My tank has ich

[Origami]

Lyle, to tag onto lnevo's comment, one thing that I consistently hear from speakers and friends that have been in this hobby (Bob Fenner, Christine Williams, John Coppolino, Kevin Kohen, etc.) relates to the stressful conditions that fish go through to get to our tanks and how it relates to these early mortalities that we see shortly after their introduction.

 

We had Bob Fenner (author of a number of books, including "The Conscientious Marine Aquarist," probably the best, first book to own about the hobby in my opinion) over as a speaker a while back. In his talk, one of the items that he described was the chain-of-custody that a fish goes through from the diver to the retailer and how quickly that happens. From memory, the chain looked something like this:

 

Diver > holding tank on boat > holding tank at ground facility > box > truck to remote island airport > airport cargo > airplane > airport cargo > truck > wholesaler's tank > box> truck > airport cargo > airplane > airport cargo > truck > Your LFS's tank > car > You

 

This chain of custody may take as little as 10-days to 3 weeks. Many times, the fish doesn't spend more than 48 hours in any one of these places, except towards the end. (There are exceptions to this and getting to know which outfits pause to QT and allow the fish to recover is a good idea.) There's mortality along the way, and the fish that survive are very stressed and may not have been eating either because they're stressed or because they're in transit without food. It's not an easy journey and the stress makes them susceptible to pathogens and parasites. And, to top it off, some fish seem to be more prone to stress failures than others. Powder Blues and Hippo tangs among them.

 

QT, thus, has two functions. The obvious one that we always talk about is to mitigate against the risk of introducing disease and/or parasites into your tank. The other, less obvious but possibly as important if not more so, is to recover and help strengthen highly stressed, disease-susceptible fish that we just purchased. Knowing how long your LFS has had the fish before selling it to you, what their QT procedures are, whether or not it's been eating and what it's been eating, are all important as they point to the residual stress that you're going to have to deal with and the risk that you're accepting when buying the fish.

 

So often I see people look for the best price on a fish thinking this is the "bottom line." It's not. When a shop "flips" a fish over to you quickly after a long and fast moving chain of command, you're accepting an increased risk of loss that they're not, which allows them to sell a fish at a lower price. Those that hold the fish longer, or even that refuse to sell one to you until they've recovered are accepting more of the loss risk, are using up valuable commercial space for QT & recovery, etc. adding to their cost. The result that we hope for is one where we at the end of the chain of custody get a healthier fish that has a better chance of survival in our tanks than we might otherwise get at a lower price if the fish is turned around quickly through the wholesaler's and retailer's tanks. That's not to say don't buy a fish that's being flipped quickly. You can get good deals this way. You just need to be aware of that fact and be prepared to accept the risk and responsibilities that go with it.

 

My feeling in your PB Tang's situation is that this all started and ended with stress, and that the final destination (your tank) may not have allowed for a proper recovery, leading to it's failing condition and ultimate passing. It's a lesson that we all learn. I've had losses just like this - especially when starting out. Sometimes that's just the way we learn despite all our efforts to prepare through reading. Sometimes it takes a day or two of attendance at the school of hard knocks to really teach us. I know that I and many others here have shared class time together in this regard.

[collettk]

Collettk, how are the rest of your fish doing now that the PB is not an issue? Particularly the Fairy Wrasse?

 

Any update on the tank parameters?

 

I don't have much experience with fish, but I still stand by my thoughts in post #43.

I also think that the Dr. Tims will be a saving grace in this case, and really hope it works!

 

Let us know how it's going!

Thanks YHSublime,

I tested Ammonia and Nitrite this morning....Ammonia 0, Nitrite .25ppm....tank is still full of ugly diatoms....all  the fish seem fine although I'm keeping an eye on the one wrasse that swims up and down the glass.  I also have a favia and galaxy coral and a few button star polyp frags...the galaxy coral and star polyps don't look to happy right now (I'm thinking because of the nitrite lvls and possibly because I up the temp to 80F.

