Dave W's 3000 gal plankton/reef tank

[Coral Hind]

I think they would be safe once cleaned. I use oxalic acid at work to remove iron oxide stains from delicate things. Hydrochloric acid is stronger and would work too. Since the totes are probably not porous it should be easy to clean. After a few days soaking with acid I would rinse a few times. Adding baking soda to a rinse would remove any acid left.

[dave w]

Coral Hind, thanks for the info.  I won't be ready for totes for another couple of months but I will try the treatment you recommend.  I'm guessing (probably wrongly) that the chemical formula for iron oxide is Fe O?  If so, then would an oxidant work as well as an acid?  I got a C in chemistry for good reason, because I have a hard time figuring this stuff out.  I don't know where to get hydrochloric acid but I do know where to get muriatic acid.

[dave w]

I've posted my plan to use thin fiberglass sleeves with underground geothermal water pipes as a water to water heat exchanger.  But that involves pioneering work that always take a lot more time than I anticipated.  So I'm also looking at coiled tubing, either 316 stainless, titanium, or titanium/palladium.  Does anyone know why 316 stainless would not work as well as titanium if it were immersed in 30 ppt saltwater while cold freshwater was circulated through it?  

 

Thanks in advance.

[Coral Hind]

I think the 316 would work fine as long as the outer surface isn't damaged. The ends of the tubes and any place where the "passive" surface is cut will rust unless treated.

 

Have you priced up the titanium/palladium tubing? I bet that is big dollar.

[dave w]

I got a price on titanium.  A 400,000 BTU/hr unit looks like $2,000, but I need to check the shipping cost into Baltimore.  I will also price titanium/palladium as an option, those manufacturers haven't gotten back to me yet.  I don't need nearly 400,000 BTU/hr capacity, probably 200,000 BTU/hour is plenty, but I need to anticipate 105F degrees in August and I'd rather lose a little money on overcapacity than a lot of money on dead fish.  I haven't measured the greenhouse temps on a sunny afternoon, but if the doors were left closed I can hardly stand the temperature.  I'd guess it is 120F or so.  I have to go outside into the 95F sun to cool down.

Edited June 2, 2014 by dave w

[DuffyGeos]

Why don't you install an automatic attic exhaust vent that will open and a fan will force the hot air out when it reaches a certain temp. Some of them have louvers so when they are closed they don't let cold air in when it is Winter.

[dave w]

An automatic vent is a good idea, I'll look into it.  They even make a special vent for greenhouses that opens and closes automatically depending on temperature.  I think they use some type of special fluid in the piston.  I've been meaning to get one but have had too much on my plate.  However even with shade cloth, venting and every other feature, August in a greenhouse will still require some massive water cooling.  I'll try every other measure, but at some point I will have to throw equipment at the issue.

[dave w]

I'm leaning toward buying two smaller heat exchangers instead of a large one.  That way one can be plumbed to the geothermal cooling system while at peak demand (August) the other can run off large quantities of cold well water from the house.

 

Do titanium plate heat exchangers ever clog up with sponges or other organic growth from the tank water that circulates through it?  Those plates are not very far apart.  If so, how do you clean it?  Maybe circulate fresh water or an acid solution through it after removing it from the tank plumbing?

 

All the fiberglass areas on the tank have been painted with epoxy paint but I still see some pinholes in fiberglass cloth here and there.  Given another day or two of more painting and it should be time to fill the tank with fresh water.

[dave w]

OK, the last of three coats of epoxy paint went on yesterday and that needs a day to out-gas.  So tomorrow, Friday, I'll put the hose in and fill the tank up about a foot to see if there are any leaks or if there is any bow in the beam that holds the front glass.  Then I'll slowly fill the tank with freshwater. 

 

Does anyone know how to prevent mosquitos?  A couple years ago I filled the sumps with water and mosquitos were everywhere.  Would 100 pounds of softener salt or 10 pounds of baking soda create an ion ratio that would kill them?  I could probably put a hundred feeder guppies or goldfish in there too to eat wigglers.

 

Later I'm thinking of breaking in the tank with phyto to absorb trace toxins, then brine shrimp to eat the phyto.  I don't have the capacity to RO 4,000 gallons of water and I'll only have fish in there for quite a while before the inverts go in, so water quality doesn't need to be the best.  

[ctenophore]

Use BT pellets (mosquito dunks).  Non toxic; it's a type of bacteria that kills the larvae only.

