Super low alk and a hanna checker, questions and concerns

[wangspeed]

If you're already near NSW, I'd target 6.5 dkh. If you bring it up beyond that, and you are running low nutrients, you'll end up with RTN/STN.

 

--

Warren

[Origami]

8 dKH works fine for most ULN tanks. A few years ago, reports of burnt tips on sps seemed to come out starting around 9 dKH and more commonly, 10 dKH. NSW surface alk runs around 7 dKH according to Holmes-Farley's article, Reef Aquarium Water Parameters. Without other adjustments, though, pH can run a bit low at this low alk level given the higher concentrations of CO2 typically found in our homes. It's a balance.

[AlanM]

Tom, since we're talking about reef ion numbers here, and since Isaac probably won't care if I hijack his thread for a minute....

 

I seem to be using no Ca.  I dose BRS 2-part alk supplement about 12ml per day. which would be around .15 dKH each day for my total volume.  I am maintaining it at 8.4 dKH (actually 3meq/L since 3 is easier for me to remember than 8.4).  I test Ca once per week and it's always right at 420ppm, which is the number that is in balance with my carbonate according to the hanna checker charts you posted.  I never dose Ca.  What gives with my dropping alk but steady Ca and Mg?  My alk drops 0.15 dKH each day if I do nothing, so in a week I drop a full point.

 

I know the nitrogen cycle can take out carbonate, but RHF says it's a very small effect, and I grow so much algae that I should get all that carbonate back. 

[Origami]

Calcium cabonate formation drops calcium levels by 20 ppm for every 2.8 dKH used. Thus, if you're using 0.15 dKH per day, you'll get a corresponding drop of 1.1 ppm calcium per day. Since most calcium test kits have a resolution of 10-20 ppm, you may not see the shift happen, but it will happen.

 

There are exceptions that affect this calcium:alkalinity ratio. First, nitrate accumulation and management of nitrate through water changes can affect the consumption ratio because the nitrate-to-nitrogen conversion actually returns 1 unit of alkalinity back to the water column. Thus, if you have high nitrates and are managing it through water changes, it's possibly to see unbalanced alkalinity consumption. Also, depending upon the corals and coralline algae growth, some calcium consumption can be replaced by consumption of magnesium, reducing the calcium demand slightly.

 

Tom, since we're talking about reef ion numbers here, and since Isaac probably won't care if I hijack his thread for a minute....

 

I seem to be using no Ca.  I dose BRS 2-part alk supplement about 12ml per day. which would be around .15 dKH each day for my total volume.  I am maintaining it at 8.4 dKH (actually 3meq/L since 3 is easier for me to remember than 8.4).  I test Ca once per week and it's always right at 420ppm, which is the number that is in balance with my carbonate according to the hanna checker charts you posted.  I never dose Ca.  What gives with my dropping alk but steady Ca and Mg?  My alk drops 0.15 dKH each day if I do nothing, so in a week I drop a full point.

 

I know the nitrogen cycle can take out carbonate, but RHF says it's a very small effect, and I grow so much algae that I should get all that carbonate back. 

 

 

But, for the most part, just keep the 20 ppm to 2.8 dKH (which is 1 milli equivalent/liter) alkalinity ratio in the back of your head as a useful random fact.

[Origami]

BTW, what calcium test kit are you using? I had a Red Sea calcium test kit way back when I started out that always seemed to give me the same reading. I haven't bought another Red Sea calcium test kit since. (They've since come out with new products which may be better, but it's not changed my buying habits.)

[AlanM]

But, for the most part, just keep the 20 ppm to 2.8 dKH (which is 1 milli equivalent/liter) alkalinity ratio in the back of your head as a useful random fact.

 

Great.  That's a good one to know.  Thanks. 

 

I'm thinking about upping my Mg to the mid 1400's (it's at around 1320 right now) which supposedly lets me up the Ca without precipitating out lots of CaCO3 while keeping the CO3 the same.  The thinking would be that more available calcium ions may help my colored sticks grow.  What you think?

[AlanM]

BTW, what calcium test kit are you using? I had a Red Sea calcium test kit way back when I started out that always seemed to give me the same reading. I haven't bought another Red Sea calcium test kit since. (They've since come out with new products which may be better, but it's not changed my buying habits.)

 

Well, I'm using a Red Sea Pro one.  I can get a different one, to calibrate against.  I took my water to Marine Scene one time I was visiting there and they got the same Mg and Ca numbers I did. 

 

I can also dump a bunch of calcium chloride into a fresh saltwater sample and test with my kit to see if I get a different number.

