Water Changes, to be, or not to be

[YHSublime]

I know this is a point of contention for a lot of hobbyist. I would like to better understand it.

 

I've been a huge advocate of water changes, as it's my belief that it restores trace elements that are used. I also suspect that I rid a lot of detritus and waste, as I siphon my sand bed and rocks when I do my changes.. I've been reading Martin A. Moe, Jr.'s "Beginner to breeder" marine aquarium handbook, and one of the first chapters is all about saltwater and it's composition. It got me thinking about not only keeping everything alive in my tank, for somebody who does no dosing, I'm relying on my water alone to provide for my corals needs (Obviously putting light aside, as that is not what I'm talking about right now.) Reef Crystals brand actually claims that it eliminates the needs for supplementing, but that leads me to presume that frequent water changes are necessary. You flush the toilet when you're done, right?

 

So the part I don't understand is going without water changes and just doing top offs:

 

What is the theory here? A bomb skimmer, heavy water flow, and dosing as needed? Does it depend on the age or the maturity of a tank? Does the tank need to have a huge deep sand bed and copious amounts of live rock?

 

Lets say I was to get off my water change theory, and completely stop doing water changes as of tonight. 

If my nitrates and phosphates crept upwards, would I have to start using bio pellets in order to control that? Would I have to run carbon or GFO? Would I have to start dosing calcium? Essentially, if I stopped doing water changes, would I have to react to all my levels accordingly? Or would the average knowledgeable hobbyist recommend a water change? 

 

And if dosing is the reaction to controlling our tanks, my theory could be blown out of the water based on the fact that if your tank is packed, water changes probably wouldn't be enough to put the needed elements back in my tank, requiring dosing anyways, therefore making that water change redundant... 

 

At this point, I'm rambling, but I'd like to hear what other have to say. I'm not a Marine Biologist, I'm just a Reefopotomus, a simple creature searching for knowledge! 

 

 

 

  

[jimlin]

didnt really work for me with my freshwater tank. i am not sure why but the fish dont grow as fast without regular water changes in my experience. maybe water changes takes some of the unwanted bacteria out as well?

[paul b]

I am not a huge advocate of water changes but I do change water, just not as much as most people.  I change about 20% of the water about 5 or 6 times a year.  To me, new tanks with all new water look lousy, nothing grows and the fish are not real good looking nor are they spawning.  I realize that could have something to do with the bacteria growing on the rock and their ability to process waste.

I am also not a big advocate of dosing although I do add home made calcium and baking soda.  Thats about it.

My tank is filled with SPS,  LPS, gorgs, leathers and all my paired fish are spawning.  So if my tank can get along for decades with few water changes and almost no dosing, I fel that corals don't require that many trace elements and the detritus also doesn't affect them.  I only stir the gravel once or twice a year to get some detritus out and you don't see any in my tank.

My nitrates now are high, about 40.  I don't want to lower them as the corals are growing faster than the years when the nitrates were very low. (I don't know why yet so I am experimenting) I also don't use any reactors or chemicals to lower phosphates or nitrates and no GAC.  I think success has much more to do with food.

Just my theories of course.   

 

 

Edited June 11, 2013 by paul b

[Coral Hind]

As with most maintenance techniques in the hobby I feel it really depends on your system. There are a lot of different variables to factor in and you just need to try different things and see which one works best for you and your tank. Think about which one is less work for you because if it becomes more work than fun you will slowly view the tank as a chore and less as a hobby.

 

If you have a large system then doing water changes large enough to really make a difference will take a good amount of time and money. For large systems fewer large changes with dosing as needed is best for me. If it is a small system then the water changes done often is easy and worth it. As you mentioned it depends on the coral demand and also the waste load. If the tank is stocked full of corals and fish then water changes alone will not be enough unless they are often and large, then that becomes a chore.

 

If you stopped water changes today and then the nitrates and phosphates did start to be an issue then it still depends on what is in your tank. For me with no more corals it really isn't an issue at all until it gets really high. If you had a tank with just softies and LPS then again it probably wouldn't be a big issue until it reached a certain point, if it ever did. If you have SPS and need an environment that is low in those levels then yes you would have to deal with them by a water change, using reactors, growing algae, or better yet just reduce the cause of the nitrate and phosphate which is normally fish load. Most reef tanks I see have too many fish for what I think a healthy long term sustainable tank should have.

 

I have never needed to do carbon dosing or bio-pellets, and I've never dosed the many Brightwell type supplements out there which to me seem like expensive snake oils. When I had reef tanks full of corals I had a calcium reactor on them with macro algae on reverse daylight. Not over feeding the tank and not keeping a large fish load was enough. I did nice sized water changes every other month. That's just my views of how and why I have run my tanks.

