Fragging is evil?

[flowerseller]

This type of thread is what hurts the hobby so you're not fooling anyone!

[mrcoral.com]

I agree 100%!!

 

 

Thanks Chip

[DaveS]

GO REDSKINS!!!

[mrcoral.com]

YES

[srd4080]

GO REDSKINS!!!

Hey Dave, since this thread has gone completely off topic anyway, I saw that you are a computer forensics guy. Do you prefer Encase or FTK and then we can bash whichever one of us disagrees.....

[DaveS]

Hey Dave, since this thread has gone completely off topic anyway, I saw that you are a computer forensics guy. Do you prefer Encase or FTK and then we can bash whichever one of us disagrees.....

 

I prefer BitFlare, a new computer forensics and e-discovery tool!

[srd4080]

I prefer BitFlare, a new computer forensics and e-discoveyr tool!

Ok, I saw your website. That looks like a good product. We use Encase where I am, but I am a government type and we go cheap....

[Sharkey18]

I watch crime scene forensics shows on TV.

 

Laura

[flowerseller]

I watch crime scene forensics shows on TV.

 

Laura

 

And one of the merit badges I teach in the boy scouts is fingerprinting.

 

Actually, that's kinda funny since this threads about fingerpointing.

[Jan]

Well said! TY

LOL this is hilarious. Are people ACTUALLY going to keep bringing this up?

 

Maybe there's going to be a thread about why Safeway charges 3 bucks for a gallon of milk when they pay the farmers $0.50.

Or maybe we should start discussing how Ferrari's can be $400,000 when they spend little making it.

 

 

Look, if you're complaining about a store making too much money, why don't you go out there and complain about how Dell can sell a 4gb RAM card for $100 when it cost them $1.00. Or if you're even more ambitious, take on Microsoft and complain how they can sell licenses for their software when they only spent money to design one original copy.

 

A problem I see here is jealousy. People jealous that someone can actually make such a good profit. They rationalize their feelings by deeming it bad or immoral and thus have a reason to complain. It's pretty simple psychiatry. They try to post on the board to inform everyone about it, and feel better at the end of the day if they felt they prevented any future business. If you're such a moral and standup guy and want to fight the inequities of the business world, there's ALOT more to complain about than a small family owned type business.

 

Here's the bottom line: Coral value is in the eye of the beholder. If someone LOVES a basic Green Bay Packers zoa colony and wants to pay $200 for it, so be it. Some people don't think ANY chalice frags/colonies are worth their money, while others love it. Who are you to tell someone that what they are getting is not worth the money???

 

Do you not like private schools either? Do you go around telling parents they should send their kids to public school cause they are wasting their money??? Some people LOVE wild colonies because thats where the new unknown corals will come from. Some people love aquacultured stuff because they feel its safer and more likely to keep the color.

 

If you have had a reef tank for a month and haven't learned the risks involved yet, then you haven't done enough research. I think there's more than enough info out there to warn any newbies, that we don't need to use it as an excuse to keep bashing vendors' business practices so we can achieve our own personal vendettas.

[Sikryd]

LOL

 

I guess there are more than a couple people that can't have a discussion without going off the deepend.

 

If everyone added a little to the discussion vs. adding nothing of substance, this actually might have went somewhere.

[sdah0414]

I fail to see how the posts (other than the last few where people got tired of the bs) added nothing of substance. You never responded to my post about where you got your numbers. You seemed to disregard any post that didn't agree with you.

[Sikryd]

I fail to see how the posts (other than the last few where people got tired of the bs) added nothing of substance. You never responded to my post about where you got your numbers. You seemed to disregard any post that didn't agree with you.

 

I didn't want to go to any specific vendor and copy their posts. That is not allowed here. Although I think you will be able to find them in the vendor section here, or I can send you to another forum via pm.

 

It's not a popularity contest to me. I don't mind being disliked for a differing opinion, obviously, or I wouldn't post this type of stuff. In the same token, I don't being wrong either.

 

I just think the current pricing schemes being utilized by some vendors in the hobby today is conducive to furthering the hobby in a good direction. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

This isn't on EVERYTHING, or every coral. This is specific to a few of the nicer wild colonies that are being cut up and sold for the same price as aquacultured high end corals.

 

I'd post a link to the Aussie Echinata on DD, but they sold all of them. They aquacultured it, let it heal, encrust, and then sold them for $100. I would like to see more of that in the hobby is all.

