5-reasons-not-to-buy-japanese-corals

[L8 2 RISE]

More from Eric Michael:

 

"Hi Sam,

 

Stony corals (Scleractinia) are illegal to export from Japan for the ornamental fish & coral trade. This means SPS, LPS, and in some cases soft corals. For Soft corals, the deciding factor is often the substrate which they are attached to.

 

For example, zoanthids on liverock could be considered illegal because of the rock itself, or the small stony corals living on it. However, based on my understanding from friends in Japan, a head of Sarcophyton that lacks substrate should technically be legal--albeit still difficult to export.

 

Additionally, the smuggling of corals to a neighboring country (most frequently Hong Kong) does not magically make the corals 'legal' as some people has assumed.

 

Your best sources for this information is Japan's METI. The basis for this post stems from multiple discussions with folks in the industry both in the U.S. and in Japan. USFW Inspectors in LAX are aware of the issue. HTH."

 

And an informative reply to the article from jmaneyapanda

 

"To elaborate a little more, USFWS follows very specific guidelines when inspecting and issuing permits for imports. As stonay corals are on CITES appendix II, there MUST be appropriate documentation from USFWS as well as the nation of export, as well as documentation from the country of origin, as needed. Without it, USFWS wont allow the import. In this case, if the corals were labelled from Japan (on import documents, etc), then there would need to be a CITES permit from the Japanese wildlife enforcement for the import, depite what has been discussed with the importer and USFWS. And, as Eric stated, this is what makes smuggled corals just as atrocious, and improper (and likely for confiscation by USFWS) as others illegally collected and/or imported."

[Saltwaterworx]

I see it doesn't take much to get you guys excited. Mr. Coral: Saltwaterworx says: excellent marketing!

[mrcoral.com]

I see it doesn't take much to get you guys excited. Mr. Coral: Saltwaterworx says: excellent marketing!

 

 

LOL I do have a Marketing and business degree from Maryland. Thanks guys business has been crazy!!

[basser9]

What i dont understand glassbox states [sTONY] corals ....

 

How can anybody reading this article come away thinking everything out of japanese

waters is off limit

 

Buyer beware any coral/zoo/chalice you want and its price is high because somebody

says its an coral from TYREE or a zoo from japan or a sps from aust make them prove it .....

 

Really all glassbox was pointing out is that point....AND DONT BUY SPS FROM JAPAN

 

If sonny will not show you his paperwork then you know whats going on...

 

HAS anybody tried and sonny would not....???????

[lanman]

If you were to find Sonny's paperwork, it would probably just say 'Japanese Zoanthids' - shipped from California. Where the importer/trans-shipper got it, and what it was called when they got it ('Fiji zoanthids - to be relabeled as Japanese')... you would have to ask them.

 

bob

[Origami]

What i dont understand glassbox states [sTONY] corals ....

 

How can anybody reading this article come away thinking everything out of japanese

waters is off limit

 

I'll tell you why. Glassbox-designs changed their page once Sam (our own Sam!) pointed out their error based on the discussion that's been going on here. Their original page is still posted on the MASNA site: http://www.masna.org/IntheNews/tabid/400/ID/925/5-Reasons-NOT-to-Buy-Japanese-Corals.aspx.

 

I've provided a snapshot here of the original page (saved at MASNA.org) and the REVISED Glass-Box page so it's preserved.

 

Before:

 

 

 

After:

 

 

 

Isn't it great how the Internet can morph right before your eyes? Isn't it great how this discussion has led to a change in somebody's misinformation? Way to go, Sam!

 

Did people get spun up about unverified "news?" Yes. Just a reminder not to be too trusting about anything you read on the Internet.

[Saltwaterworx]

So, will people go bananas and buy all of my "japanese" corals if I get some, or has that boat sailed. Just asking.

[mrcoral.com]

LOL!! Bob is 100% correct. If anyone wants to see the invoice come on in!!! Make sure you call before you make the trip so I can make sure I'm here.

[Saltwaterworx]

MrCoral: make sure they bring their badges also!

