Fragging is evil?

[Sikryd]

Not to pour gasoline on this but isn't this exactly what Tyree, ORA and a few others have done? But then others bash them for the prices and the whole naming thing....

 

I see that as another issue. Although I personally think they did a great thing for the hobby and they are part of the growth and expansion that had to happen to make the hobby bigger.

 

I have never bought from Tyree and don't ever plan to. I have seen some of the frags, and they are tiny.

 

ORA has done a great benefit to the hobby by bringing great looking corals to the masses, for decent prices with nice sized frags.

Some of these same vendors utilized that to their advantage and cut up ORA frags into 5-10 1/2 frags and then sold them for 1/2 of the cost of the whole frag.

Most newer reefers don't know that isn't normal, or right, and therefore got burned without even knowing it. If they knew that all ORA frags come on ORA plugs and are 1-3", then they are able to make an educated decision on whether to pay the money for the 1/2" frag.

I found this out from boards like this myself. I didn't know ORA came on a plug and was a pretty decent sized frag, until someone pointed it out to me.

 

 

These are the practices in the hobby that need to change in my personal opinion.

[lanman]

Bingo!

 

If you click on the boxed arrow in the right next to the quoted post, it brings up the thread and has been taken out context for the purpose of this thread.

 

Whoa... thanks so much for that info! I was totally confused - with NO idea where this quote came from.

 

Appears to me that it was a 'sarcastic' comment in its original context. i.e. - that the poster was mocking the fact that the same people who don't want corals fragged are going to be there buying frags.

 

I was starting to get a little defensive myself - I've been known to frag a coral here and there.

 

I prefer NOT to sell corals that haven't healed or encrusted yet, and when I do, I usually offer them at a discounted price, and let the buyer know I prefer to heal them up first. But I will sell them. Shame on me - but it's that, or ask someone to drive an hour again in a couple of weeks after it's 'ready'.

 

Good example - I cut 7 frags of purple monster. 2 of them died within a week, and the others are healed up now and just starting to encrust. If you had purchased one of the 2 deaders, you would be very unhappy.

 

bob

Edited January 10, 2010 by lanman

[Sikryd]

I think my intentions might be a little misconstrued by those who don't understand my intent.

 

I have spent a lot of time getting to know the people in this hobby, because that is what makes it for me. Being able to share the hobby with so many other people and making new friends along the way is what makes this even more enjoyable. I have driven all over the East Coast to visit people, check out their tanks, share ideas, buy/sell/trade frags. As well as going to MACNA, and joining MASNA. I also have visited people while I am out of state, just to say hey, check out their tank, and talk shop. I just did this out in California with a couple reefer guys I met online, as well as a few businesses.

I care deeply about the welfare of this hobby as well as the people in it.

 

The reason for pointing these things out is because I have talked to a LOT of people in the hobby about the different issues in the hobby today, and ways to solve them. The pricing issue is one of the biggest issues I have seen. As well, I have fought with it personally, especially on the collector level.

 

The reefing community is generally a tight knit group of people with a common interest. As such, it is pretty insulated. Well with the amount of money that has been brought into the hobby in the last 5 years, it is changing and there are a lot more issues than ever before.

If these issues continue to go on without a dialog started, then a solution that is amicable to everyone will never be sought out.

 

Just like any business, there are unscrupulous business practices everywhere. Although when those companies are identified, they either change if that is what is necessary, or they go to the way side. Or all the noise that is being made about those practices goes unnoticed and they continue.

 

Either way, I would like to be part of the solution to our hobbies issues. Part of that is identifying issues that I see as detrimental to the hobby in the long term.

 

By identifying these things on the local clubs, I am hoping to see if it is an issue at all, and if it is, how to solve it.

Edited January 10, 2010 by Sikryd

[lanman]

I'm not going to go through and comment on certain parts of parts, it not that big of a deal guys.

 

The problem is the trend of some vendors (not ANYONE, or only ONE in particular) trying to sell wild caught frags for the same price as an aquacultured, proven frag that is KNOWN to hold its color, survivability, and is worth the expense.

 

I'm wondering about your definition of wild-caught vs. aquacultured? Do you consider 'aquacultured in Fiji' to be wild-caught? I have purchased a couple of truly 'wild-captured' colonies, and they have proven to be HARD to keep alive for the first couple of generations. Truly heart-breakers. The most recent was purchased from a local vendor/WAMAS sponsor (not mrcoral) as a really LARGE frag - I mean like 8" multi-branched frag. I am down to about a total of 6" of coral now, after hacking and slashing to keep ahead of various problems (mostly STN from the base). But in this case, it's going to be worth it if I can keep it growing. It is an awesome coral - green with blue on the tips, and an uncommon species. I finally have one 1" frag that is growing very nicely, well encrusted, etc - and a couple of 2" frags that seem to have 'settled in'.

