A sad day in my tank.....

[Reefer_Madness]

Most of the time we use WAMAS to brag about our tanks and talk about our successes.  I on the other hand talk more about my failures than my successes.  This is a huge failure that is going on right now....

 

So I had a post online that I had a fish looking bad.  It was a One spot Foxface.  Well, I am ashamed to say that I am in the middle of a tank fish apocalypse because of stupid mistakes I made.  Over the last two days I have had the following deaths in 2 tanks that are linked together:

 

4  Picasso Clownfish

2 Bicolor Blennies

1 Royal Flasher Wrasse

1 Mandarin

1 Assessor

1 Cherub Angelfish

1 Royal Gramma

 

I am a bad parent and feel horrible.  Most of the fish didn't show signs of sickness.  They just started hiding and then the next day they were floating dead.  Most of these fish I have had over a year.  Over the last couple of weeks I have added a few fish.  Stupid me did not do any kind of QT on these fish.  I just did a Methylene Blue dip on them and acclimated them to my tank.  4 of these fish are the only ones still alive.  All of my "old" fish are dead.

 

Fish that are still alive at the moment:

 

2 Chalk Bass

1 Melanarus Wrasse

1 Christmas Wrasse

1 Foxface (sick as heck in QT tank)

 

I assume they will be dead soon.  I don't know what to do.  Any advice would be appreciated. 

 

FYI - All of my parameters are fine. 

Temp - 78

Salinity - 35

Phosphates - .04 ppm

Nitrates - .1 - .2 ppm

Alk - 145

 

All corals are doing fine as well. 

 

[Rob A]

Sorry for your loss. I went through a similar event a few years ago and was really upset for awhile. Lost a ton of fish to massive ich breakout. I moved the ones that were still living to another tank and started hypo-salinity right away and managed to save a few. 

[Bruleyii]

That sucks man. I dont have any advice, just encouragements. If the worst happens don't let it get you down. Learn and move on.

[davidm]

sorry to hear about your losses.  I hate the risks of adding new fish (which is why my tank is so sparsely inhabited by fish).  my advice - do what you can, take a breather, and if it were me, I would put any changes to the tank on hold for a couple of months.  David

[Reefer_Madness]

I need to take a breather, because right now I feel horrible and my wife is mad at me.  She loved the fish.

[monkiboy]

sorry to hear about the troubles. try to focus on assessing as much accurate and scientific information as possible, learning, and avoiding the issues in the future.

when you say it's wiping out fish in those numbers in two days the most common attributed cause would be velvet. I would act immediately to remove whatever fish remain in the display and get them in treatment as soon as possible.

if you notice any symptoms describe them as soon as you see them. I provide some popular ones below. even when no visible physical symptoms are present often a reefer is able to take note of labored respiration, flashing or head twitching, swimming behavior is atypical or into the current of a return, reduced appetite or perhaps hiding away in dark recesses of rock or caves as velvet can cause specimens to be photophobic.

what do you currently have in your qt medicine cabinet or have immediate access to?

cupramine I think you mentioned in your other thread you were using already and will work against MV but typically has much higher odds of success before such high die offs. nonetheless, if it's the only action plan feasible then roll with it. skip the adjustment period to therapeutic levels as time does not allow it.

get all remaining fish into cupramine at therapeutic levels immediately after a freshwater bath of at least five minutes which is just to provide some temporary relief prior to treatment.

if you have it, you can use a broad spectrum antibiotic cocktail like furan-2 and kanamycin to cover your bases avoiding any existing or possible developing secondary bacterial infections. I prefer CP to cupramine so if you have that by chance, I would use that as going to full therapeutic on cupramine can be tough on a fish but be 100% confident of your source on the CP and should be from a script from a vet (filled by a US or Canadian compounding pharmacy with less than 1% filler).

if there is any thing else about the tank, your setup, mechanical, some irresponsible cleaning lady, something else you can think of that would have caused this then let us know but based on the narrative adding the fish and then the time and the total loss thus far, this sounds about right and a solid plan of action at your best option to minimize your losses.

moving forward, be sure to buy your fish from reputable shops that will take the time to ensure you are receiving only the healthiest specimens not fish that just landed that day or even that week. I get how a lower price "sale" every week looks so appealing but no amount of money saved on those purchases will make you feel good right now. I went through it about 10 years ago and I help folks through this all the time unfortunately. at the very least understand the unadvertised huge risk in the "value" pitch of turning fish over as fast as they do as a necessary action of qt/prophylaxis at home.