[collettk]

_{Thanks Inevo and Origami,}

 

_{Everything you have said sounds spot on.  There is a lot of moving parts to this hobby that someone new like me has to digest.  Some things I might not even full grasp until I experience it myself.  I appreciate all the input everyone's giving me in this forum, the LFS, and from friends I know in the hobby.  I do need to get a QT set up fairly soon (though logistically I need to figure out how best to set that up as both space and money is fast becoming a drying up resource).}

 

  _{As far as cheap 'flipped' fish.  The only one we really took a gamble on was the Hippo tang (and we paid for that one).  All the other fish we were at least told they had been at the shop several weeks before we bought it.  Marine Scene and Blue Ribbon Koi have been especially helpful in ensuring we select the best fish for our tank.  We almost bought a few fish from Marine Scene that they decided for us that it was a bad call and are very grateful we listened to them.  The challenge has been trying to sort all the varying views we get at each stage of this process.  I remember when I was first figuring out how to set up my sump, after seeing several designs we decided to follow a video we saw from New York Steelo.  In the video we were told to put the skimmer in the 1st chamber but then we talked to someone from a LFS who told us we were backwards and it needed to be in the last chamber (return chamber).  Then we were told by another person we had it right the 1st time....talk about confusing.  Then another LFS owner told us we only need 80lbs of live rock for our 180g tank even though everything I read said I needed 1lb for every gallon.  He said that was old school thinking.  I didn't listen to him.}

 

_{It sucks we lost all the tangs (two died and one I returned to LFS) but it's hard to sort out what we were told because someone might be trying to sell a fish and whether were being overly cautious.  And lets face it, how hard was it for you the 1st time you ever set up a reef tank to be patient and look at an empty tank after dropping thousands on equipment and filtration.  We probably listened to what we wanted to hear more than things that weren't so appealing.  Lesson learned now we're just trying to weather our mistakes.  There's no way we're going to add another fish to my tank without proper QT and it will be a while before we add anything else.}

Edited September 2, 2013 by collettk

[Origami]

Patience is difficult at first. That's for sure. The guideline for rock makes a lot of assumptions about density of the rock. Aquacultured rock from Florida can be very dense, for example, and you may want 1-1/2 to 2 pounds per gallon; lighter and more porous rocks like branching Tonga would require much less. What they're really trying to get at is to provide enough rock and surface area for your biological filtration.

 

If the fish was at the LFS for a few weeks and was eating and looking well, then it was probably the stress in the new tank that was not yet fully developed that started this episode. Add fish incrementally and let the filter mature to match the bioload.

[zygote2k]

I'm sorry if you thought I was giving you a hard time but I see this happen all the time with people on forums and clients and it seems as if no one wants to do solid research before purchasing things. An average reef tank will cost $3-$10k and I figure that if you're gonna spend that much, you research the heck out of it before pulling the trigger.

You absolutely cannot let the retailer educate you in this process since they generally will try to sell you something regardless.

If you do this the quick impatient american way, you will learn things the hard way and with your pocketbook. If you go slowly and educate yourself about every single item, you will have a much easier, cheaper, and ultimately successful time in this hobby.

 

Contrary to popular belief, home QT is not needed unless you constantly are introducing fish. The old school way of fish purchasing was to buy an initial batch of fish according to tank size, wait 2-3 months for the tank to cycle, then add a fish per month until stocking was complete. There used to be an old rule of thumb that said you can only have 1 linear inch of fish per 5 gallons of water if you have adequate filtration. A standard 3" tall by 5" long hippo tang would require 40 gallons of water.

If you cycled your tank properly and you don't have too many fish, then you should be able to achieve a net loss of organics resulting in zero nitrate without a skimmer.

 

Fish aren't generally sick when brought out of the ocean. Some wholesalers have excellent holding, shipping, and QT facilities, some do not. Some LFS take great care in their fish and others do not. You generally get what you pay for in this hobby. Watch out for LFS who are competing against the 3 other LFS in a race to win the almighty customer dollar at all costs because chances are, they are cutting corners somewhere to eke out the slimmest of profits. The fish might have been the place where they cut the corner...

 

My advice to you and anyone else who is experiencing these mistakes is to READ, READ, READ, then ask questions on the forums when you can't find the answers in the books. Read only those books that have references at the back of them. I believe WAMAS has an extensive fish library available to its' members....

Talk to those people who have been doing this longer than 20 years and you'll hear similar advice.

[collettk]

zygote2k,

 

Appreciate the advice. nice pics on your site btw.

 

Day 10 - wife adding Kick-Ich this evening (I'm teaching class this evening)...I'll update you with how the tank looks when I get home or tomorrow morning. One more dose of Kick-ich to go before I can put my skimmer back on

Edited September 3, 2013 by collettk

[collettk]

Day 11 - Ammonia 0ppm

              Nitrite  .25ppm (still)

              Nitrate 5ppm

 

I guess my tank is hitting its ugly stage (diatoms and cloudy water)

 

At least the fish seem fine.  Corals look ticked off though.

