Ryan Messick April 13, 2011 April 13, 2011 Background: Okay, I'm kind of freaking out here. I'm seeing signs of a total tank crash and I'm not sure how to fix it. Many of my stony corals appear to have what I think is White Tissue Necrosis (although admittedly, it's been some time since I've read up on the topic. Many stony corals have significantly reduced polyp extension, and the zoas/palys look funny. I'll try to lay out the story and my proposed action plan. First off, I've had moderate success with saltwater tanks for the last 2.5 years. I got my current 75 gallon tank a year ago and have done a reasonable job with upkeep. I have the following fish: yellow tang, hippo tang, midas blenny, two ocelarris clownfish, and a blue damselfish. Last fish addition was probably somewhere around a year ago. I have various SPS, LPS, zoas and palys. Observables: 1) 2-3 weeks ago my fire shrimp died. Inoticed about two weeks ago that I hadn't seen the fire shrimp in the last week or so. Didn't stress about it, these things happen, I've probably had him for 1.5 years 2) 1 week ago my RBTA went into seclusion -- he's somewhat new to the tank, probably been in the tank for about a month (I traded out my GBTA to my frag tank downstairs. which I've successfully kept for 2 years). 3) Two days ago: A medium sized piece of Montipora digitata began to sluff off the outer skin, exposing the white white skeleton underneath. The piece was about half dead, and I was pretty sure I couldn't save it, so I just took it out of the tank. 4) Today: Many stony corals have the same WTN-like issue. White spots appearing with 'skin' sluffing off: Orange monti cap, orange monti digi, bali green slimer. Zoas/palys are kind of retracted/closing up, with many closing the 'wrong way'. Tests: I ran two sets of tests: Round 1 (Red Sea): --------------- PH: 8.6 Ammonia: 0-0.25(!) this wasn't quite 0, but it wasn't quite 0.25. I've had <10 nitrates in my tank for years, and haven't tested for ammonia in a long, long time. Nitrite: inconclusive
Ryan Messick April 13, 2011 Author April 13, 2011 And here are some pictures of the corals: Monti cap: Acropora: Monti digi: Pocillipora(?): Palys: Yet the clowns continue to care for their eggs:
Chad April 13, 2011 April 13, 2011 What is your salinity? What are you using to measure it? I have seen similar symptoms caused by "salinity drift" over time. The ammonia is likely caused by the dieoff. I would do large (25-50% water changes), but only AFTER I verified both the means of measurement and accuracy (calibration). If it is off, don't step change it back, but lower over several days.
Ryan Messick April 13, 2011 Author April 13, 2011 Chad Thanks for the quick reply! Doh! Totally forgot to mention that. It's in between 1.025 and 1.026 measured with a refractometer. When I get the known "good" ro/di water from my friend I'll borrow his as well for a "2nd opinion". You mentioned salinity drift -- drifting high or low?
Jon Lazar April 13, 2011 April 13, 2011 A pH of 8.6 is awfully high. Do you dose something for alkalinity, and is it possible you've overdosed and boosted alkalinity too high? None of your corals appeared bleached, which is usally the first sign of too much light, and your lighting change isn't recent enough to cause this problem. Could you have a broken heater or powerhead releasing metal into the tank? If corals just have retracted polyps, I would leave them alone. If they're losing tissue, I would frag a piece off as insurance. Good luck!
Chad April 13, 2011 April 13, 2011 It can go either way, inverts are always affected sooner than fish with salinity. If you can get a hold of some calibration fluid, you can check your refractometer (checking two points is important)... I think you can find a recipe (by weight) to make your own from salt or you can probably find it at one of the LFSs. If not that, I would probably suspect source water or contamination (I don't think faulty tests is likely based on two tests). Get a solid TDS reading (where are you located?), there are several of us around that have TDS meters and can help you out. Also, getting good filters is probably a good idea. Air water ice is a WAMAS sponsor (well worth the $20, by the way and you will get a discount if you join) and is a great place to get new filters from.
Chad April 13, 2011 April 13, 2011 ^wow, Jon, I totally missed the 8.6. Do you have kH and calcium tests?
Der ABT April 13, 2011 April 13, 2011 i was gonna say alkalinity but do you have any battery operated anything, do you have a grounding probe? i had a single double A battery destroy most of my tank (80% death in corals or there abouts and it happened in a few hours) where are you located? update your profile and if your near arlington let me know id be happy to test your water and or your refractometer as i have some calibration fluid, if not ill bet someone near you would do the same do you run carbon or anything? may be a good idea to do so...or find some polypad..its alife saver
flowerseller April 13, 2011 April 13, 2011 pH of 8.6 is not so bad. No hint of alk# but was my first thought in concert with Mg.