[Cliff Puckstable]

Hey, no more posting until you upload some pictures.

[surf&turf]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^+1^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

[dave w]

OK, Cliff and surf&turf, I'll post a pic tomorrow.  Rather than my daughter in a swimsuit for a mermaid pic, I thought I'd put a kid in one corner with a wiffle bat, and kids with baseball gloves in the other 3 corners for first, second and third base, with me in the middle of the room pitching.  Problem is, there's no way to photograph more than 3 of us at the same time.   So maybe it's my three kids in the big part of the tank.

 

Justin, thanks for the BT recommendation, I thought that only worked for caterpillars, I learn something new every day.  

[smallreef]

tripod...with remote...just sayin,lol

cant wait to see the progress!

[Incredible Corals]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^+1^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

+2

[DuffyGeos]

+3.......do I have to go take my own pics? It is in his backyard not his house.

[dave w]

I misplaced my cell phone today so I couldn't take pics.  I put 8" of water in the tank to see if there are any leaks and will let it sit overnight.  I'll probably find my phone tomorrow.  

 

I'm also keeping a close eye on the frame around the 9' piece of glass.  If 37" of water pressure makes the frame bow outward it will stress the glass, and even though non-tempered 3/4" glass is flexible I won't push it past a half inch or so.  It hasn't bowed yet with 8" of water, but there's another 29" to go.  Keeping my fingers crossed.  I'll probably add a foot of water a day and keep an eye on things.

[dave w]

I took pics yesterday with my cell phone and sent them to a couple of people, but the pics weren't received.  So there is probably something wrong with a password or something that I'm too simple to fix.  I've got 26" of water in the tank now and the longest beam has only deflected (bent) 1/64th of an inch.  I don't think it will bow too much with the last 10" of water so I think I will not need a center brace.  

 

No leaks so far.  Pics to come whenever I figure out how to send them.  I'm already starting to dream about which pairs of fish I should be getting.

[Cliff Puckstable]

http://wamas.org/forums/topic/51621-how-to-set-up-a-wamas-gallery-post-a-picture-embed-a-video/?do=findComment&comment=580588

[dave w]

An idea occurred to me this morning.  Why can't I run aquarium water through the geothermal cooling lines directly?  One day I'll have sponges or bivalves get accidentally introduced to the system which will grow in the lines, but for the first year I'll just have fish.  As long as barnacle larvae don't accidentally come in with the copepods (easier said than done), the lines should stay clean.  If they do get flow restricted by organics, a loop of chlorinated fresh water may flush them out.  If they get restricted by an organism with a calcium carbonate shell, looping vinegar might dissolve it.  

 

I know this isn't an ideal solution, in fact it's probably a bad idea, but it's taking longer than I thought to figure out the water chillers from China.  The plate heat exchangers will have the same problems as  the geothermal lines, organics will grow on them to reduce efficiency and they'll need to be taken apart and cleaned.  How do titanium chillers with freon as coolant avoid the fouling problem?

[Origami]

Like you said, Dave, if you get sponges or bivalves growing in the line (and why wouldn't they - you'll have a nice nutrient-enriched flow in there), or sedimentation - including non-carbonate sedimentation - that hardens, it could cause blockage that you'll have to clean out. If the lines are long, you'll have a real problem to deal with.

[dave w]

I see your point Tom, but I don't hear of people cleaning their titanium chillers every year or even every 5 years.  Your point about non-carbonate sedimentation is good, I hadn't thought about that.  

[Origami]

The inside of a chiller may get too cold for the life to take up residence. I don't know.

[dave w]

You may be right. I've never had a chiller to measure water temperature at the outlet.  But if it only drops water by 10F or so many organisms could live there.  The actual titanium plates would be colder than the outlet water and that would work against the biofilm.

[Origami]

You may be right. I've never had a chiller to measure water temperature at the outlet.  But if it only drops water by 10F or so many organisms could live there.  The actual titanium plates would be colder than the outlet water and that would work against the biofilm.

That's what I'm thinking. The chilling in a chiller is probably cycled to drive the average temperature of the tank down to the desired point. But, the instantaneous temperature on the plates might cover a wider range that would discourage film formation. Another possibility is that it could also be that there's a charge on the metal that discourages biofilm formation. Again, just a guess. The temperature in your geothermal approach would probably be very stable and may encourage rather than discourage growth. It's too bad that you didn't have a test loop running these last few years, huh? That would have been a decent experiment.