[Origami]

Alkalinity and pH has strong influence on growth rates from what I've observed. Magnesium at 1320 should be fine for all practical levels of calcium and alkalinity concentration. I wouldn't raise it for this reason alone. (It takes a lot of magnesium chloride to raise magnesium levels by a small amount due to relative weight of the chloride ions and the hydration). You can also influence growth through light and photoperiod.

 

Too high levels of alk can be detrimental (burnt SPS tips) in some tanks. The level varies. I've heard of some tanks that ran alk up to 15 or even 18 dKH. This would not be reasonable in most tanks. I used to run my tanks regularly at 10 dKH until I started seeing what looked like burnt SPS tips once I started carbon dosing. I backed off to 8 dKH at that point.

[Origami]

Well, I'm using a Red Sea Pro one.  I can get a different one, to calibrate against.  I took my water to Marine Scene one time I was visiting there and they got the same Mg and Ca numbers I did. 

 

I can also dump a bunch of calcium chloride into a fresh saltwater sample and test with my kit to see if I get a different number.

If you're seeing coral growth, you're using calcium. You have to. The skeleton is calcium carbonate.

[YHSublime]

DIY two part:

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-02/rhf/

 

BRS also has recipes. For many tanks, regular old Arm & Hammer baking soda is all you need for alkalinity. I would use BRS calcium chloride for the calcium supplement rather than calcium chloride ice melt for controlled purity, but a good, clean ice melt can be just as good and a lot cheaper. I've used magnesium chloride ice melt for a magnesium supplement for years.

 

 

 

Raising the alk doesn't seem like that big a deal, Arm & Hammer is easily and readily available. Raising my calcium is a different matter. I would grab dow's flake and try it at home, however it's not as available as baking soda. If I have to order something, then I am just going with BRS all the way around.

 

I have a large bottle of Instant Ocean Calcium Booster, the negative is it's not listed as a suggested method for boosting calcium on any reef calculator. The positive is that I have it. The IO calcium booster suggests 5ml per 50 gallons, and it's ingredient label reads: Primarily Concentrated Calcium Chloride. It's also suggested to tightly monitor alk levels as you add. I was thinking about adding 15ml into my 5 gallon ato bucket, which roughly takes about 3 days to go through, essentially 5ml a day.

 

Thoughts?

 

Raising the alk doesn't seem like that big a deal, Arm & Hammer is easily and readily available. Raising my calcium is a different matter. I would grab dow's flake and try it at home, however it's not as available as baking soda. If I have to order something, then I am just going with BRS all the way around.

 

I have a large bottle of Instant Ocean Calcium Booster, the negative is it's not listed as a suggested method for boosting calcium on any reef calculator. The positive is that I have it. The IO calcium booster suggests 5ml per 50 gallons, and it's ingredient label reads: Primarily Concentrated Calcium Chloride. It's also suggested to tightly monitor alk levels as you add. I was thinking about adding 15ml into my 5 gallon ato bucket, which roughly takes about 3 days to go through, essentially 5ml a day.

 

Thoughts?

[Tracy G]

I had the same issue with my tank and noticed my tank used Alk more than anything. I now dose the Thrive Alk, Calcium, and Phosphate remover. If you use the Thrive Website you can put in your parameters and it tells you step by step on how to get to correct levels. Including speed at witch to add. I would go to QR and just pick up that one bottle and put your numbers into thrive and follow instructions. Makes it easy then I would start a 2 part or whatever way you go. Just what is working for me

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Origami]

Raising the alk doesn't seem like that big a deal, Arm & Hammer is easily and readily available. Raising my calcium is a different matter. I would grab dow's flake and try it at home, however it's not as available as baking soda. If I have to order something, then I am just going with BRS all the way around.

 

I have a large bottle of Instant Ocean Calcium Booster, the negative is it's not listed as a suggested method for boosting calcium on any reef calculator. The positive is that I have it. The IO calcium booster suggests 5ml per 50 gallons, and it's ingredient label reads: Primarily Concentrated Calcium Chloride. It's also suggested to tightly monitor alk levels as you add. I was thinking about adding 15ml into my 5 gallon ato bucket, which roughly takes about 3 days to go through, essentially 5ml a day.

 

Thoughts?

 

 

Most likely this is just calcium chloride and water. I used a similar product a long time ago by Seachem that had "advanced" directions in addition to the simple directions. These advanced directions told you how much to add to a certain volume of water to bring calcium up by a certain amount. This effectively indicated the concentration of the solution. If the IO product doesn't have similar directions, then I'd finish the bottle and stop using the product because they're basically driving you down a dose-test-dose-test path until you get it right. They should help you at the outset by providing the right information for an advanced aquarist.