Ryan Messick April 13, 2011 Author April 13, 2011 Jon, Chad, re: alkalinity Hmmm it may well be alkalinity -- my test kit ran out about a month ago. I'll grab a test kit and advise of results... Der Abt, Now that you mention it, I added two new (well used from CL) koralia 4 powerheads a week and a half ago. I'll unplug for now, and test when I can get my hands on a voltmeter (would that be the right way to test?) I'm in Dumfries, VA , I change carbon about every 2 weeks, and have never used polypad. -Ryan
bshriver April 13, 2011 April 13, 2011 I think running carbon is a good thing to do and a 25% water change with known good water could not hurt while you figure out what is happening.
flowerseller April 13, 2011 April 13, 2011 If you're getting new kits, also get an Mg kit if you do not have one
flowerseller April 13, 2011 April 13, 2011 I think running carbon is a good thing to do and a 25% water change with known good water could not hurt while you figure out what is happening. +1 while siphoning off as much detritus as possible. Do not add or replace any PO4 removers at this time.
Ryan Messick April 13, 2011 Author April 13, 2011 Okay, I'm back from my friends house -- and the answer is: alkalanity. Its higher than 18dKh. We tested using a kit where you added one drop for each dKh and we got all the way up to 18 before we stopped. So, he had some saltwater already mixed up, as do I so, I'm off to do a 25 gallon water change, followed by more alk testing. Thanks to all for your quick help and input! (Flowerseller -- I have a Mg test kit, but didn't think to use it. Once things die down, I'll see where that's at...)
epleeds April 13, 2011 April 13, 2011 18 alk. That is high. Just make sure you don't drop it too fast. It's almost as bad as having it super high or low from what I have heard.
Ryan Messick April 13, 2011 Author April 13, 2011 epleeds, Makes sense. I changed 25 Gallons, I'm guessing that I have around 85 gallons of water between the DT and sump, so that's almost a 30% water change. I'm guessing not too strong of a decrease... Either way, the water change is done. I'll test and do another tomorrow, size will depend on what readings I get, but I'm planning on changing around 15 gallons or so... -Ryan
hypertech April 13, 2011 April 13, 2011 (edited) Test it again. Is it even possible to gave alk that high? Edited April 13, 2011 by hypertech
John April 13, 2011 April 13, 2011 Now that you mention it, I added two new (well used from CL) koralia 4 powerheads a week and a half ago. I'll unplug for now, and test when I can get my hands on a voltmeter (would that be the right way to test?) Maybe these powerheads were used in a tank with copper?
treesprite April 13, 2011 April 13, 2011 Related to the question about your salinity - when was the last time you calibrated your refractometer? Another member had a major crashing and wasn't sure why... I went over there with my own refractometer and calibration fluid, and sure enough, she had such extremely high salinity that I'm surprised anything lived at all.
Origami April 13, 2011 April 13, 2011 Alk of 18 is very high. It's possible to get there, but I would first verify the test kit. At the very least, run an alk test on your the replacement (change) water to see if it's giving an acceptable reading. Check your calcium levels and magnesium levels, too. I've verify the accuracy of your refractometer while you're at it. It can't hurt. What is the source of your RO/DI? What is your water change regimen and how might it relate to these events?
Ryan Messick April 13, 2011 Author April 13, 2011 hypertech -- I believe whatever my alkalinity is, it's out of range of the test I was using. I tested again after the water change and it's still really high. I stopped adding drops after 15. So, it's higher than 15. I don't know how to describe it, but it just turns a different color blue (like a deep royal blue) unlike tanks with normal alk levels. For reference I tested my frag tank downstairs, and it came out to 10 dKh. My plan is to do 15-20 gallon water changes daily until I'm in a normal range... flowerseller -- I dose this: http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/store/products/calcium-alkalinity-magnesium/calcium-supplements-for-aquariums/1-gallon-bulk-calcium-chloride-for-aquariums.html and this: http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/store/products/calcium-alkalinity-magnesium/alkalinity-supplements-for-aquariums/1-gallon-bulk-sodium-bicarbonate-for-aquariums.html from Bulk Reef Supply. About 2 weeks ago I tested calcium and it was low (around 300-350), and so I stepped up from 2 TBS of both of the above daily to 3 TBS. John -- I doubt it. The guy I bought them from had a reef tank. treesprite -- haven't calibrated for a long time. Testing against RO/DI water showed 1.000. My refractometer showed my water to be 1.026, and my friends showed it to be 1.027, so I'm pretty confident that I'm in a reasonable salinity range. Thanks again to all for your input and questions as I try to wrestle things back to normalcy.
flowerseller April 13, 2011 April 13, 2011 I'd stop adding for now. Your levels will come down when you exchange water and by usage in the tank. In your case, when you resume additions, I'd keep 3 of the Ca additive but back down to 2 on the alk additive. I'd begin to include the Mg additive. All two parts are really three parts, it's just not mentioned that way because when we first started adding, Mg was largely over looked. Another option is to replace your two part with kalk for all top off and monitor Mg, adding as needed.
Coral Hind April 13, 2011 April 13, 2011 Ryan, Welcome to the boards and sorry the first time posting here was for an almost tank crash. Keep us posted on how the tank recovers.
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