[YHSublime]

I realize that could have something to do with the bacteria growing on the rock and their ability to process waste.

I am also not a big advocate of dosing although I do add home made calcium and baking soda.  Thats about it.

My tank is filled with SPS,  LPS, gorgs, leathers and all my paired fish are spawning.  So if my tank can get along for decades with few water changes and almost no dosing, I fel that corals don't require that many trace elements and the detritus also doesn't affect them.  I only stir the gravel once or twice a year to get some detritus out and you don't see any in my tank.

My nitrates now are high, about 40.  I don't want to lower them as the corals are growing faster than the years when the nitrates were very low. (I don't know why yet so I am experimenting) I also don't use any reactors or chemicals to lower phosphates or nitrates and no GAC.  I think success has much more to do with food.

Just my theories of course.   

 

I figured it wouldn't be long till I heard from you, I'm glad you chimed in. Of course, just your theories, and it's obviously working for you! I summarized your posting with what I took away from it. I  believe you're right, bacteria growing on the rocks/in the rocks and the ability to process waste all depends on the maturity of your tank. I would, 6 months in, have a harder time practicing your techniques than say you would, 40 years in. But back when you started, did you frequently change your water, or did you just set it up and stick with your 20% bi monthly water changes? I've learned that having high nitrates doesn't mean you can't grow corals, and I'm glad that you're looking for an answer, I like the people that experiment with this hobby!

 

I also would like to figure out how to balance my tank naturally (and I mean without using reactors or chemicals) like you mentioned above. But at the end of the day, how "organic" is it really, as most of us are using synthetic saltwater to start with!

 

So if I were to conclude your reasoning for minimal water changes, you would say: "Because I'm not 100% convinced corals need those trace elements us hobbyists are so convinced they need, and i don't think detritus and high nitrates have a huge effect on the growth and inhabitants of a tank." (Question mark.)

 

As with most maintenance techniques in the hobby I feel it really depends on your system. There are a lot of different variables to factor in and you just need to try different things and see which one works best for you and your tank. Think about which one is less work for you because if it becomes more work than fun you will slowly view the tank as a chore and less as a hobby.

 

If you have a large system then doing water changes large enough to really make a difference will take a good amount of time and money. For large systems fewer large changes with dosing as needed is best for me. If it is a small system then the water changes done often is easy and worth it. As you mentioned it depends on the coral demand and also the waste load. If the tank is stocked full of corals and fish then water changes alone will not be enough unless they are often and large, then that becomes a chore.

 

If you stopped water changes today and then the nitrates and phosphates did start to be an issue then it still depends on what is in your tank. For me with no more corals it really isn't an issue at all until it gets really high. If you had a tank with just softies and LPS then again it probably wouldn't be a big issue until it reached a certain point, if it ever did. If you have SPS and need an environment that is low in those levels then yes you would have to deal with them by a water change, using reactors, growing algae, or better yet just reduce the cause of the nitrate and phosphate which is normally fish load. Most reef tanks I see have too many fish for what I think a healthy long term sustainable tank should have.

 

I have never needed to do carbon dosing or bio-pellets, and I've never dosed the many Brightwell type supplements out there which to me seem like expensive snake oils. When I had reef tanks full of corals I had a calcium reactor on them with macro algae on reverse daylight. Not over feeding the tank and not keeping a large fish load was enough. I did nice sized water changes every other month. That's just my views of how and why I have run my tanks.

 

well said, and thought out. Thank you for sharing this information. Like I mentioned above, I would like to try and keep it as close to natural as possible. I realize I already have a variety of fish and corals that aren't particularly species focused, so I'm already contradicting myself here, but hopefully I'm expressing my thoughts as clearly as I can while they come to me. I don't mind water changes, in fact, I enjoy them. It gives me a chance to really inspect my reef, clean my glass, and I feed heavy just before, which is fun. I don't mind adding RO/DI water either instead of using at ATO. I'm sure this will become a chore down the line, but until then, I feel really involved with my tank. I think my system is just small enough that it's the perfect size for me. It's not so small that I have to tweak something every day, it's no so large that I can't handle it and don't want to consider a water change.

