Tank is still cloudy

[AlanM]

Why wasn't the skimmer removing all of that bacteria or whatever it was making all of the cloudiness? I thought the point of running the bio pellet reactor as the feeder to the skimmer was that the skimmer would then pull out the bacteria and be a form of nitrate removal.

[Origami]

Don't toss the pellets, Scott. Dry them out, bag them and give them to me! I use the same pellets in my reactor.

[MBVette]

Ok they are still in a container. I'll get them clean and shoot you a message.

[Origami]

If you're coming to the next meeting (February 9), maybe I can just get them from you then? Where's the school anyway?

[MBVette]

Planning on going as of now. School is in south riding in rt 50

[basser9]

I dosed volka years ago when we would just dump it in until you got the hazy water

then cut back a little.

Carbon dosing works great but theres a real chance you fish will come down with bacterial

infections i lost a whole tank of fish to those infections.

The build up of toc/doc is the one thing that can wipe out a whole fish/coral system

and the fasted way to build DOC to a toxic level is to dose a carbon in any form.

Unless you are running a large ETSS or huge neddlewheel and have a large reactor filled with

high quailty carbon seems to me its not worth the trouble.

Plus slime algea loves a carbon source.....You could not pay me to add a carbon source to any tank.

Until there is a home test for DOC levels i firmly believe carbon dosing is bad for a tank.

Deep sandbeds and sulfur reactors for me.

Edited January 11, 2013 by basser9

[ridetheducati]

A STRONG skimmer is an absolute must. A tower of bacteria will put a lot of stress on a system. There are numerous accounts of people nuking their tank because they were not prepared to deal with excess bacteria.

 

Carbon dosing works extremely well and can strip a tank of nutrients if you do not feed the tank appropriately.

[AlanM]

Avast CS2, which is what I think he has, is supposed to be a strong skimmer, and they market the CS1 specifically with a biopellet reactor suggested in front of it.

 

In his case, the cloudiness seems like it effectively converting nutrient to bacteria, but it just wasn't being removed from the system like it was supposed to be, so you must be right on the cause, it must just take a much bigger skimmer needed to get that bacteria out. Maybe the recommended tank sizes should be adjusted way down if someone is carbon dosing with vodka or biopellet or whatever.

[yauger]

Dude I have a bubble king mini 200 on about 110 gallons and I still had issues with bio pellets.

[ridetheducati]

Dude I have a bubble king mini 200 on about 110 gallons and I still had issues with bio pellets.

 

The skimmer is just one element in the equation you may have had issues elsewhere. The mini is more than adequate for a 110 and carbon dosing.

[zygote2k]

Avast CS2, which is what I think he has, is supposed to be a strong skimmer, and they market the CS1 specifically with a biopellet reactor suggested in front of it.

 

In his case, the cloudiness seems like it effectively converting nutrient to bacteria, but it just wasn't being removed from the system like it was supposed to be, so you must be right on the cause, it must just take a much bigger skimmer needed to get that bacteria out. Maybe the recommended tank sizes should be adjusted way down if someone is carbon dosing with vodka or biopellet or whatever.

I use the CS1 and the Biopellet reactor on our fish QT system and have never had a cloudy tank syndrome. We even put 300 snails in which shot the ammonia up and it just made the bp's 'work' harder and make nasty disgusting smells from the skimmer.

I think maybe the OP's problem stems from the fact that I think he started the system running BP's initially instead of letting the tank cycle and mature on its own.

[MBVette]

Came into work today to do some painting around the building. And low and behold the tank is really cloudy, possibly worse that before. I did a 40 gallon water change on thursday, Im doing another one right now and will do another one Monday or Tuesday. Im at a complete of a loss at this point.

Edited January 12, 2013 by MBVette

[ridetheducati]

Ride it out. Keep the skimmer neck clean and running wet. Maximize oxygenation as much as possible.

[STEVE]

Max skimming and max flow! Are your parameters still at 0?

[MBVette]

Should I keep doing water changes or just let it go at this point?

[MBVette]

Didn't test today bc I wanted to finish painting and get home for the football game. I'll go in tomorrow morning and take a look again.

[basser9]

The sanjay test of DOC levels on his tank showed that the bubbleking[needlewheel] could not keep

up with the doc levels on his tank.

The downdraft beckett keep them in check.

There was no carbon dosing on his 300 gallon system yet the very large bubbleking just wasnt enough.

Without massive water changes the doc levels in his tank if he keep the bubbleking in a year would of

more then likely wiped out his tank.

This is the only real test of DOC levels and skimmers on a real reef tank and should give pause to all the

people running any then other then etss/becketts.

See that very large bubbleking should of been enough if you believe needlewheel skimmers are good skimmers.

I have run every type of skimmer there is and firmly believe any needlewheel is a piece of junk compared to a etss type skimmer.

READ the sanjay experiment then think about the tight wire your tanks doc levels may be on.....one miss of a water change...

forget to change your carbon.......dose carbon.....any one of these can be the tipping point to a fish/tank wipeout or red slime takeover.

On a side note that article tested a bubbleking mini and i wasnt impressed though you can agrue it wasnt a real world test.

On the subject of this tanks cloudy water i would run a very large reactor full of high quailty carbon like ROX from BRS.

And add another skimmer[2] or get a real one.

Edited January 12, 2013 by basser9

[ridetheducati]

Should I keep doing water changes or just let it go at this point?

 

I would stop doing water changes because the salt maybe providing additional food to the bacteria. Lean on that skimmer.

[zygote2k]

The sanjay test of DOC levels on his tank showed that the bubbleking[needlewheel] could not keep

up with the doc levels on his tank.