[Pacific East Aquaculture]

My comments are not directed at any one vendor or person. I have no interest in bashing or commenting on any vendor's business practices, ethical, legal, or not.

 

I do import direct, have an import license, have a facility licensed and inspected by the state and federal authorities, and do deal with CITES issues daily (just so you know I have some direct knowledge and some risk legally--so you know where I am coming from).

 

Just one small aspect of this I want to address.

 

 

I can tell you that to say there are other more important issues for federal officials to be concerned about is certainly factual. However, there are federal inspectors and other officials that deal with this very issue and they very much think it is important to them and take their jobs seriously. The US Fish and Wildlife Service regulates the importation/inspection of live animal and coral shipments. Take it as a fact that they are aware of these issues and monitor them including online forums (please, I am not trying to make everyone think big brother is watching your every move, but they do monitor). Without getting into the ethics, legality, etc. of this issue, I want everyone to be aware that US F&W is looking for reasons to shut down the industry, they are watching and acculumating info, and taking these issues and the blatant disregard and flaunting of trade in illegal corals as a black mark on us all in the hobby/industry. The only point I wish to make at this time is that this hobby would cease to exist if we at this point in time try to rely exclusively on tank-raised corals, fish, live rock, etc.--we still need access to wild collected animals. So, I think everyone should be a little more cautious as to their use of terms and discussion of the issues. I include myself and everyone participating in this debate. Take my comments for what you will, some may say paranoid, but I know of what I speak. Marketing and creating a buzz to sell is all good, we all do it, but blatant use of terminology such as so-called Japanese corals will draw more scrutiny at an industry already under the magifying glass from a federal government agency and also environmental groups. There have been recent efforts at shutting us down and these will continue and we do not as a community as a whole need to give more rope to hang ourselves. The casual brushing off of potentially illegal importation of live animals is serious business to some folks. I am not presenting myself as some higher moral authority here, just pointing out something we all should be aware of and act appropriately.

[mrcoral.com]

I know what a joke!! Another Mrcoral Bashing goes down the drain. Thanks for the Huge Turnout today it was the big topic today!!

[mrcoral.com]

Thanks Dr.Mac good points you make.

[L8 2 RISE]

I know what a joke!! Another Mrcoral Bashing goes down the drain. Thanks for the Huge Turnout today it was the big topic today!!

 

Do you mind? Do you think there would be this much bashing of your business if the majority of people thought what you were doing was all amazing and awesome? I know I started all this by what I posted on your forum and for that I honestly can't say I'm sorry because I was only looking for information, however all I've seen you do is act as the peanut gallery, throwing comments every which way.

 

On another note, I would greatly appreciate a reply to my post on your forum (which you for some reason felt necessary to remove and then to send a sour pm). You, on your forum, said that you could speak to your supplier to see what they have to say. As I said above, I would greatly appreciate a reply. I did not start this to begin some flame war, I started it because I truthfully wanted an explanation as to what was going on. I suspected it was started at or before the supplier, but, as I said, I was only interested. You will notice that I have not posted a SINGLE post on this topic that questioned you or your "japanese" corals, all I've asked for is more information, and I'd appreciate it.

 

Thanks Dr.Mac good points you make.

 

+1, REALLY appreciate this info!

[sdah0414]

[Noobalicious]

Do you mind? Do you think there would be this much bashing of your business if the majority of people thought what you were doing was all amazing and awesome? I know I started all this by what I posted on your forum and for that I honestly can't say I'm sorry because I was only looking for information, however all I've seen you do is act as the peanut gallery, throwing comments every which way.

 

 

Don't speak for the rest of us. There are many in the club that like his store very much.

 

And it only takes a couple people to bash, not a majority.

 

If you don't like his business, then don't buy from him...simple. Although some people have a hard time grasping that concept.

 

 

Is there a specific problem with livestock that you have purchased from him, then post it in the vendor experience forum. If you have no experience with purchasing from him, then you have no business posting what quality of store he has.

[mrcoral.com]

As I stated if you would like to see paperwork come on in. Maybe you can do a report on it for school. What grade are you in again?

[mrcoral.com]

He loves my business!! He comes in for the Free frags all the time. Even comes in for the A's on his report card.