 

I  have a large amount of SPS and LPS all over my tank now, so keeping my levels will be important for the future. I'm just trying to think ahead and make sure I can adequately support what I currently have without worrying about my tank crashing. I firmly believe that we over tinker in our tanks, it's hard to let things be, at least in my case. My tank is also young enough that I don't have the ability and bacteria to handle waste, like Pauls tank, for example. I have never dosed, and I have never used any "snake oil" type products either, and I would like to keep it that way. This is in part what leads me to wonder what methods and logic people are using for not performing water changes frequently.

[YHSublime]

didnt really work for me with my freshwater tank. i am not sure why but the fish dont grow as fast without regular water changes in my experience. maybe water changes takes some of the unwanted bacteria out as well?

 

That's my thoughts with saltwater, like I mentioned, you flush when you're done, right?

[BowieReefer84]

This is in part what leads me to wonder what methods and logic people are using for not performing water changes frequently.

 

Lazy.

[YHSublime]

Lazy.

I will be sorely disappoint if that's the case.

[Coral Hind]

The water changes are a good time to blow off the rocks and clean sections of the sand. I like to create a mini typhoon in the tank just before the water change.

[trockafella]

Lazy.

Agreed.. I hear people with there " reasons", but i believe most of.the time its laziness. I don't mind doing water changes, and i feel like all the corals look great about an hour afterwards. I do dose a couple things, Im not sure how much of a difference its really makes but Im happy with it,and ultimately its my tank to do as i please. This hobby is not a one size fits all.

[flooddc]

As other mentioned! every setup is different from one another. Although, it only takes me less than 10 minutes (10% on the 125G) and 5 minutes (20% on the 29G). I personally preferred not to do as much water changes on my tanks. For the last 2+ years, I change my water every 1-2 months. But for some reason, in the last 3 months, my red plating monti DEMANDS water change every 2 weeks. Around the 10 days mark, it start to bleach and color back right up after water change. I have yet figure why, hopefully I can figure it out soon so I can get back to being lazy     !

[paul b]

But back when you started, did you frequently change your water, or did you just set it up and stick with your 20% bi monthly water changes? I've learned that having high nitrates doesn't mean you can't grow corals, and I'm glad that you're looking for an answer, I like the people that experiment with this hobby!

 

 

I think I always changes water as I do now.   ASW was hard to come by then.  But my tank was started with NSW and I used to use more NSW but as I gert older, it gets heavier so I use mostly ASW.

But my original point was that if corals can live in my tank with no additional dosing and not to many water changes, they should be able to live in anyone's tank.  I don't think they use as many trace elements as people think and I also don't think nitrates are as big a deal as people think.  I can lower my nitrates, but I don't want to just yet.

Edited June 11, 2013 by paul b

[zygote2k]

From a maintenance stand point, water changes are the single easiest way to reduce nitrates and phosphates, replenish trace elements naturally found in water, and to maintain stable alkalinity. You can achieve all these wonders with 2 cheap ingredients:

water and salt.

Depending on your feeding habits and type of tank desired, you may have to supplement your water changes with 3 part dosing and/or alternative methods such as refugiums and bio-pellet reactors.

The tanks that get weekly water changes do better than tanks with bi-weekly water changes.

Protein skimmers skim indiscriminately, taking the good along with the bad. Biological processes deplete certain elements like calcium which needs to be replenished.

Sure, you can do it without frequent water changes and no dosing for a while, but unless you're very knowledgeable or very prepared, you should just stick to the basic w/c principle.

[paul b]

.. I hear people with there " reasons", but i believe most of.the time its laziness.

 

 

I am sure that most of the time, for many people it is lazyness, but not for me.  I think the tank runs better with somewhat fewer water changes.  (I didn't say, no water changes) When you change water we are of course removing some nasty stuff but we are also removing things I want to keep in my tank.  Things we can't test for that were added to the water by algae and bacteria.  I realize no one thinks about this except me but thats the way I feel and I still think new tanks with all new water look lousy.  But with the common knowledge, new tanks with all new water should look it's best, but do they?  Or do old tanks with older water look better?

Why do very old tanks such as mine have no problems even with limited water changes?  I feel it is the chemicals that are added over time by algae and bacteria that actually make the tank healthier.

Why for instance do my fish never get sick?  Why don't I have to quarantine? Why are all my paired fish spawning?  Why are all my corals growing very nicely?

I don't know why either, but  with my limited water change schedule you would think the tank would be an unhealthy mess.

How many newer tanks that get water changes every week have all sorts of problems with almost everything?

Could it be something happens to water as it ages in a tank full of bacteria and algae?

Just a thought.