[sdah0414]

I can see where you might be coming from, but where you ran into issues is you copied my post from a particular vendors forum. This led everyone to believe you were attacking this vendor. (Which I still believe is so. Wrongly or not) It's perfectly ok to voice a different opinion. It's not ok (in my opinion) to bash a vendor for no real reason.

 

That being said, I don't know of any vendors locally or elsewhere that wouldn't frag a colony on request. The nicer wild caught colonies are in high demand, and thus fetch a higher price.

 

So is this how you see the responsibilities of the seller?

 

~ They should grab this new wild cut colony, let it sit in their tanks for months (which takes up valuable space for other corals), then once they deem it worthy of sale they frag it, let it heal for a couple of weeks to a month and then put it on sale.

 

If this is the case, this is almost exactly what he is planning on doing with his coral farm.

[Sikryd]

I can see where you might be coming from, but where you ran into issues is you copied my post from a particular vendors forum. This led everyone to believe you were attacking this vendor. (Which I still believe is so. Wrongly or not) It's perfectly ok to voice a different opinion. It's not ok (in my opinion) to bash a vendor for no real reason.

 

That being said, I don't know of any vendors locally or elsewhere that wouldn't frag a colony on request. The nicer wild caught colonies are in high demand, and thus fetch a higher price.

 

So is this how you see the responsibilities of the seller?

 

~ They should grab this new wild cut colony, let it sit in their tanks for months (which takes up valuable space for other corals), then once they deem it worthy of sale they frag it, let it heal for a couple of weeks to a month and then put it on sale.

 

If this is the case, this is almost exactly what he is planning on doing with his coral farm.

 

Exactly. If you are selling frags of wild stuff for a premium price, then I think vendors have a responsibility to at least give you the best product they can for the money.

 

The nicer wild colonies are marginally more expensive - ie. $129-$149 (depending on size). That is retail, which includes a good profit margin.

 

Anybody can buy all of these wild colonies, frag them up, and make a hefty profit. I think that is wrong when either a business does it, or a hobbyist.

 

Now if they are held onto, taking the risk of it losing color or dying, aquaculture it, then sell for a hefty margin, I see that as doing good business. This makes sure the customer is getting a product worthy of a hefty price tag, and also ensures that the vendor is making some extra money for the time and effort put into it.

 

Thats all. Not a big to-do. And definitely not isolated to one vendor. I have posted stuff like this on other forums as well. I have also talked to my buddies (in the coral business) about this practice, and a couple of them have switched over, or are in transition.

 

Wetthumbfrags is another vendor that is doing this, and has since changed up their model after there was some grumbling.

 

Its just like the My Miami. I can't believe it fetches $1500. But who can blame Jason for selling it for that much, especially after all the work and time that went into aquaculturing it for over a year. I stood behind that 100% whether it was a popular stance or not.

Put the time in, and get paid. Business is business, but bad business is just that.

[gtipower]

I didn't want to go to any specific vendor and copy their posts. That is not allowed here. Although I think you will be able to find them in the vendor section here, or I can send you to another forum via pm.

 

It's not a popularity contest to me. I don't mind being disliked for a differing opinion, obviously, or I wouldn't post this type of stuff. In the same token, I don't being wrong either.

 

I just think the current pricing schemes being utilized by some vendors in the hobby today is conducive to furthering the hobby in a good direction. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

This isn't on EVERYTHING, or every coral. This is specific to a few of the nicer wild colonies that are being cut up and sold for the same price as aquacultured high end corals.

 

I'd post a link to the Aussie Echinata on DD, but they sold all of them. They aquacultured it, let it heal, encrust, and then sold them for $100. I would like to see more of that in the hobby is all.

 

No one said it was a popularity contest. However, I agree with Steve, if you start a thread with a post from a vendors thread, no matter what your intentions were, everyone will assume you are specifically targeting MrCoral. And apparently, according to past history, there's a personal reason behind it as well. I don't really know what happened, but that's between you and him. Like Mr.Coral said, go and work it out man 2 man.

 

Pricing schemes to further the hobby??? Ok, what if vendors started selling wild colonies for $30 and frags for $5. ORA frags drop their prices to $10 and $20. Are you gonna start complaining that the stuff you already have is worth nothing now? Do you think it'll be good if someone starts to sell red hornet polyps for $10 buy it nows? I mean what is your goal really? To get more people involved into the hobby? or so more people will own better corals?