[mrcoral.com]

Going to my sons Little league game. I will be back around 10 to defend myself!!

[L8 2 RISE]

Lol, I'll resist dropping to your level and just say this, I couldn't care less what you have to say at this point, I've heard what little input you have and now I'm interested in what information your supplier has (that you said you would be happy to get). Now if you can't be bothered to put any effort in, please pm me his/her e-mail or phone number.

 

And for the record, I have been to his store, twice to be exact, and the last time was a looong time ago. I have never brought In my report card, thanks for making stuff up though, and I have gotten all of 7 frags from you and one fish. I paid for 5 of those frags as well as the fish and have receipts to prove it (pulled them out just for you).

[sdah0414]

It was shown that not all corals from Japan are illegal. What else do you want? It seems like the initial post has been satisfied. Can we end this crap and close this thread now?

[Novi]

Thanks for the stuff today Sonny! That Ultra Wells I bought is crazy under Atinics!!!!

Lovin the Zoos also!

 

Whoever missed out on this because they didnt think it was "ethical", sory about your luck ...lol

[gtipower]

I've been away from WAMAS for awhile even though I'm a paid member for this exact reason. Debates/arguments that somehow end up being driven and continued by personal bias. I love the Colonel Sanders and Gen. Tso's references though.

 

The self-righteous hobbyists out there are also hilarious to listen to. How bout this. If you're so concerned about corals and its survival, and you're not really in this hobby for your own pleasure, tear down your tanks and take that money you spend every month in this hobby and donate it to the conservation groups. And WAMAS mods, I have spoken to many hobbyists over the years, and many do not join or participate in local clubs for this very reason. People who feel they need to express their moral and ethical beliefs in a place where it is not desired. And while there is free speech, it drives people away from fully participating in the club. We want to see pics of great setups, great coral and talk about best ways of culturing our valuble hobby. Not a bimonthly bashing of a LFS that has brought great coral to our area and then driving a schism between members over this issue.

 

L82Rise: why would ANYONE pm you their supplier's email?? You think some supplier is gonna care about a kid questioning their business? You wanna call the tobacco supplier of Marlboro as well and tell them they are causing cancer in their consumers?? You don't want to stoop to his level yet you had to quote how infrequent you went to his business and what you purchased from there. So you paid for 5 of the 7 corals? So you even got 2 free ones as well?? Man what a ripoff And you have receipts from that long ago? Since I am a frequent customer of Mr.Coral, I know they don't give receipts unless you pay with credit card, and that receipt merely states your total, nothing about what you purchased.

 

Honestly though, I've noticed that business does a little better for Mr.Coral when these issues come up because members end up saying whats going on and check out his store/website/links. So those that TRY to hurt his business actually end up making it better.

 

Bottome line, you think Mr.Coral or ANY LFS would risk selling illegal corals and posting it online on most major forums?? I don't think drug dealers post what they are selling on the internet for all to see. And if he is naming these things Japanese to deceive us and "raise" the prices, he wouldn't be selling them in such a cheap pack (SHIPPING INCLUDED no less).

[L8 2 RISE]

I've been away from WAMAS for awhile even though I'm a paid member for this exact reason. Debates/arguments that somehow end up being driven and continued by personal bias. I love the Colonel Sanders and Gen. Tso's references though.

 

The self-righteous hobbyists out there are also hilarious to listen to. How bout this. If you're so concerned about corals and its survival, and you're not really in this hobby for your own pleasure, tear down your tanks and take that money you spend every month in this hobby and donate it to the conservation groups. And WAMAS mods, I have spoken to many hobbyists over the years, and many do not join or participate in local clubs for this very reason. People who feel they need to express their moral and ethical beliefs in a place where it is not desired. And while there is free speech, it drives people away from fully participating in the club. We want to see pics of great setups, great coral and talk about best ways of culturing our valuble hobby. Not a bimonthly bashing of a LFS that has brought great coral to our area and then driving a schism between members over this issue.