 

 

I had the same issue with my tank and noticed my tank used Alk more than anything. I now dose the Thrive Alk, Calcium, and Phosphate remover. If you use the Thrive Website you can put in your parameters and it tells you step by step on how to get to correct levels. Including speed at witch to add. I would go to QR and just pick up that one bottle and put your numbers into thrive and follow instructions. Makes it easy then I would start a 2 part or whatever way you go. Just what is working for me

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Keep in mind that you don't "use" more alk than calcium because it takes both calcium and alkalinity to create calcium carbonate coral skeletons. What you're seeing is the result of two factors:  a) Alkalinity test kit sensitivity is higher than calcium test kits. And, b) calcium concentration in sea water is proportionally higher than alkalinity levels.

 

Think of the water as a box of differently colored ping pong balls, with each color corresponding to a different ion. Let's divide the box into chambers and put each different colored ball into its own chamber. In one chamber, we have something like 420 red balls (representing about 420 ppm calcium) and in another chamber 280 green balls (representing about 8 dKH of alkalinity). Assume that, to make a coral skeleton molecule, you need to take one red ball from the one chamber and pair it with two green balls from the other chamber. You can see now that, not only do you start with fewer green balls, but that the number of green balls falls proportionally faster. In fact, you could use up all of the green balls and still have 280 red balls left in the red-ball chamber. The result is that it looks like you're consuming alk faster when, in fact, it's being consumed according to a fairly well known ratio.

[sachabballi reef]

 

Keep in mind that you don't "use" more alk than calcium because it takes both calcium and alkalinity to create calcium carbonate coral skeletons. What you're seeing is the result of two factors:  a) Alkalinity test kit sensitivity is higher than calcium test kits. And, b) calcium concentration in sea water is proportionally higher than alkalinity levels.

 

Think of the water as a box of differently colored ping pong balls, with each color corresponding to a different ion. Let's divide the box into chambers and put each different colored ball into its own chamber. In one chamber, we have something like 420 red balls (representing about 420 ppm calcium) and in another chamber 280 green balls (representing about 8 dKH of alkalinity). Assume that, to make a coral skeleton molecule, you need to take one red ball from the one chamber and pair it with two green balls from the other chamber. You can see now that, not only do you start with fewer green balls, but that the number of green balls falls proportionally faster. In fact, you could use up all of the green balls and still have 280 red balls left in the red-ball chamber. The result is that it looks like you're consuming alk faster when, in fact, it's being consumed according to a fairly well known ratio.

see this is why I adore Tom...he is SO good at explaining things that even I can understand 

[AlanM]

If you're seeing coral growth, you're using calcium. You have to. The skeleton is calcium carbonate.

 

I'm seeing a couple of them grow.  Also I have lots of those little spirobid worms all over, which use calcium too, I think.  And a teensy bit of coralline.  And my turbo snails have added a quarter inch since putting them in. On the coral front I've seen a digitata really add some branches and a rose tabler encrust and that's about it.  All calcium users, but small ones.  Maybe my water changes are keeping up with my minimal demand so far.

[YHSublime]

So I tested tonight and the water change (which I calculated to be closer to 30 gallons) made the following changes.

 

Alkalinity came in at 116, which by my rough translation comes out to about 6.50 dkH. Based off my original readings yesterday, that means a (35 for good measure) gallon water change brought my alk up by almost 1. I tested against my API kit, which gave me 7, as acuratly as an API kit can.

 

Calcium is the same, at 380.

 

I added two capfulls of that calcium chloride solution into my top off, and plan on soaking some baking soda in RO tonight. Will probably let it sit overnight and very slowly start adding tomorrow night.

[gmerek2]

I'm seeing a couple of them grow.  Also I have lots of those little spirobid worms all over, which use calcium too, I think.  And a teensy bit of coralline.  And my turbo snails have added a quarter inch since putting them in. On the coral front I've seen a digitata really add some branches and a rose tabler encrust and that's about it.  All calcium users, but small ones.  Maybe my water changes are keeping up with my minimal demand so far.

my reef crystals says on the box the calcium and mag levels at 1.025 so that is what is replenishing you enough to get growth and good color. The numbers simply are guidelines. I think some people can get too crazy about treating the numbers and not the corals. However I hear these stable numbers and overall stability can bring amazinger color and growth so I'm curious to see what it will bring in my tank.