 

On the other hand - I purchased a frag of a frag that mrcoral received a few hours before I got there (green base, pink tips), that 'appeared' (actual origin unknown) to have been snipped right out of the ocean, which encrusted and started growing within a week. Sometimes you get lucky.

 

 

EDIT: Read further through the thread, and found where you differentiate between Wild-caught, Maricultured, and Aquacultured corals.

 

bob

Edited January 10, 2010 by lanman

[Sikryd]

Bob - I wasn't speaking about any particular vendor, nor any hobbyists.

Hobbyists, including me, sell frags. That is part of the hobby. It takes a lot of time, patience and money to take the risk, and buy wild stuff like you are saying. It pays off when it works out.

 

Vendors don't have to do all that if they choose to cut stuff up right as it comes in. Which leaves the reefer that purchases it with no reasonable guarantees.

I buy/sell/trade stuff all of the time. Some makes it, some doesn't, some morphs, ect. But it comes with a reasonable guarantee that it will survive in captivity, and retain its color.

 

Wild - Straight out of the ocean

Maricultured - Cut from a coral in the wild, then put into "raceways". Still 100% wild, just less impact on the reef.

Aquacultured - 6+ months in an aquarium

 

 

I guess it would be more simple to ask a question and see what people think?

 

What justifies cutting a $50 colony up and charging $100 per 1/2"?

 

I personally think that it is worth it to pay that much when the owner has spent the time, money, investment and risk. Then coloring that coral up and making sure it survives in captivity.

 

I feel like that is where the extra price is applicable. Not to just reward anyone who pulls in a box of corals, gets a nicer one out of the bunch, then makes 10x the profit on it.

I know guys that are doing this now, on the retail level, since the profit is still there. If you pay $150 for a coral, then cut it up 5-10x, and sell frags for $75-$100, the profit is still there.

 

I don't think the practice is right, personally.

 

Yeah I know, caveat emptor. But I also wonder what people will think down the road when they can't get ANY colonies for under $300 since it will balance out in the end, regardless of whether we want it to or not. If people continue to spend the crazy money, everyone will continue to charge more and make more profit. This includes the wholesalers, some of which are starting to do it.

Edited January 10, 2010 by Sikryd

[davelin315]

Ahh, but Chad, I think you've stated the problem - it's about business! It's nice when a businessman and a hobbyist can have the same exact principles and goals, but a business is a business and it's goal is to make money. WAMAS is not a business, it's a club. We have hobbyists and business people who exchange ideas and work together. This is truly the best combination. It doesn't always work out the way we'd like it, but we can hope that our close ties with our vendors benefits them, the hobby, and the ideals of reef aquarists everywhere (I'm feeling a bit beauty pagaentish right now, not that I'm wearing a swimsuit or an evening gown in heels, but I feel like I should say World Peace right about now).

[Sikryd]

Ahh, but Chad, I think you've stated the problem - it's about business! It's nice when a businessman and a hobbyist can have the same exact principles and goals, but a business is a business and it's goal is to make money. WAMAS is not a business, it's a club. We have hobbyists and business people who exchange ideas and work together. This is truly the best combination. It doesn't always work out the way we'd like it, but we can hope that our close ties with our vendors benefits them, the hobby, and the ideals of reef aquarists everywhere (I'm feeling a bit beauty pagaentish right now, not that I'm wearing a swimsuit or an evening gown in heels, but I feel like I should say World Peace right about now).

 

95% of the vendors out there have business practices that are "normal". Abnormal ones where the club and its member lose as a whole are the ones being discussed here.

 

I joined the club, for the club, not the vendors that don't support me as a member by giving me fair prices.

 

That is all that is being discussed.

 

I just pmed a local vendor about a coral colony that he posted pictures of - the price was $75. I was pretty surprised, happy, and wish I could make it down to pick it up.

I have always, and will always support small businesses. I will also continue to point out issues of the ones that have abnormal business practices where the only person that makes out is them.

 

The long term stability of an organization is made by the customers who support it. Supporting the customer base via fair business practices is essential.

At least in my opinion...

Edited January 10, 2010 by Sikryd

[Sikryd]

I can agree to disagree, but I don't see any other points of view. What makes it alright for a vendor to charge exorbitant prices for tiny frags of wild caught stuff.

