Fragging is evil?

[Sikryd]

But he will only sell them as full colonies because fragging is evil.

 

Not really - but it is pretty ridiculous to sell 1/2 frags for $50-100 of wild colonies that you can get the whole thing at other club vendors and online for $75-$125

Edited January 10, 2010 by Sikryd

[Coral Hind]

Ridiculous for the buyer but great profits for the seller. Sell two 1/2" frags the day you get the colony in to pay for it and the rest of the colony is profit. No need to worry about losses.

[Sikryd]

Ridiculous for the buyer but great profits for the seller. Sell two 1/2" frags the day you get the colony in to pay for it and the rest of the colony is profit. No need to worry about losses.

 

I thought maybe I was the only one that noticed this and felt this way. Glad to see that someone else has noticed this trend.

The only way to quelch this trend is to be vocal about it, and put our money with the vendors that do support the club with regular pricing.

Edited January 10, 2010 by Sikryd

[Noobalicious]

Not really - but it is pretty ridiculous to sell 1/2 frags for $50-100 of wild colonies that you can get the whole thing at other club vendors and online for $75-$125

 

 

Ridiculous for the buyer but great profits for the seller. Sell two 1/2" frags the day you get the colony in to pay for it and the rest of the colony is profit. No need to worry about losses.

 

 

 

What is ridiculous is to keep rehashing the same issue.

 

If you don't like frags, then don't buy them.

 

Pretty sad when people keep crying about something that they aren't being forced to take part of.

[lhcorals]

What is ridiculous is to keep rehashing the same issue.

 

If you don't like frags, then don't buy them.

 

Pretty sad when people keep crying about something that they aren't being forced to take part of.

 

 

Its not about being forced to take part of. And its not about liking frags. Its about getting in a wild coral and not giving it time to adapt to aquarium life before being fraged.

[srd4080]

I know that I am a new guy here and whatever I say will be perceived as being spoken by some uneducated, uninformed aquarist, by some of the WAMAS leadership and moderators, but let it die out please. If I wanted to join PETA, I would have. I for one am not the guy who can afford to buy a large piece of coral and then find out that it dies when I put it in my tank because I am still learning the hobby. The fragging is evil comment was a joke, and was always intended to be a joke, (I happen to know the person that made the comment). I am sure that I will be suspended or threatened by some "wannabe" that doesn't want others to have an opinion, but sometimes your opinions and overall overbearing, bullying attempts on a bulletin board are not shared by everyone out here. I for one have used the "evil vendors" services and have recieved valuable information, much free stuff, and actually have made a friend or two at his place of business. If you don't want to go there, don't, I am sure that he will survive. This will probably be my one and only post here because I will get thrown out for stating my feelings and as a new guy here, that seems like a death sentence. Some folks need to get a life, I hope that you make it someday.

[davelin315]

I know that I am a new guy here and whatever I say will be perceived as being spoken by some uneducated, uninformed aquarist, by some of the WAMAS leadership and moderator wannabes, but let it die out please. If I wanted to join PETA, I would have. I for one am not the guy who can afford to buy a large piece of coral and then find out that it dies when I put it in my tank because I am still learning the hobby. The fragging is evil comment was a joke, and was always intended to be a joke, (I happen to know the person that made the comment). I am sure that I will be suspended or threatened by some "wannabe" that doesn't want others to have an opinion, but sometimes your opinions and overall overbearing, bullying attempts on a bulletin board are not shared by everyone out here. I for one have used the "evil vendors" services and have recieved valuable information, much free stuff, and actually have made a friend or two at his place of business. If you don't want to go there, don't, I am sure that he will survive. This will probably be my one and only post here because I will get thrown out for stating my feelings and as a new guy here, that seems like a death sentence. Some folks need to get a life, I hope that you make it someday.

Why so defensive? I don't believe that WAMAS has shown itself to be full of censorship or anything else. We try and be as restrained as possible and pretty much ask only that you refrain from making personal attacks, inciting fighting, or using inappropriate or abusive language. We encourage people on here to have an opinion and encourage them to debate. As a collective group, we have nothing against the "new guy" as we were all that person once as well. The only issue that I have with your post is when you say that "some folks need to get a life, I hope that you make it someday" and would ask that you refrain from taking it to that point. We are not Reef Central which has to be strict because their membership is from everywhere in the world, we're a small (or large depending on how you view it) club in which most people have or will meet each other at some point in time and where we go to each others' houses to buy, sell, trade, or socialize. That's the extent of it.