 

The way I see it, there is a premium to this hobby for a reason. Not any joe schmoe with no experience and research can buy a 10 gallon tank with/regular flourescent bulbs will go out and spend $100 on a RBTA and kill it. The price prevents eager parents to buy their 8 year old "Nemo's" just cause they want it and end up dying in a week. If nice corals and fish started becoming much cheaper, alot more people without the dedication will try it without putting any of the necessary effort to maintain it.

 

From my past conversations with store employees, there was a huge jump in saltwater right after the movie Finding Nemo. (I'm talking about the more basic stores like Petco or mall pet stores). Those people ended up setting up 10 gals with clownfish and either killing them or (this is completely true) parents returning tanks because their children flushed the poor clownfish down the toilet to "save" their clownfish and send them back to the ocean. After that, there was a big decline in marine sales.

 

Let's say Mr.Coral or any vendor drops their prices. Since he starts to lowball people (which other vendors have complained about ironically lol, but that's ANOTHER issue), all the other vendors drops their prices to compete. So all the stores starts making less money. Less profits means more stores closing. Less stores mean less corals. Less competition means prices starts to go higher. Then we're back to where we were 10 years ago. Then stores starts to open again and prices drop...you get the point.

 

From an environmental POV, cheaper corals might mean more reefers (which is supposed to be your goal I guess), which means more demand and more corals taken out of the reefs. More corals removed will mean more legislation to closed down the harvesting which means no more wild corals. THen the hobby will hit a dead end for awhile with the same corals going back and forth.

 

You say you sell your corals. How much do you sell them for? I doubt you sell 2 inch frags for $5. And do you know why you can charge whatever you charge for your frags? Because of the pricing from the stores. Will you complain that a store is selling things TOO cheap if a store starts selling frags of your top piece of coral for $5 a frag? I'm sure you wouldn't be too happy you spend all the effort growing it out and making sure it looks great.

 

 

 

And thanks Jan for the compliment!

[Sikryd]

No one said it was a popularity contest. However, I agree with Steve, if you start a thread with a post from a vendors thread, no matter what your intentions were, everyone will assume you are specifically targeting MrCoral. And apparently, according to past history, there's a personal reason behind it as well. I don't really know what happened, but that's between you and him. Like Mr.Coral said, go and work it out man 2 man.

 

Pricing schemes to further the hobby??? Ok, what if vendors started selling wild colonies for $30 and frags for $5. ORA frags drop their prices to $10 and $20. Are you gonna start complaining that the stuff you already have is worth nothing now? Do you think it'll be good if someone starts to sell red hornet polyps for $10 buy it nows? I mean what is your goal really? To get more people involved into the hobby? or so more people will own better corals?

 

The way I see it, there is a premium to this hobby for a reason. Not any joe schmoe with no experience and research can buy a 10 gallon tank with/regular flourescent bulbs will go out and spend $100 on a RBTA and kill it. The price prevents eager parents to buy their 8 year old "Nemo's" just cause they want it and end up dying in a week. If nice corals and fish started becoming much cheaper, alot more people without the dedication will try it without putting any of the necessary effort to maintain it.

 

From my past conversations with store employees, there was a huge jump in saltwater right after the movie Finding Nemo. (I'm talking about the more basic stores like Petco or mall pet stores). Those people ended up setting up 10 gals with clownfish and either killing them or (this is completely true) parents returning tanks because their children flushed the poor clownfish down the toilet to "save" their clownfish and send them back to the ocean. After that, there was a big decline in marine sales.

 

Let's say Mr.Coral or any vendor drops their prices. Since he starts to lowball people (which other vendors have complained about ironically lol, but that's ANOTHER issue), all the other vendors drops their prices to compete. So all the stores starts making less money. Less profits means more stores closing. Less stores mean less corals. Less competition means prices starts to go higher. Then we're back to where we were 10 years ago. Then stores starts to open again and prices drop...you get the point.

 

From an environmental POV, cheaper corals might mean more reefers (which is supposed to be your goal I guess), which means more demand and more corals taken out of the reefs. More corals removed will mean more legislation to closed down the harvesting which means no more wild corals. THen the hobby will hit a dead end for awhile with the same corals going back and forth.