 

That is what I was hoping to hear from people that don't agree with the view point of me pointing this stuff out.

 

If it was to support the club in some way, I guess that would make it worth paying the extra.

Edited January 10, 2010 by Sikryd

[sdah0414]

I guess I'm just dumb and can't see how I'm being ripped off. During the social, I spent $100. I left with a fist sized milli colony, a 15 polyp zoa frag, another frag of blue clove polyps and a maxima clam. Wait, now that I add it up I can totally see it...

 

Sonny, if you are reading this, I'm coming back for my cash!!!

[lanman]

I guess I'm just dumb and can't see how I'm being ripped off. During the social, I spent $100. I left with a fist sized milli colony, a 15 polyp zoa frag, another frag of blue clove polyps and a maxima clam. Wait, now that I add it up I can totally see it...

 

Sonny, if you are reading this, I'm coming back for my cash!!!

 

Okay... so you got a $50 milli colony, $25 worth of zoas, $25 worth of clove polyps, and a $60 clam for $100. What a rip! Go back and ask for another free frag.

 

Oh... never mind - did you eat some pizza? That's your freebie!

 

bob

[Sikryd]

I guess I'm just dumb and can't see how I'm being ripped off. During the social, I spent $100. I left with a fist sized milli colony, a 15 polyp zoa frag, another frag of blue clove polyps and a maxima clam. Wait, now that I add it up I can totally see it...

 

Sonny, if you are reading this, I'm coming back for my cash!!!

 

That's a GREAT Deal.

 

Although this isn't a specific vendor thread. I'm glad you had a great time and got lots of cool corals. Mr. Coral does get in some nice stuff.

 

This thread is about creating a dialog about something totally different though.

[Ryan S]

Okay... so you got a $50 milli colony, $25 worth of zoas, $25 worth of clove polyps, and a $60 clam for $100. What a rip! Go back and ask for another free frag.

 

Oh... never mind - did you eat some pizza? That's your freebie!

 

bob

 

The last time I was at Mr. Coral's, I spent about $200 on various sps and zoa frags, and I left with:

 

2 - $10 frags

2 - $15 frags

2 - $20 frags

2 - $25 frags

2 - $50 frags

4 - Free $50 frags

 

14 frags total - which breaks down to about $14 each.

 

I remember looking to my girlfriend as we were walking out of the store and telling her that I always feel like I am ripping him off when I shop at his store.

 

Many people simply can't afford to drop $100-$200 on a single colony, I know that I can't. And all 14 of those frags are doing great.

[sdah0414]

Not really - but it is pretty ridiculous to sell 1/2 frags for $50-100 of wild colonies that you can get the whole thing at other club vendors and online for $75-$125

 

 

Seeing as how this is the post that started it all, I took it to mean your intended purpose was to say he overcharged. I offered my experience as a counter-point.

 

Lanman - I didn't get any pizza either. I left before it got there. Now I'm even more mad.

[Ryan S]

That's a GREAT Deal.

 

Although this isn't a specific vendor thread. I'm glad you had a great time and got lots of cool corals. Mr. Coral does get in some nice stuff.

 

This thread is about creating a dialog about something totally different though.

 

Sikryd, here is how I see it. Maybe I don't understand what you're after.

 

A vendor buys a colony for $200 online. That vendor frags it 10 times and sells the frags for $50 each. The vendor also throws in a free $50 frag with each purchase. So the vendor gets $25*10=$250 total for the fragged up colony. That doesn't seem like the vendor is ripping anyone off to me?

 

Many people can't afford $200 colonies. $25-$50 is the max we can afford for a frag. So I am thankful we have vendors who will frag things for much cheaper than the colony would cost. There are vendors on this board whose frags start at $90. Why don't you go after them?

 

Again, the way I see it, the hobby is better off with fragging and the distribution amongst several tanks as opposed to a single colony going to a single tank. In my example above, had the colony gone to 1 tank alone, then only 1 person gets the benefit of said coral. Should their tank crash or they lose the coral, poof, gone forever. But when it's split up to 10 different tanks, well that's 10x the chance of survival. If 1 or 2 people have tank crashes, there are still 8 or 9 frags growing out there. If they all survive, in 1 year, everyone will have a colony. And that's 10 people who can frag again or trade their own frags to others and that single original colony will be in a couple dozen tanks before you know it. I guess I see that as a good thing for the hobby, not a bad thing.