[srd4080]

My intent was not to be defensive, my intent was to show that there are other opinions and other ways to do business besides what a few of the longer termed members feel is the "correct" way. Some of us just don't care to see the constant "spearing" of others, that is all. Nothing more, nothing less. My get a life comment was meant in that context, that there is more to life than just their opinion. Sometimes the most intelligent things are never said... Whatever is said here, or in emails in general, is many times taken out of context which is why I am more of a take it up in person type of guy. Just my two cents and my way of saying that some of us aren't always interested in the opinions of the know it all's.

[flowerseller]

What is ridiculous is to keep rehashing the same issue.

 

If you don't like frags, then don't buy them.

 

Pretty sad when people keep crying about something that they aren't being forced to take part of.

 

 

Bingo!

 

BTW, what is "regular pricing" in this hobby anyway?

 

I don't know any vendors that would not sell a coral out of the bag if it was "pre" ordered or someone was in and wanted it then.

As far as adjusting to an aquarium, it's adjustment to "that" aquarium. Everyones is different so the process of "adjusting" starts over every time it is moved to another.

 

For plenty, it's a great resource to have this vendor, for other's it's not. Shop eleswhere.

 

I just wish I lived closer to all the shops.

[lhcorals]

My intent was not to be defensive, my intent was to show that there are other opinions and other ways to do business besides what a few of the longer termed members feel is the "correct" way. Some of us just don't care to see the constant "spearing" of others, that is all. Nothing more, nothing less. My get a life comment was meant in that context, that there is more to life than just their opinion. Sometimes the most intelligent things are never said... Whatever is said here, or in emails in general, is many times taken out of context which is why I am more of a take it up in person type of guy. Just my two cents and my way of saying that some of us aren't always interested in the opinions of the know it all's.

 

 

QUOTE (sdah0414 @ Jan 5 2010, 08:20 PM) *

But he will only sell them as full colonies because fragging is evil. rolleyes.gif

 

 

Rehashing started here. As you stated in your above comments everyone has a opinion, and there for can post it.

Again no one has said our view our correct, just our .02

[John]

I'm not quite sure if this thread was directed toward the Sean bashing Sonny thread, or if this thread was created about fellow members purchasing colonies and then fragging it to help fund their colony purchase. Maybe it would help to differentiate so people can express their opinions, or keep on ignoring this thread too.

 

Nonetheless, if you don't agree with certain practices, then don't support them...simple right?

[davelin315]

My intent was not to be defensive, my intent was to show that there are other opinions and other ways to do business besides what a few of the longer termed members feel is the "correct" way. Some of us just don't care to see the constant "spearing" of others, that is all. Nothing more, nothing less. My get a life comment was meant in that context, that there is more to life than just their opinion. Sometimes the most intelligent things are never said... Whatever is said here, or in emails in general, is many times taken out of context which is why I am more of a take it up in person type of guy. Just my two cents and my way of saying that some of us aren't always interested in the opinions of the know it all's.

Sorry, poor choice of words...

 

I understand your comments and appreciate that you shared them, but was curious as to why you felt you'd be sanctioned for making the comments, hence the defensive question. Hopefully we're not construed as immediately censoring any and all comments. I just got done with a PM to another member and told them that often a thread like this has as many positives as negatives as people come out to defend.

 

Also, I agree with your opinion to take it up in person if you have an issue.

 

I also agree with Chip, why bring it up again? Then again, I'm giving this thread life by responding...

[sdah0414]

As the person credited for rehashing the issue. (according to some) I feel I need to respond. The comment was made in Mr. Corals forum. What I find funny is that my off the cuff comment was then moved to the public forum strictly to (yet again) bash this vendor. It's crazy that people need to defend a paid vendor on this site. My views on this topic have been voiced countless times over. If you don't like him, go elsewhere. If you have some honest constructive comments, voice them. Otherwise we'd all appreciate it if you left the bashing elsewhere.

[Jan]

Obviously I don't get IT. Isn't everyone entitled to earn a living? Isn't every business person entitled to run their business the way they see fit? As long as it doesn't break any laws who cares? We all have the option to shop where ever we want. What is the outcome supposed to be? And to what end?

