there - the pelagic spawners, I might as well do the easier demersal spawners at the same time.  

 

This isn't the best analogy, but it's kind of like saying "if I'm going to try for a Ph.D., I might as well pick up my G.E.D. along the way".  

[dave w]

Warren, I don't mind selling bags of harpacticoids to you.  I really love the mandarins and the ruby dragonets and it would be a lot of fun to have enough harps to keep them fat and breeding.  They've already been bred, so the formula is out there waiting to be followed.

[BowieReefer84]

True. I was thinking that you could go the route of creating a Non-Profit entity, and get some write off's and tax exemptions. Easy enough to create a board out of all the folks on wamas to choose from, and go from there.

 

However, if you want to profit an LLC would obviously be better.

 

Just thinking how you could save a few bucks here or there along the way.

[DuffyGeos]

True. I was thinking that you could go the route of creating a Non-Profit entity, and get some write off's and tax exemptions. Easy enough to create a board out of all the folks on wamas to choose from, and go from there.

 

However, if you want to profit an LLC would obviously be better.

 

Just thinking how you could save a few bucks here or there along the way.

+1 Starting a company is probably a great idea on your scale. The only issue is that you have done a lot of the build out before the company was "officially" started, but I 'm not telling.  You don't need to operate the company at a profit (look at all the tech companies) but you will be able to get a lot of tax breaks. You do have an advantage since  " Dave's Angel Breeding" program is not located in your house, and it sounds like you might have enough land to make it work. You will need to make sure that what you do works for Fairfax County, they are starting to be tough on home run businesses. Definitely check with a lawyer before you open up the Fairfax County "can of worms" with permits, licensing, zoning.

[BowieReefer84]

Example:  That trip you just took could have been a "business trip!" 

[DuffyGeos]

Example:  That trip you just took could have been a "business trip!" 

Yup! It was a total write off. Airfare, meals, lodging, class fees, etc.

[dave w]

I agree with both of you, Duffygeos and Bowiereefer84.  But there is a huge leap between growing a few larvae until they color up and having a successful fish business.  99% of the former can't do the latter.  I actually see biology being easier than marketing, if I throw a million copepods/day at a batch of larvae the fish are bound to live.  But small growers can't market.  If the basement propagator sells a few rare fish on ebay the wholesalers won't deal with him, and if he grows a thousand angels he can only sell to the wholesalers.  A fish grower would probably need at least 20 popular species (excluding clowns and dottybacks) to appeal to the LFS.

 

That's a leap that nobody has succeeded at.  The only two companies that do that probably sell 20,000 clowns a month and are in a price war with each other.  But there's nothing to say that a few fish can't pay for my salt and food, just like many people do with frags.

Edited July 23, 2014 by dave w

[DuffyGeos]

I agree with both of you, Duffygeos and Bowiereefer84.  But there is a huge leap between growing a few larvae until they color up and having a successful fish business.  99% of the former can't do the latter.  I actually see biology being easier than marketing, if I throw a million copepods/day at a batch of larvae the fish are bound to live.  But small growers can't market.  If the basement propagator sells a few rare fish on ebay the wholesalers won't deal with him, and if he grows a thousand angels he can only sell to the wholesalers.  A fish grower would probably need at least 20 popular species (excluding clowns and dottybacks) to appeal to the LFS.

 

That's a leap that nobody has succeeded at.  The only two companies that do that probably sell 20,000 clowns a month and are in a price war with each other.  But there's nothing to say that a few fish can't pay for my salt and food, just like many people do with frags.

 

In that vein, does anyone think that queen angels would breed in a 1100 gallon tank that was 4' high, 3.5' front to back and 13' long?  I'd love to give them a try.

I don't think Bowiereefer84 & I are thinking you are going to make a living out of it. If you have a side company, you can use it to claim excepted write-offs. You have start up expenses, operating expenses, advertising expenses, etc. You can operate at a loss, you don't need to compete with the big boys. Marketing only needs to be word of mouth and online.