The downdraft beckett keep them in check.

There was no carbon dosing on his 300 gallon system yet the very large bubbleking just wasnt enough.

Without massive water changes the doc levels in his tank if he keep the bubbleking in a year would of

more then likely wiped out his tank.

This is the only real test of DOC levels and skimmers on a real reef tank and should give pause to all the

people running any then other then etss/becketts.

See that very large bubbleking should of been enough if you believe needlewheel skimmers are good skimmers.

I have run every type of skimmer there is and firmly believe any needlewheel is a piece of junk compared to a etss type skimmer.

READ the sanjay experiment then think about the tight wire your tanks doc levels may be on.....one miss of a water change...

forget to change your carbon.......dose carbon.....any one of these can be the tipping point to a fish/tank wipeout or red slime takeover.

On a side note that article tested a bubbleking mini and i wasnt impressed though you can agrue it wasnt a real world test.

On the subject of this tanks cloudy water i would run a very large reactor full of high quailty carbon like ROX from BRS.

And add another skimmer[2] or get a real one.

this doesn't make sense- how is it that tanks that don't use huge skimmers, frequently changed carbon, or frequent water changes do so well?

how about going back to the basics- DSB's, needle wheel skimmers, low sump flow, hi DT flow, strong lighting, lots of food?

Works for me and many others.

No snake oil needed.

[basser9]

The tipping point can happen with large fish populations that overtax your system.

The addition of a carbon source is another tipping point potentially.

You dont need a skimmer if you have a tank full of sand and rock and a few fish.

The sanjay doc experiment was on a fully stocked mixed reef with large fish populations.

The TOC produced in that size tank require a STRONG skimmer and it appears the needlewheel could not cut it.

The question is what happens if you add BIOPELLETS in a small system with a low flow skimmer[needlewheels]

it seems to me that since its easy to control nitrates with DSBs and sulfur reactors and since you cant test DOCs

in your tank why take the chance.

I think the idea that tanks that dont use strong skimming/frequent water changes/regular carbon do so well is not

the experience for most.

In my humble opinion people have been tricked by marketing in to believing there cone skimmer are so good that they have

woefully undersized skimmers for there systems that lf you dose carbon or try to add a good amount of fish it leads sadly

to so many people getting out because of algae issues or old tank syndrome ...etc

I think most people dont realize that the biopellets add quite abit to your DOC levels in your tank and there is no question that

DOCs at a certain level are toxic to corals.

There have been a few studies that showed some water changes raised total DOC levels in some reef tanks so keeping DOC levels

in check for some may be troublesome.

 

 

.

[ridetheducati]

The tipping point can happen with large fish populations that overtax your system.

The addition of a carbon source is another tipping point potentially.

You dont need a skimmer if you have a tank full of sand and rock and a few fish.

The sanjay doc experiment was on a fully stocked mixed reef with large fish populations.

The TOC produced in that size tank require a STRONG skimmer and it appears the needlewheel could not cut it.

The question is what happens if you add BIOPELLETS in a small system with a low flow skimmer[needlewheels]

it seems to me that since its easy to control nitrates with DSBs and sulfur reactors and since you cant test DOCs

in your tank why take the chance.

I think the idea that tanks that dont use strong skimming/frequent water changes/regular carbon do so well is not

the experience for most.

In my humble opinion people have been tricked by marketing in to believing there cone skimmer are so good that they have

woefully undersized skimmers for there systems that lf you dose carbon or try to add a good amount of fish it leads sadly

to so many people getting out because of algae issues or old tank syndrome ...etc

I think most people dont realize that the biopellets add quite abit to your DOC levels in your tank and there is no question that

DOCs at a certain level are toxic to corals.

There have been a few studies that showed some water changes raised total DOC levels in some reef tanks so keeping DOC levels

in check for some may be troublesome.

 

 

+1, applies to all forms of carbon dosing.

[Minh B.]

I assume you're only putting in RO/RODI water into your system? What's your salinity level? I have to disagree w/the salt contributing to bacteria bloom as a form of feed. We use salt as a natural preservative to prevent excessive growth of bacteria & fungus. Do you have access to a microscope? If not, I work at NIH and can do a bacterial count for you if you'd like. If its not bacteria and some other particle/life form (like a fungal/yeast outbreak), you can tell under the microscope if you have been trained. Bacteria will 'wiggle' non-stop. Yeast/fungus are often figure 8 bubble-shaped in liquid suspension (do to its very short cell cycle) and they are resistant to penicillin. And it would be helpful to compare your water to someone else's water.

[MBVette]

Yes I am using rodi and salinity is 1.025

[Minh B.]

I would find out what life form/particle you're dealing with and eliminate the food source. If you have a secondary tank, add your RODI water and salt mixture to 1.025 and left it go for a week with a vortech (you probably can afford to give up one of your 3 for the time being. Keep all parameters the same (e.g. temp, etc). If the salt is contaminated with a food source, you'll get a haze similar to the one you have in you DT. After a week of no haze, transfer one or all of your LR, and if it's cloudy after a week, the LR is the contributing food source. If no cloudiness in that tank, then the food source is in your DT. In that case, transfer your fish, dump out & clean out your DT and restart it. Once it's the same parameters as the secondary tank, you can add everything back it. Good luck.

[ridetheducati]

I have to disagree w/the salt contributing to bacteria bloom as a form of feed.

 

Are you attesting that elements within manufactured aquarium reef salt will not assist bacteria in populating? If so, name each salt brand and elements tested. The reef community would love to know.