once you have a handle on the existing population remaining you will keep your display tank fallow for at least 76 days. while the fallow period for MV is shorter, without certainty this is MV and not something else we have to assume the longest fallow period of any lifecycle to be diligent. you will not be adding anything wet to the tank and not have anything reef related that is wet from another reef within 10 feet of the tank (contamination via aerosol).

this stuff always tugs at my reefing heart every time I get a PM to restock a tank after a wipe out or help with treatment but you have a great attitude about it and being open to people helping is awesome. this stuff isn't about pride and we owe the fish the best care we can offer. keep me posted - g'luck!

Edited December 9, 2015 by monkiboy

[WishNewFish]

I know what you are going through since I am and the end of Fallow phase of with my tank.

Although I removed the tankmates into Hospital tank, they started dying as result of dips, agressive tankmates in smaller tank, and my cardinal died because it didnt eat well in hospital tank.

 

Its not fun having multiple tanks setup all around the home feeding them, checking their ammonia parameters and water changes while keeping display fallow for 70+ days.

[RW09903]

I'm sorry to hear about the loss, Ben. My GF hated that I lost pretty much all of her favorites during a tank upgrade also back in March/April. Luckily MACNA was a couple months around the corner which helped me re-stock. I let nature take it's course and did my best feeding with food soaked in garlic and Selcon.

[Reefer_Madness]

Thanks for all the encouragement.  The bad thing is I already do the Selcon soaking of frozen food.  And I feed New Life with garlic.  I thought I was keeping them healthy....

 

The medications I have on hand are:

 

Cupramine

Prazipro

Methylene Blue

 

Marco - Should I combine the Cupramine and an antibiotic in the QT?  I am going to catch all my fish and put them in QT. 
 

[Reefer_Madness]

You appear to be right on the Marine Velvet diagnosis.  My dead fish looked like the pics I see on Google. 

[monkiboy]

Marco - Should I combine the Cupramine and an antibiotic in the QT?

yes. just about any anti-biotic is safe in conjunction with cupramine.

 

don't forget about the freshwater dip. the cp or cupramine in your case will just work fighting again one stage of the lifecycle and that are the dinospores. the trophonts must fall off on their own while the specimen hangs on as the cupramine essentially acts a shield from reinfection. the freshwater dip will not only provide a bit of relief but also reduce the number of trophonts that are feeding on the body & gills.

[cpu933k]

Sorry to hear about this.

 

Here's a good article on velvet and the different treatment options:

 

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-07/sp/feature/index.htm

 

Looks like you have cupramine on hand, so you may want to go with/continue the copper option. Chloroquine phosphate seems like a preferable option, but it's hard to get a hold of. NLS Ick Shied (Powder form - not the food pellets) is supposedly a form of chloroquine phosphate and is easier to get a hold of. But there are some who have questioned its purity and source.

 

Here's some additional info on copper usage:

 

https://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fa165

[YHSublime]

Ben,

 

Here is a thread I started when I had a similar start in my old 150. It was probably the most trying of my reefing battles, but there is some really great information in there.

 

Keep your head up, learn from your trials and tribulations. Btw, I was able to QT my stock in a 55 halfway full, my tank really flourished during the 80 days I was fish free, so there are some upsides! During the process of QT'ing, my grandmother passed away, and I had the added stress of having to leave the country to go to her funeral, as well as train my wife on proper QT procedure, she even had to add the cuppramene, do water changes, feed, etc.

 

Here is where it kind of takes off with the process I chose, everything prior is learning about how to QT, use cupramine, etc.

[dipg]

very sorry to hear about what is going in your tanks. I can only imagine how stressful it might be for you. Everyone has already given you good advice over here. I hope you are able to save the remaining fish. good luck.

[Origami]

Marine velvet's a quick killer and can run through a tank in a hurry. I suspect that's what Marco keyed on. Once you start seeing physical signs, it's almost too late. Copper is probably the treatment of choice, though it can be hard on fish that are already weakened. You may be able to provide a little relief by combining copper and hyposalinity. Hyposalinity won't treat the velvet, but it may take enough extra stress off of the fish to improve it's odds.