 

I'll keep you post on Day 13 (last application of the Kick-Ich).  Hopefully my nitrite will go down soon...Thought it would be quick then this since I added 16oz of Dr Tim's.  Oh well.

[smallreef]

I think 1 bottle of dr Tim's does 80 or so gallons?

I'm glad your slowing it down...just give it some time...

[YHSublime]

Really like the rock work btw, going to be a beautiful tank! Keep taking it easy!

[collettk]

I think 1 bottle of dr Tim's does 80 or so gallons?

I'm glad your slowing it down...just give it some time...

The bottle said 120g each.

[collettk]

Really like the rock work btw, going to be a beautiful tank! Keep taking it easy!

Thanks.

[londonloco]

WOW, beautiful rock work....more pics...please....

[lnevo]

Really like the rock work btw, going to be a beautiful tank! Keep taking it easy!

+1

 

Wow!! Perfect rock formations. I love it!!! Can't wait to see it in a year!

[collettk]

Day 12 - no real change.  I think I still have a little bit of ammonia in my tank.  Its hard to tell with these test kit between the yellow 0 and the yellow-light green .25ppm.  My nitrites are still there :( .  I figured it would be gone by now since it has been almost six days since I added Dr. Tim's One and Only.

 

Thanks for the comments about my rock work.  As many times as I had to redo it trying to get fish out it never seems to look as good as it just did before I disturbed it.

Edited September 5, 2013 by collettk

[collettk]

Day 14 - added the last Kick-Ich treatment.  All the fish seem t be doing fine.  Nitrite still sits at .25ppm.  I'll turn back on my skimmer, carbon, GFO, and UV sterilizer on Monday.  Looks like the Diatoms might be dying off but now my water column is cloudy...I think I hit a bacteria bloom cycle because of all the dead diatoms (just a guess).  Here pics of what it looks like today: 

 

[sachabballi reef]

does look like an algae bloom...

can you still see spots on the fish? all eating ?

[collettk]

No...fish all look healthy.

[sachabballi reef]

No...fish all look healthy.

fantastic!

[Mattiejay6]

What fish don't respond well to copper treatment? I was reading that some don't tolerate it very well, but haven't really been able to find any definitive answer or list.

 

Is cupramine the preferred copper treatment or do you all use any others?

[monkiboy]

What fish don't respond well to copper treatment? I was reading that some don't tolerate it very well, but haven't really been able to find any definitive answer or list.

 

Is cupramine the preferred copper treatment or do you all use any others?

generally, smooth-skinned fish such as mandarins, some wrasses, rays, etc. if you're unsure, then ask the manufacturer of the medicine you plan to use - there is usually awesome support. cupramine is my preferred copper treatment.

[Mattiejay6]

Thanks !

[collettk]

Update: been over a month now and everything seems to be doing well...I did lose two Athias but I think that the dominate one bullied them to death. I also thought I lost a wrasse but I found him today in my overflow...he didn't look to good but I got him out and put him back in the tank. I hope that wasn't a mistake. He was discolored and weak. I'm hoping he's just famished.

[YHSublime]

Update: been over a month now and everything seems to be doing well...I did lose two Athias but I think that the dominate one bullied them to death. I also thought I lost a wrasse but I found him today in my overflow...he didn't look to good but I got him out and put him back in the tank. I hope that wasn't a mistake. He was discolored and weak. I'm hoping he's just famished.

 

Glad to hear things are going well! How long was your wrasse in the overflow?! I don't have any advice as to if it was a good idea or not, but I would feed asap and see if you can get it eating.

[collettk]

Glad to hear things are going well! How long was your wrasse in the overflow?! I don't have any advice as to if it was a good idea or not, but I would feed asap and see if you can get it eating.

He was in there over a month. When I got him out the return and return him to the tank I thought he was going to die right there then he finally went into hiding and I haven't seen him since ( just a couple hours ago). I turn out the light to hope to calm everything down in my tank.

Edited October 13, 2013 by collettk

[MisterTang]

What fish don't respond well to copper treatment? I was reading that some don't tolerate it very well, but haven't really been able to find any definitive answer or list.

 

 

Dwarf Angels are also recommended to not be treated with copper. I have had fairly good luck with six-minute freshwater dips in lieu of copper and then restricting them to a bare-bottom 10-gallon observation tank for several weeks for these types of fish.