surf&turf February 20, 2014 Share February 20, 2014 Soooooo, I definitely have a few thoughts on this. I too was running with high phosphates and everything was looking great. And then it wasn't. My phosphates got into the .3 /.4 range. Almost all of my sps browned and died. I stopped feeding so much, increased the macro growth in the fuge, got a much better skimmer and increased water changes. Phosphates have dropped to the .13 arena and everything is looking better. SPS are coloring back up and growing. New pieces are doing well. In retrospect my concern is that it is possible that my corals were under stress from high phosphates. After several months (like 8) they just couldn't tolerate them anymore and started to die. Perhaps something else in the tank added stress, perhaps it was the phosphates alone. My point is that there is ample evidence that high phosphates are not good for sps, and some evidence that they can tolerate them. My worry for you is that everything might look fine today, but that does not mean the corals are not under stress from high phosphates. It just might take them a while to show it. And when they show it, the color they choose is brown. I am happy where my phosphates are now, .10 -.13 and I am not aiming for a .05 level. I think they can tolerate higher than close to zero but I do think .227 is getting into the danger zone. Especially if that is where it stays. Dude, just stop feeding so much and get them down to .15. You keep saying you feed too much and you don't see that changing. Well, start seeing that changing. Stop being so stubborn bout feeding and do whats right for everything in your tank. If you are feeding that much, most of it is going to waster anyhow. If you grow some chaeto and reduce your feeding just a little bit, it is totally doable really fast and you don't have to concern yourself with MORE reactors which also bring headaches and side effects. Don't toast your gorgeous tank like I did. +1 Fat fish are not healthy fish. Fish don't eat every day in the ocean so they don't need to in our systems. Like Sharkey say's, cut back on your feeding, keep up with water changes, or one day your SPS are going to go on strike and stop growing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YHSublime February 20, 2014 Author Share February 20, 2014 My worry for you is that everything might look fine today, but that does not mean the corals are not under stress from high phosphates. It just might take them a while to show it. And when they show it, the color they choose is brown. Dude, just stop feeding so much and get them down to .15. You keep saying you feed too much and you don't see that changing. Well, start seeing that changing. Stop being so stubborn bout feeding and do whats right for everything in your tank. If you are feeding that much, most of it is going to waster anyhow. If you grow some chaeto and reduce your feeding just a little bit, it is totally doable really fast and you don't have to concern yourself with MORE reactors which also bring headaches and side effects. Don't toast your gorgeous tank like I did. So you're the reason I got to thinking about all this. I want to believe it can be this good forever, right?! That was the boot I needed, thanks friend! Is your display tank located in an area where you could put a spare tank near it? Because if you can, the water level in the spare tank can be set an inch above your display tank, making it an ATS, refugium and even a zooplankton reactor. It sounds like you have the impression that an ATS is complicated, but I think it is very easy if you set it up right. If it is above the display tank, then zooplankton flows down by gravity rather than being chopped up by the pump. I'd also guess that electricity to the lights for your ATS would be cheaper than salt for large water changes, but I'm not sure. Others who have made the cost comparison can enlighten us both on that. I don't think it's complicated at all! That's similar to what I'm doing with my Mantis display, that will be part of everything else. My water changes really aren't that large on my system, at what averages out to be about 20 gallons a week on about 180 gallons of water. Fat fish are not healthy fish. Fish don't eat every day in the ocean so they don't need to in our systems. Like Sharkey say's, cut back on your feeding, keep up with water changes, or one day your SPS are going to go on strike and stop growing. Roger that. You've got magic sticks as far as I'm concerned, this advice could be likened to Steve Jobs giving me the secret to Apples success! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pizzaguy February 20, 2014 Share February 20, 2014 Isaac, you know the answer and adding 4 more things to maintain isn't it!! I'm no pro by any means but I do know that all my fish are fat and healthy and they get fed at most once a day sometimes every other day. Your tank obviously grows and colors up at a staggering pace but I'm guessing on the path your taking it could reverse just as fast. Just my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott711 February 20, 2014 Share February 20, 2014 what about vinegar or vodka dosing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YHSublime February 20, 2014 Author Share February 20, 2014 Isaac, you know the answer and adding 4 more things to maintain isn't it!! I'm no pro by any means but I do know that all my fish are fat and healthy and they get fed at most once a day sometimes every other day. Your tank obviously grows and colors up at a staggering pace but I'm guessing on the path your taking it could reverse just as fast. Just my opinion. You know, adding 4 more things seems like the easier route. It's OK, I've recently converted, Laura and Frank will have me labeled as King of Conservative Feeding by the time the next meet rolls about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YHSublime February 20, 2014 Author Share February 20, 2014 what about vinegar or vodka dosing? If I could lower my phosphates through water changes and feeding less, it