 

Finally, I doubt anyone who bought a frag of said colony is unhappy with their purchase. I am willing to bet every single one of them is happy with the quality of the coral and the price.

Edited January 10, 2010 by Ryan S

[srd4080]

And I am a happy newbie in the hobby that gets to spend $10-20 per frag and see what works and what doesn't in my environment. I have lost a few, but they were due to my inexperience, not because they were unhealed frags. Quite the opposite, my tank is doing great, and all of the corals that I started with are frags. Less than a yr old and spreading all over.

[flowerseller]

What's the difference between selling small sps frags to someone and having a few die or selling a whole colony to someone and say, having their glass heater break and kill all their sps?

I have glass heaters that are 4-5 years old, I also have frags I got from a frag bin from the first social at the "unknown vendors store that are doing great.

I've had glass heaters break but I've also had frags die, both fresh cut and mounted and encrusted from all vendors and many hobbiests, even the best.

 

It's the same old dog chasing his tail thread.

[mrcoral.com]

Ok, I let this go on to long. I have sent Pm's to the Mods!!

 

Chad do you really think we are stupid?

 

You are trying to help the club?

 

You are trying to hurt Mrcoral 100%% I'm so tired of it.

 

You have been doing this on every Board you can to a point were I had to get legal advice.

 

Chad was banned from my store about a year 8 months ago.

 

I understand that he is bitter and want's to bash me.

 

Deal with it Chad get over it!! You have a new kid coming there more to life then coming after me.

 

Chad you talk a good game but you are the biggest _____ I have ever met.

 

If you ever have a issue with me you can pick up the phone and call me anytime.

[mrcoral.com]

It's the same old dog chasing his tail thread.

 

 

Chip you nail that right. Chad has been warned over and over about his issues with us. He mission is life is to hurt Mrcoral

 

I want to be clear here the unknown vendor is me!!

 

Mrcoral!! Let's get it all on the table!!

 

What is going on here is Chad knows he can't come after me directly or this post will be taken off so he seems like he want to help the board and not mention my name. Chad is talking about MRCORAL.

 

The only store in the area to have a Full scale farm weeks away. FUNNY!!! What are you going to say then Chad? Cultured corals are bad? The bottom line is we bring in what the customer want and buy. Chad told me about 8 months ago I would be out of business in a year and we don't do any business and people just trade in my parking lot and don't buy anything. We have 4 more months left Chad I hope we make it.

[Sikryd]

Sikryd, here is how I see it. Maybe I don't understand what you're after.

 

A vendor buys a colony for $200 online. That vendor frags it 10 times and sells the frags for $50 each. The vendor also throws in a free $50 frag with each purchase. So the vendor gets $25*10=$250 total for the fragged up colony. That doesn't seem like the vendor is ripping anyone off to me?

 

Many people can't afford $200 colonies. $25-$50 is the max we can afford for a frag. So I am thankful we have vendors who will frag things for much cheaper than the colony would cost. There are vendors on this board whose frags start at $90. Why don't you go after them?

 

Again, the way I see it, the hobby is better off with fragging and the distribution amongst several tanks as opposed to a single colony going to a single tank. In my example above, had the colony gone to 1 tank alone, then only 1 person gets the benefit of said coral. Should their tank crash or they lose the coral, poof, gone forever. But when it's split up to 10 different tanks, well that's 10x the chance of survival. If 1 or 2 people have tank crashes, there are still 8 or 9 frags growing out there. If they all survive, in 1 year, everyone will have a colony. And that's 10 people who can frag again or trade their own frags to others and that single original colony will be in a couple dozen tanks before you know it. I guess I see that as a good thing for the hobby, not a bad thing.

 

Finally, I doubt anyone who bought a frag of said colony is unhappy with their purchase. I am willing to bet every single one of them is happy with the quality of the coral and the price.

 

Vendors don't buy colonies for $200 - they wholesale from $20-$50.

 

Most vendors sell colonies for $50-$129, which includes a reasonable mark up.

 

 

Ok, I let this go on to long. I have sent Pm's to the Mods!!

 

Chad do you really think we are stupid?

 

You are trying to help the club?

 

You are trying to hurt Mrcoral 100%% I'm so tired of it.

 

You have been doing this on every Board you can to a point were I had to get legal advice.

 

Chad was banned from my store about a year 8 months ago.

 

I understand that he is bitter and want's to bash me.

 

Deal with it Chad get over it!! You have a new kid coming there more to life then coming after me.

 

Chad you talk a good game but you are the biggest _____ I have ever met.