[trockafella]

Again.. Most of the time its laziness. As rob mentioned above, the very knowledgeable (yes, you Paul) can certainly get away with things the average novice at best probably couldn't. Im with you on nitrates, mine have been around 50 for the last 5-6 months and i haven't seen any ill effects. I also agree that new tanks.with tons of attention paid to.them still and often more times than not have issues. Again that's usually the beginner or novice. As you become more experienced you shouldn't and the key word is shouldn't be making the same mistakes.

I don't think i would advise people, especially beginners to use the practice of very little to no water changes. as others have said, i use that water changing time to clean, observe and any other odd task..

[Coral Hind]

I think your tank was overstocked, you had some monsters in there.  Reducing stock levels of fish so the nitrates can be handled biologically and the levels will drop.

[paul b]

I don't think i would advise people, especially beginners to use the practice of very little to no water changes. as others have said, i use that water changing time to clean, observe and any other odd task..

I don't think I would either, but I didn't think we were referring to Noobs

[trockafella]

I think your tank was overstocked, you had some monsters in there.  Reducing stock levels of fish so the nitrates can be handled biologically and the levels will drop.

Very much agreed.. I was planning to upgrade but it didn't happen, so i choose the responsible thing to.do and re home. Im curious as to what effect it.will.have on my nitrate levels. I haven't changed my regimen so we shall see..

[gmerek2]

there is no right or wrong answer here. Just try going with less water changes and see what happens. I just put a baby whale in mine with no water changes and no problems yet

[paul b]

there is no right or wrong answer here. Just try going with less water changes and see what happens. I just put a baby whale in mine with no water changes and no problems yet

You could put a whale shark in there as long as his head is in the water and you feed him worms.  But it may be hard to clean that tank.

For any Noobs that may be accidently reading this thread.  It is not your fault.  None of it.  No matter what you do, starting a tank from scratch is not easy and it will have things that seem to you like problems.  They are not problems.  All that stuff that happens to new tanks goes away in time.  Yes, some of it is because you are getting more experience but the majority of it is because the bacteria in your tank are also getting more experience.  It takes time, lots of time for them to get their act together and grow in the proportions  where they will help you straighten out the "problems" and allow the tank to run smoothly.  If I started a new tank tomorrow I would have all the problems with algae, cyano, ich and everything else that happens in all new tanks.  Probably more than you.  Don't give up. it gets better.

[Coral Hind]

Great post Paul! Even though a tank may cycle rather quickly it can take years before that tank actually matures and becomes stable.

[YHSublime]

I think I finally have my answers. On the phone, will update at a PC.

[sachabballi reef]

You could put a whale shark in there as long as his head is in the water and you feed him worms. But it may be hard to clean that tank.

For any Noobs that may be accidently reading this thread. It is not your fault. None of it. No matter what you do, starting a tank from scratch is not easy and it will have things that seem to you like problems. They are not problems. All that stuff that happens to new tanks goes away in time. Yes, some of it is because you are getting more experience but the majority of it is because the bacteria in your tank are also getting more experience. It takes time, lots of time for them to get their act together and grow in the proportions where they will help you straighten out the "problems" and allow the tank to run smoothly. If I started a new tank tomorrow I would have all the problems with algae, cyano, ich and everything else that happens in all new tanks. Probably more than you. Don't give up. it gets better.

Extremely well said....bravo!!

 

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

 

 

[Jason Rhoads]

I think that one point which may be present here, but not expressly stated, is that fewer water changes does not mean neglect. I have never seen a tank that was neglected and looked good.

 

 

 

If you do decide to not do water changes you will have to dose (even those that advocate few WCs admit to dosing) if you want to grow coral. If you dig into what Paul is saying you will notice that he still does what amounts to a 10% monthly WC and doses for Ca and Alk. An aquarium is not a self-sustaining system. You have to add the building blocks if you want the organisms to survive and thrive. Also, you will have to export the waste products at some point. There is just no way around that (unless you like using detritus as your sand bed).

 

Edited June 12, 2013 by Jason Rhoads

[YHSublime]

I think that one point which may be present here, but not expressly stated, is that fewer water changes does not mean neglect. I have never seen a tank that was neglected and looked good.

 

 

If you do decide to not do water changes you will have to dose (even those that advocate few WCs admit to dosing) if you want to grow coral. If you dig into what Paul is saying you will notice that he still does what amounts to a 10% monthly WC and doses for Ca and Alk. An aquarium is not a self-sustaining system. You have to add the building blocks if you want the organisms to survive and thrive. Also, you will have to export the waste products at some point. There is just no way around that (unless you like using detritus as your sand bed).

Didn't even let me get to a desktop, Jason!