[DaveS]

I agree with both of you, Duffygeos and Bowiereefer84.  But there is a huge leap between growing a few larvae until they color up and having a successful fish business.  99% of the former can't do the latter.  I actually see biology being easier than marketing, if I throw a million copepods/day at a batch of larvae the fish are bound to live.  But small growers can't market.  If the basement propagator sells a few rare fish on ebay the wholesalers won't deal with him, and if he grows a thousand angels he can only sell to the wholesalers.  A fish grower would probably need at least 20 popular species (excluding clowns and dottybacks) to appeal to the LFS.

 

That's a leap that nobody has succeeded at.  The only two companies that do that probably sell 20,000 clowns a month and are in a price war with each other.  But there's nothing to say that a few fish can't pay for my salt and food, just like many people do with frags.

 

 

I don't think Bowiereefer84 & I are thinking you are going to make a living out of it. If you have a side company, you can use it to claim excepted write-offs. You have start up expenses, operating expenses, advertising expenses, etc. You can operate at a loss, you don't need to compete with the big boys. Marketing only needs to be word of mouth and online.

 

There is definitely some merit into incorporating for the tax write offs.  It doesn't even need to be a non-profit, just a regular LLC will work and it's much simpler to make happen.  A couple of easy forms and $50 a year in registration fees.  You could do it now and just write off future expenses.  You can also write off depreciation on part of your home based on square footage ratio.  There are plenty of side businesses where people still have a full time job because the side business doesn't make much of a profit.  These businesses are completely legitimate and allow deduction of business expenses.  Typical example- Make $50k at a FT job, spend $2k in fish expenses.  At the end of the year, you are only paying taxes on $48k of income so you probably will get a bit of a refund from your FT job's withholding.

 

Now lots of people try this so the IRS does pay attention.  You need to avoid being declared a hobby by them and seen as a legitimate business.  To do this, you need to book revenue.  Maybe not day one but at some point (fairly early) you need to.  You also need to eventually show a profit.  Look at it from the IRS's view point.  How many real businesses don't have a single customer paying a single penny for 2 years?  How many people would keep a business that has a loss year after year.  With those results, a business person would give up but a hobbyist continues.  I'm not offering tax advice but I've been told by my accountants that profitability in 3 out of 5 years is generally reasonable enough to pass the profit test.

 

Now profitability is something the business owner can control not only through increased revenue but also reduced (claimed) expenses.  Since you aren't claiming any expenses at all right now, that means you can only improve your situation with claiming some/all expenses.  The revenue part is where you would need to figure something out.  Maybe offer tours of the greenhouse for $1!

[DuffyGeos]

There is definitely some merit into incorporating for the tax write offs.  It doesn't even need to be a non-profit, just a regular LLC will work and it's much simpler to make happen.  A couple of easy forms and $50 a year in registration fees.  You could do it now and just write off future expenses.  You can also write off depreciation on part of your home based on square footage ratio.  There are plenty of side businesses where people still have a full time job because the side business doesn't make much of a profit.  These businesses are completely legitimate and allow deduction of business expenses.  Typical example- Make $50k at a FT job, spend $2k in fish expenses.  At the end of the year, you are only paying taxes on $48k of income so you probably will get a bit of a refund from your FT job's withholding.

 

Now lots of people try this so the IRS does pay attention.  You need to avoid being declared a hobby by them and seen as a legitimate business.  To do this, you need to book revenue.  Maybe not day one but at some point (fairly early) you need to.  You also need to eventually show a profit.  Look at it from the IRS's view point.  How many real businesses don't have a single customer paying a single penny for 2 years?  How many people would keep a business that has a loss year after year.  With those results, a business person would give up but a hobbyist continues.  I'm not offering tax advice but I've been told by my accountants that profitability in 3 out of 5 years is generally reasonable enough to pass the profit test.

 

Now profitability is something the business owner can control not only through increased revenue but also reduced (claimed) expenses.  Since you aren't claiming any expenses at all right now, that means you can only improve your situation with claiming some/all expenses.  The revenue part is where you would need to figure something out.  Maybe offer tours of the greenhouse for $1!

+1  Just make sure you do everything by the book.

 

I would charge $5.00 for the tour. Provide Iced Tea

Edited July 23, 2014 by DuffyGeos