 

If you ever have a issue with me you can pick up the phone and call me anytime.

 

Threatening me with legal repercussions for trying to discuss issues pertaining to the hobby today isn't very productive.

 

Maybe joining in the discussion about your personal experience and why things are the way they are today in the hobby would help people understand your businesses business practices.

 

I think it would be great to hear your point of view on the subject, instead of threatening and personal attacks on me for having a differing view than yours.

 

I have posted my feelings on many different forums concerning the same issues. There are many other vendors doing the same thing, some of which have realized that it isn't productive for the hobby or their business.

 

I have said nothing derogatory about anyone, and I expect the same respect.

 

Furthermore, I wasn't banned from anywhere except off of the reefbuzz forum, for bringing to light some issues I had with a vendor, which happens to be the owner - Mr. Coral.

Edited January 10, 2010 by Sikryd

[mrcoral.com]

LOL.

 

Here we go. You talk a good game Chad.

 

Keep going. Tell them how Sonny is a bad man and you are so good helping us all.

 

I will go get some popcorn.

 

Just tell the truth!! Tell them how you hate to see Mrcoral doing so well. Tell them Chad!! Stop ______ just do it.

 

The mods know people behind the scenes know what I have been threw with you. So don't act like you are trying to help us.

[Sikryd]

If you ever have a issue with me you can pick up the phone and call me anytime.

 

I would call if I wasn't threatened that it would be harassment.

 

I think it would be good to discuss things like we have done in the past.

 

I have nothing against your business at all. Sure some things can be different, just as with any. Although this post is the discussion is the general trend in the hobby and the affects of pricing on it.

 

Like I said, I have nothing against your business at all and think it would be good to talk about any issues and try to resolve them if you have any.

[Jan]

I've got about 15 posts from of a lot of banter about what? Wouldn't it be more productive to post something on the propogation thread of things to look for when purchasing corals?

 

-Newly fragged corals

pros cons and what to look for

 

-Wild caught corals

pros cons and what to look for

 

-Rare newly fragged corals

etc..

 

Than to continue like this? I still don't see the benefit of this thread. Where is the informatio for the newbie? where's the good experience? the bad experience? Where's the productive pro active part of any of this? It's going to explode!

[sdah0414]

I guess Sik that I'm just not seeing where your numbers are coming from. In his SPS tank the other day he had decent size colonies priced from $40 - 80. Obviously rare/hard to find corals are priced higher. You can get a standard acro colony for $60. Good luck getting an Aussie Echinata for that price. If your beef is with pricing in general, then I would expect to see posts like "How can they charge $2000 for a 2 eye frag of a chalice"

Edited January 10, 2010 by sdah0414

[gtipower]

LOL this is hilarious. Are people ACTUALLY going to keep bringing this up?

 

Maybe there's going to be a thread about why Safeway charges 3 bucks for a gallon of milk when they pay the farmers $0.50.

Or maybe we should start discussing how Ferrari's can be $400,000 when they spend little making it.

 

 

Look, if you're complaining about a store making too much money, why don't you go out there and complain about how Dell can sell a 4gb RAM card for $100 when it cost them $1.00. Or if you're even more ambitious, take on Microsoft and complain how they can sell licenses for their software when they only spent money to design one original copy.

 

A problem I see here is jealousy. People jealous that someone can actually make such a good profit. They rationalize their feelings by deeming it bad or immoral and thus have a reason to complain. It's pretty simple psychiatry. They try to post on the board to inform everyone about it, and feel better at the end of the day if they felt they prevented any future business. If you're such a moral and standup guy and want to fight the inequities of the business world, there's ALOT more to complain about than a small family owned type business.

 

Here's the bottom line: Coral value is in the eye of the beholder. If someone LOVES a basic Green Bay Packers zoa colony and wants to pay $200 for it, so be it. Some people don't think ANY chalice frags/colonies are worth their money, while others love it. Who are you to tell someone that what they are getting is not worth the money???

 

Do you not like private schools either? Do you go around telling parents they should send their kids to public school cause they are wasting their money??? Some people LOVE wild colonies because thats where the new unknown corals will come from. Some people love aquacultured stuff because they feel its safer and more likely to keep the color.

 

If you have had a reef tank for a month and haven't learned the risks involved yet, then you haven't done enough research. I think there's more than enough info out there to warn any newbies, that we don't need to use it as an excuse to keep bashing vendors' business practices so we can achieve our own personal vendettas.

[srd4080]

Well said gtipower, well said. Basically what I was trying to say in the beginning....just keep the bias to themselves.