 

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-07/sp/feature/index.htm

 

Sorry for the losses and good luck with treatment.

[monkiboy]

You may be able to provide a little relief by combining copper and hyposalinity. Hyposalinity won't treat the velvet, but it may take enough extra stress off of the fish to improve it's odds.

 

tom, has this proven successful for you? At what range and salinity?

 

unless in a pinch (out of salt) I would really encourage him to avoid this scenario of combining the two methods. By doing so he is increasing the coppers efficiency as there are more ions in solution and creates a toxic environment. Most will suggest if combining the two to lower the therapeutic level closer to that of fresh water application if going hypo. The described freshwater baths will take care of the trophonts existing to provide mentioned relief and lower the parasitic count.

Edited December 9, 2015 by monkiboy

[Origami]

That's good to know, Marco. Thanks for the advice. The thought behind lowering the salinity (not too much) wasn't to address trophonts, though. It was to take osmotic pressure off their kidneys and relieve some metabolic stressors to possibly give more energy to recovery. Thoughts?

[Reefer_Madness]

My Foxface is alive and seems to be acting a little better. I put her in the QT 2 days ago with Cupramine. She is still not eating but she did look at food today.

 

Marco - you asked about strange behaviors. A couple of fish did act strange just before their deaths. The clowns, which were always together, separated and stopped eating. My two bicolor blennies, in two different tanks, folded themselves in half and started trying to bite their own tails. All the rest just died.

[monkiboy]

That's good to know, Marco. Thanks for the advice. The thought behind lowering the salinity (not too much) wasn't to address trophonts, though. It was to take osmotic pressure off their kidneys and relieve some metabolic stressors to possibly give more energy to recovery. Thoughts?

yes, you're exactly right sir but further detail should be provided on copper solution as well if going down that route. it's not a bad idea and lowering the temperature along with the specific gravity will reduce the metabolic demands on the sick fish. thing is with copper treatment though, I haven't had much success going below 1.019 for reasons described above in my earlier post so was wondering at what levels and SG you did have success at if suggesting both as it can become toxic quickly and thereby outweighing the advantages of the lowered SG in the first place.

[monkiboy]

ben, have any fish survived the night?

[Reefer_Madness]

Foxface is dead.  Everything else is alive. 

 

Did forget to list one fish.  I have a Purple Dartfish that is alive and looks un phased.

[monkiboy]

that's great news that you fish that made it through the night - really amazing, actually.

so the list of fish alive below is accurate?

2 chalk Bass

1 melanarus Wrasse

1 christmas Wrasse

1 purple dartfish

 

all are in cupramine at what level and with have you started an antibiotic yet? at full salinity and at what temp?

 

good work.

[Reefer_Madness]

Is it possible that I have had this MV in my tank for a long time?  I haven't put fish in my tank for quite a while.  I few months back I introduced two Bali Picasso Clowns that I was very excited about.  They were tank raised and QT'd prior to putting in my tank.  They both died within a couple of days.  They had white dust on them that looked just like the pictures I see for Marine Velvet.  I dosed Prazipro thinking it was Ick.  I lost a McCosker Wrasse and bi-color blenny just after, but the other fish seemed to pull through.  They all had a little white dust on them.  During that period, I was adding corals to my tank.  I did not dip all of the corals I put in my tank.  Is it possible that the MV has been in the tank for a long time and the fish that lived were actually just fighting it off successfully?

 

Marco - You asked about equipment changes or anything like that.  Well, I have one thing that happened.  It could have triggered the outbreak....maybe.  Last week, I was doing some sump cleaning and accidently left my return off over night.  The next morning the temp was 67.  I raised it to 73 immediately then back up to 78 later that day.  Could that temp swing have put enough stress on the fish to trigger the outbreak?  Just a thought. 

[Reefer_Madness]

Yep, your list is correct.

 

Couldn't catch the Chalk Fish.  I stopped feeding them, so tonight they will be hungry......I'll be waiting with a net.  I don't have a Copper test, so haven't tested the water.  I just dosed per the Cupramine bottle's "1st dose" directions.  Going to pickup a test kit tonight.  Havent' got the antibiotic yet.  I'll pick that up tonight as well.

 

Salinity 35

Temp 78

[s2nhle]

Wow, alot of good information here. Thank you for sharing. keep up the good work. Hope the survivor will be ok.