[Ryan S]

What is ridiculous is to keep rehashing the same issue.

 

If you don't like frags, then don't buy them.

 

Pretty sad when people keep crying about something that they aren't being forced to take part of.

 

x3

[lhcorals]

As the person credited for rehashing the issue. (according to some) I feel I need to respond. The comment was made in Mr. Corals forum. What I find funny is that my off the cuff comment was then moved to the public forum strictly to (yet again) bash this vendor. It's crazy that people need to defend a paid vendor on this site. My views on this topic have been voiced countless times over. If you don't like him, go elsewhere. If you have some honest constructive comments, voice them. Otherwise we'd all appreciate it if you left the bashing elsewhere.

 

 

I see no need to be getting upset in the first place. I think anyone's views are important on this forum, and we as individuals might think our views are constructive. We take threads off of many different forums, so why is this any different? We should and we do post the good and the bad. One persons good is another persons bad. We need to move on and let this die. As you said if you dont like a certain LFS dont go there.

[flowerseller]

QUOTE (sdah0414 @ Jan 5 2010, 08:20 PM) *

But he will only sell them as full colonies because fragging is evil. rolleyes.gif

 

 

Rehashing started here. As you stated in your above comments everyone has a opinion, and there for can post it.

Again no one has said our view our correct, just our .02

 

Bingo!

 

 

The whole purpose of this thread is to start a rehash of the same vendor. Like Lyn said, it was started with a quoted post in a different thread.

If you click on the boxed arrow in the right next to the quoted post, it brings up the thread and has been taken out context for the purpose of this thread.

 

Sure, more post time, but lets get to the bottom of it now so we can move on past this crap.

[SkiCurtis]

Obviously I don't get IT. Isn't everyone entitled to earn a living? Isn't every business person entitled to run their business the way they see fit? As long as it doesn't break any laws who cares? We all have the option to shop where ever we want. What is the outcome supposed to be? And to what end?

+1

It just confirms you cant please everyone. including cry babies!

[Sikryd]

I'm not going to go through and comment on certain parts of parts, it not that big of a deal guys.

 

The problem is the trend of some vendors (not ANYONE, or only ONE in particular) trying to sell wild caught frags for the same price as an aquacultured, proven frag that is KNOWN to hold its color, survivability, and is worth the expense.

 

If vendors want to charge the same price for a 1/2 frag as they bought the whole colony for, that is fine. It is their prerogative. Just as it is mine to point out that this isn't the best business practice, nor is it good for a new reefer that doesn't know that it probably won't not only hold its color, but will die as well.

This is a CLUB, and as such I like got most of my information here from fellow reefers. I am passing that information along.

 

Making money via a business is one thing, gouging customers is another.

 

The businesses that I support are the ones that charge a fair market value for a product with an increase in price to make a profit.

 

If vendors want to market these new RARE corals, I'm cool with it. Just do the work first. Cut it up, aquaculture it, and prove the color and livability in captivity.

 

I think it is GREAT to see the different views on this, and to start a dialog.

 

I don't think it is good that some people think it is alright to have a different point of view, then attack people personally for it. This is why I think a lot of people don't post any differing points of view. At least that is what I am told via pm or calls. of why some of the people on here that agree don't want to post on things like this.

Edited January 10, 2010 by Sikryd

[Sikryd]

This goes for all vendors that do this stuff. It is changing the hobby in a way that will make it UNAFFORDABLE to most people, unless you want to pay extravagant prices for everything.

 

I guess that is what is being lost here. The prices are set by US. If we continue let these things happen and go unnoticed, it can lead to a point where it will affect all of us.

I get pm's, or calls all the time talking to other reefers about this stuff all of the time. I talk to guys from NY-LA about the implications this can have and what it is doing to the hobby.

I am more of a make waves and elicit change kind of guy...Although, I also agree, that the bickering is never any good for anyone. Maybe some suggestions on better ways to improve the hobby and the current price trend would be a good idea. Or would that again ruffle too many feathers?

 

 

I think a good dialog on the current price trends in the hobby, ways to change them, and why they are in place, would be a good idea. Then everyone can chime in with their thoughts and feelings.