 

L82Rise: why would ANYONE pm you their supplier's email?? You think some supplier is gonna care about a kid questioning their business? You wanna call the tobacco supplier of Marlboro as well and tell them they are causing cancer in their consumers?? You don't want to stoop to his level yet you had to quote how infrequent you went to his business and what you purchased from there. So you paid for 5 of the 7 corals? So you even got 2 free ones as well?? Man what a ripoff And you have receipts from that long ago? Since I am a frequent customer of Mr.Coral, I know they don't give receipts unless you pay with credit card, and that receipt merely states your total, nothing about what you purchased.

 

Honestly though, I've noticed that business does a little better for Mr.Coral when these issues come up because members end up saying whats going on and check out his store/website/links. So those that TRY to hurt his business actually end up making it better.

 

Bottome line, you think Mr.Coral or ANY LFS would risk selling illegal corals and posting it online on most major forums?? I don't think drug dealers post what they are selling on the internet for all to see. And if he is naming these things Japanese to deceive us and "raise" the prices, he wouldn't be selling them in such a cheap pack (SHIPPING INCLUDED no less).

 

 

I use Quicken (so no, I don't have the receipts, but I have the records). I never said it was a rip off, all my point was to clarify that Sonny was going out of his way to exaggerate. Maybe I need to re-clarify I understand, at this point, that some Japanese corals are legal, and I have no problem accepting that, I'm more curious as to how the whole process works TBH. We've established that some of the coral is legal for importation, and we've also established that some is getting here "legally" in a round about way, so how is all of this coral getting into the country? When I started looking into this, the best I could determine was that Japan simply WOULD NOT export corals, now we've found that that's not necessarily true. I'm trying to find the missing link. As for Mr. Coral, I could care less which vendor it was that was going on about all of his Japanese stuff, in this case it just so happens to be Sonny as opposed to BRK, F&F, etc. I'll say again that from the start I've gone into this through curiosity's sake, not through malice. If it were BRK or F&F, I'd ask the very same questions, the difference is that I think it's safe to say they'd do their best to answer those questions as opposed to flame people.

 

Also, no, I don't expect LFS's and what not to go out and sell illegal coral or try to sell it, at least not on purpose, but as this article and the resultant searches of members on the forum to try to find information proved, very few people even knew of the ban on any coral from japan and there's even less information out there. Mr. Coral even showed that he didn't know much/ anything about it until now and was just going off of what his supplier said.

Edited May 2, 2010 by L8 2 RISE

[johnnybv]

I can tell you that you have to jump through quite a few hoops to import koi these days! With devastating disease like SVC and KHV (koi herpes), Carp of any kind including food and ornamental must have papers that the facility they are coming from has been tested to be free of these diseases, and regular tests are required. It was much easier to bring in a few Gem tangs a couple of years ago than koi!

John

[thewire]

Wow..this has morphed into Mr Coral bashing. I was merely posting about why I see a lot Japanese corals for sale online when it's illegal..not just Mr Coral himself but other online retailers.

 

 

However one funny note, I received an email about free Japanese micro from Mr Coral. Is Micro is part of faviina family and they are hard coral?

 

p/s I also posted in CMAS but I saw the original post from N-R. I figured WAMAS is more active forum.

 

Here is another interesting post from someone in N-R

Here is an example of a coral tht COULD be collected in Japan but it is also available in other areas so the likely hood of it being reshipped is less likely than it just being collected in malaysia and shipped then sold as Japanese.

 

http://www.unep-wcmc.org/isdb/CITES/Taxono...p;tabname=names

 

I guess I never really expected move vendors to tell the truth (LFS or wholesaler) they are all out to make a buck and I can't blame them for that. Truely illegal activity or totally false advertising however I believe crosses a bit of a line.

 

Personally based on the information I can find zoanthids dont occure in truely deep water. They are mid to shallow corals (mainly shallow). The likely hood of then being Japanese is slim.

 

Some additional reading

http://www.cites.org/

read that if your interested in what is protected and what shipping practices are allowed.

 

Glass box seemed to have a whole series on this .. here is another for your vviewing..

http://glassbox-design.com/2009/illegal-an...als-yay-or-nay/

Edited May 2, 2010 by thewire