seems logical to me that is the best path, vs playing a balancing act overfeeding and trying to control my levels through dosing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zygote2k February 20, 2014 Share February 20, 2014 the real answer here is to stop chasing magic numbers. if corals are growing and fish aren't dying, then what's the issue? a little cyano patch? I have a tank that has had the same cyano patch for 2 years and it wont go away but the rest of the tank is phenomenal. there are many tanks that have "higher" than nsw phosphate that do plenty fine. cyano can use sulfur too... stop tweaking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheyCallMeMr.703 February 20, 2014 Share February 20, 2014 (edited) Yup, if you blow it around, floats off into a corner, and it gets no light... it dies. Thus releasing those nutrients, Right back into the water.... Don't overfeed. Do you wash your frozen food before?? You could go out and spend allot of money, and get some nice equipment, parts, dosing stuff, etc.... but I really don't think its needed, as everything is doing alright in your tank ATM. Keep It Simple. Cheato, Water Changes, and Time... let the Biological System catch up to the new bio-load in the tank, the cheato will help tremendously. Don't forget to trim. Remember the goal, is to create a Natural, ''Almost'' Self-Supporting Ecosystem. Give it a chance to get back in balance within' itself.... Got allot of life in that tank now for the Bio-Load to handle.... Saw you responded to everyone's, but mine ... figured would say again ... as this seems to be the consensus... Maybe... up the only 20g a week change, to get levels where you want quicker... and limit feeding once again. Cheato and time should help... Rinse your food. Edited February 20, 2014 by TheyCallMeMr.703 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
s2nhle February 20, 2014 Share February 20, 2014 I heard Kalk will bind phosphat to become calcium phosphat which will be removed by the skimmer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YHSublime February 20, 2014 Author Share February 20, 2014 the real answer here is to stop chasing magic numbers. if corals are growing and fish aren't dying, then what's the issue? a little cyano patch? I have a tank that has had the same cyano patch for 2 years and it wont go away but the rest of the tank is phenomenal. there are many tanks that have "higher" than nsw phosphate that do plenty fine. cyano can use sulfur too... stop tweaking. Not chasing any numbers. Chasing red slime issues, and the experience of others that have had crashes happen because of high phosphates. If I've gotten anything out of starting this thread, is it's that I need to be smarter in the way I feed. Saw you responded to everyone's, but mine ... figured would say again ... as this seems to be the consensus... Maybe... up the only 20g a week change, to get levels where you want quicker... and limit feeding once again. Cheato and time should help... Rinse your food. Sorry I didn't respond. Here are my thoughts: You're right, I should not over feed. All my food gets soaked in Selcon at least a day before in RO water, I dip, and fill up with NSW. Although I don't think it's needed, this is the process I go through. I don't think my biological system has a new bio-load to catch up with... so in that respect I don't know what you're talking about. I have run cheato before, but was not sure how much it was doing for me. I think at this stage in the hobby I can benefit from it. IMO our saltwater tanks are anything but self supporting. I believe that beneficial bacteria takes time, but you keep mentioning catching up to my new bioload. So my thoughts after all of that are: You're right, I should not overfeed. That is also what I took away from the general consensus. Just stop being stubborn, and feed less. I heard Kalk will bind phosphat to become calcium phosphat which will be removed by the skimmer. That's interesting. Can you elaborate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanM February 20, 2014 Share February 20, 2014 That's interesting. Can you elaborate? I'm interested too. One of the things I did the day before I got my really low phosphate number was mix up some kalk paste and try to squirt it into the mouths of my aiptasia. It got all over in little white bits, and I freaked out a little bit about what it would do to my pH or alk, but neither really went anywhere. Maybe it was too old to do that because it was from like 2010 that I'd gotten as a freebie from someone. Does the calcium hydroxide convert to calcium carbonate in the can eventually? Don't answer that because I don't want to derail Isaac's thread. Maybe that's why I got such a low number and not the other things I did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zygote2k February 20, 2014 Share February 20, 2014 I've never heard of a tank crashing from cyano bacteria. high p04 would be 1.0 or higher. The 300g reef that I took over from another company had this kind of p04 level and the corals were still living and some were growing. Your high reading of .22 is really nothing to worry about if you have good coral growth. I'd recommend feeding the fish no more than 3x per day. The 300 gets 2x daily feedings from the feeder plus a cube of Mysis per day plus Nori mon/fri, plus reef chili mon/fri. Tank has 10 Pj's, 3 blue-eyed cardinals, 4-line wrasse, blackcap basslet, a Genicanthus angel, Hippo tang, desjardini tang, 2x yellow tangs, purple tang, 3 clowns, filefish, ruby wrasse, blue throat leopard wrasse, Helfrichs firefish, pr of seahorses, marine betta. That's 31 fish total. I run 2 reactors, no fuge. N03 is zero and P04 is between 0.25 and 0.5. Tank full of LPS, shrooms, montiporas, gorgonians. Currently thriving. still see an occasional patch of cyano but never worry about it. I told the customer they usually have to pay for red stuff in the tank, they can get this stuff for free. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Origami February 21, 2014 Share February 21, 2014 That's interesting. Can you elaborate? Calcium phosphate can form at the locally high pH where a kalkwasser drip hits the water. The solid might then export on the bubbles in a skimmer. The export mechanism is not a typical means of controlling phosphates, though, as pH will climb as alkalinity climbs. Sent from my LG G-Pad 8.3 Google Play Edition Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharkey18 February 21, 2014 Share February 21, 2014 Zygote, no one is suggesting a tank crash from cyano. The concern is not that the tank will crash but that the sps that Issac is keeping may not be able to tolerate those levels for very long. I have no doubt that the 300 you are running with that bioload looks great but it is full of corals that can tolerate much higher levels, i.e. not acropora. Tanks with different critters require different conditions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YHSublime February 21, 2014 Author Share February 21, 2014 Calcium phosphate can form at the locally high pH where a kalkwasser drip hits the water. The solid might then export on the bubbles in a skimmer. The export mechanism is not a typical means of controlling phosphates, though, as pH will climb as alkalinity climbs. Great explanation, thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YHSublime February 21, 2014 Author Share February 21, 2014 I've never heard of a tank crashing from cyano bacteria. high p04 would be 1.0 or higher. The 300g reef that I took over from another company had this kind of p04 level and the corals were still living and some were growing. Your high reading of .22 is really nothing to worry about if you have good coral growth. Although I agree with .22 is nothing to worry about, I fear that number was going to continue to climb. I need to be better at feeding less and more, instead of more and more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lutz123 February 21, 2014 Share February 21, 2014 You've gotten great advice about feeding. The less variables that are introduced, the easier it is to address issues. The tank is beautiful - good job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zygote2k February 22, 2014 Share February 22, 2014 Zygote, no one is suggesting a tank crash from cyano. The concern is not that the tank will crash but that the sps that Issac is keeping may not be able to tolerate those levels for very long. I have no doubt that the 300 you are running with that bioload looks great but it is full of corals that can tolerate much higher levels, i.e. not acropora. Tanks with different critters require different conditions. didn't anyone see the tank from RC that had .25 and was full of acropora? It's still chasing a magic number. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
s2nhle February 22, 2014 Share February 22, 2014 Calcium phosphate can form at the locally high pH where a kalkwasser drip hits the water. The solid might then export on the bubbles in a skimmer. The export mechanism is not a typical means of controlling phosphates, though, as pH will climb as alkalinity climbs. Sent from my LG G-Pad 8.3 Google Play Edition Thank you Tom for quick response. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YHSublime February 28, 2014 Author Share February 28, 2014 didn't anyone see the tank from RC that had .25 and was full of acropora? It's still chasing a magic number. Rob, you know I agree with you about chasing magic numbers, however, this is not the case, no number chasing here. I'm going by visual here, and can honestly say I have not tested my tank since my original post on this thread. What I have done is feed less, and a 40 gallon water change, and added 20+ gallons volume with the mantis tank. With manual removal of the cyano, I have noticed it coming back less, I have also noticed the thin layer of algae on my back wall has started to receed, and quickly. I have also noticed water clarity improving, not that it was bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharkey18 March 12, 2014 Share March 12, 2014 Update? What have you done differently? Has it affected your phosphate levels? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanM March 12, 2014 Share March 12, 2014 I heard he was planning to wrap the display in animal print fabric to scare the phosphates and cyano down into the sump. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YHSublime March 12, 2014 Author Share March 12, 2014 Update? What have you done differently? Has it affected your phosphate levels? So my phosphates are dropping, not rapidly, but slowly and surely. My red slime is diminishing, and my bubble algae is disappearing (thanks emerald crabs!) The changes I made in order to lower them were the following: 1. Turned up my flow. This was done first, and I saw no noticeable effects, except my LPS hated me, and my SPS loved me. 2. Fed less, kept doing water changes. This is IMO, the most effective. I have not changed my lighting schedule, I have no dosed anything, I have just simply taken the advice of other reefers, and fed only what was being eaten in 5 minutes. I started feeding once a day, but I'm up to 2x a day, and just less. 3. I added 20+ gallons and 10lbs of sand into my entire system. I will test my levels tonight and give a firm update, the above is based on visual cues. I heard he was planning to wrap the display in animal print fabric to scare the phosphates and cyano down into the sump. And this is going to be #4 if the first 3 don't work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharkey18 March 12, 2014 Share March 12, 2014 Good to hear! Looking to forward to seeing the numbers.... not that we're chasing numbers Rob! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanM March 12, 2014 Share March 12, 2014 Good to hear! Looking to forward to seeing the numbers.... not that we're chasing numbers Rob! I spent too much of my life chasing numbers, but have been happily married for 8.5 years now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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