[zygote2k]

as per Sikryd: If vendors want to market these new RARE corals, I'm cool with it. Just do the work first. Cut it up, aquaculture it, and prove the color and livability in captivity.

I stand behind anyone that wants to make this commitment a reality. I believe this is the issue that everyone isn't stating. In order for this hobby to survive with all the upcoming legislation against coral harvesting and eco-politico-environmentalism, this is what vendors should start doing. There are several of us that do this already, I just wish the bigger stores would jump on too.

[Sikryd]

as per Sikryd: If vendors want to market these new RARE corals, I'm cool with it. Just do the work first. Cut it up, aquaculture it, and prove the color and livability in captivity.

I stand behind anyone that wants to make this commitment a reality. I believe this is the issue that everyone isn't stating. In order for this hobby to survive with all the upcoming legislation against coral harvesting and eco-politico-environmentalism, this is what vendors should start doing. There are several of us that do this already, I just wish the bigger stores would jump on too.

 

That is the whole issue to me.

 

I have NO PROBLEM paying big money for nice corals. I just don't think the vendors that are making huge profits from cutting up a wild colony is okay. I can see cutting them up and selling them for $15-$20 a frag to pay for the extra time to cut, glue, ect.

I don't even have a problem with selling the colony $175-$200, and still making a nice profit, since it is a nicer piece.

 

OR like has been stated, aquaculture them and get paid for the extra time, money, and RISK, by making big profits later - all while satisfying the eco-politio-enviromentalists

[davelin315]

In defense of the vendors, all of them, have you considered that the current state of the economy does not allow this? I'm all for conservation, but there are some items that you simply can't sit on for that long. My own personal preference is to buy something that has been sitting for awhile and shows signs of recovering from being collected, but I also have to admit that I love wild caught corals and the challenges of raising them. Here's my pessimistic personal point of view - hobbyists and aquaculture facilities in the Tropics are the ones who can afford to frag and grow out. Stores face the battle of making ends meet in order to be sustainable themselves. Have I bought freshly cut frags of wild caught colonies and then lost them later? Sure, many times, unfortunately. Would I prefer to buy an aquacultured or maricultured piece? Sure, if I can afford it. Bringing it up as just a question is one thing, but EVERYONE needs to take the time and effort to ensure that they're not perceived as attacking someone.

 

Again, my personal preference is to buy maricultured first, then aquacultured, but I have to say that wild caught catches my eye and isn't that what everything started off with originally? Perhaps, and this may not even be a good idea, it would be a good idea to post threads on what you bought and how it came into the trade and how it did. Kind of like SWAP without the swap part...

 

What's being debated here is really not much different than the debate between short swing and long term trading... the risk and reward of short swing is much greater in general than long term, so if you buy short swing, you've got to be prepared for a loss, if you buy long term, then you're reducing your risks. My own tank is a mix of short swing and long term, as are my portfolios!

[DaveS]

OR like has been stated, aquaculture them and get paid for the extra time, money, and RISK, by making big profits later - all while satisfying the eco-politio-enviromentalists

 

Not to pour gasoline on this but isn't this exactly what Tyree, ORA and a few others have done? But then others bash them for the prices and the whole naming thing....

[Sikryd]

Dave - I think the issue is far from wild, maricultured, and aquacultured.

 

The issue is as it relates to pricing.

 

Wild caught colony - $60-$120

Maricultured colony - $60-$120 (usually a little smaller colony)

Aquacultured colony - $60-$600

 

Wild caught fresh cut frag - $50-$150

 

I would agree the argument could be brought up about the financial climate maybe being a factor. If that was true though, you wouldn't see so many coral companies either expanding, getting new stores, new websites, ect. ect. ect. That and following any of the boards will show you that people are in fact spending big money on corals.

I think this has a lot more to do with spending more on corals and things we can enjoy at home vs. spending it on other things.

 

There may be businesses in the industry that are struggling. I think that has more to do with their business model and plan vs. the lack of money being spent on the hobby as a whole. The growth in the industry right now is phenomenal. At least that is the way I see it.

 

I have the same feelings regardless of whether I am friends with a vendor or not. I have a lot of friends that are vendors, but I don't pull punches with them either. I respect their decision as a business, and they respect mine as a consumer that isn't happy with the current course of the hobby with the pricing that is being attached.