 

You say you sell your corals. How much do you sell them for? I doubt you sell 2 inch frags for $5. And do you know why you can charge whatever you charge for your frags? Because of the pricing from the stores. Will you complain that a store is selling things TOO cheap if a store starts selling frags of your top piece of coral for $5 a frag? I'm sure you wouldn't be too happy you spend all the effort growing it out and making sure it looks great.

 

 

 

And thanks Jan for the compliment!

 

I agree, quoting someone from a vendors thread was definitely not the best way to start a conversation about this!

 

I think the issue has gotten a little off topic, or your reading a little more into what I am talking about.

 

I am speaking about the HIGH prices ie. $50-$150 per 1/2" corals, that are being fetched for the nicer looking wild stuff that is coming in now. This is very specific, and definitely not as involved as illustrated above.

[lanman]

I remember looking to my girlfriend as we were walking out of the store and telling her that I always feel like I am ripping him off when I shop at his store.

 

Excellent point... I was there one day when an Aussie shipment came in - AND he already had a chalice and an acan that I wanted REALLY bad, despite the price (my original reason for the trip). I spent quite a sum of money - who can resist aussie echinatas?

 

-BUT- - by the time I left, I had 5 free clams, and he owed me 9 free frags (I picked some up later, because I didn't have enough space in my car for all the corals and clams and free frags). I kind of felt the same way - spent a lot of bucks, but he gave me back about 2/3rd of it in freebies!

 

bob

[lanman]

I agree, quoting someone from a vendors thread was definitely not the best way to start a conversation about this!

 

I think the issue has gotten a little off topic, or your reading a little more into what I am talking about.

 

I am speaking about the HIGH prices ie. $50-$150 per 1/2" corals, that are being fetched for the nicer looking wild stuff that is coming in now. This is very specific, and definitely not as involved as illustrated above.

 

I agree with you on almost everything you've said.

 

But I don't blame the vendors for trying to get their money out of a coral shipment ASAP. I just happened to see an invoice at a LFS once upon a time. 10 assorted maricultured acropora colonies - $150. That is only about $15/colony - plus shipping, which probably doubles it. So call it $30 each. But then, the vendor has to pick out the 'brown, plain, ugly' ones, and hope they turn into something worthy. A couple of the colonies will probably die within a week, despite best efforts. He has to clean, dip, and care for the corals until they are sold. ... so, on those occasions when he receives a colony that is truly different and beautiful - he tries to get as much out of it as possible. And it doesn't seem so wrong. As long as the vendor is straight and above-board, and lets the customer know - "This coral just came in, it is wild-caught, or maricultured, and has traveled 8,000 miles in the last two weeks. Then I just chopped it into pieces. There is every possibility it might die before the week is out. It's up to you to decide if it is worth the cost and the risk."

 

One other thing to think about - when I get a wild or maricultured colony - the first thing I do is take a few frags, and put them in all my different systems. Sometimes, if the frag/colony is large enough, I will give a piece to someone else that has good luck with acro's. This gives the best chance that one or more pieces will survive. In a sense, a vendor that frags up his colony, spreads it out to 20 different tanks by selling the frags, and THEN also puts what's left of the colony in his own aquaculture faciity, is probably helping to ensure that this particular coral will survive somewhere. I know the one wild frag that I got from mrcoral a while back (?strawberry limeade?) - was small when he received it; he was only able to take 3 frags - and he put the 'base' that the frags came from at one end of his tanks in hope it would grow out. The one I purchased from Marine Scene (acropora Nobilis) - I have frags of it growing in 3 of my systems (not the display), and I'm glad I do, because the main 'colony' (it was just a giant frag) is long gone. I would feel terrible if I lost this coral completely, even though I can tell by the way it was cut that there's a 'mother colony' somewhere out in the ocean. It would still be lost to the hobby as far as I know.

 

So - there are always a lot of points of view to consider, and ways to look at things. I try to give everyone the benefit of the doubt. Until there's no doubt.

 

bob

[davelin315]

On that note, this thread has outlived it's usefulness. There were some valid points raised here about hobbyist philosophy and pricing but to each his own. Everyone is warned that the personal nature of this thread is NOT allowed here on WAMAS and there is NO attacking allowed, nor is there language intended to cause this kind of disagreement allowed. If you'd like to debate some of the valid points on this thread, feel free to open up another one, but if you want to continue fighting and throwing things back and forth, you've been warned. It's a shame that as a club we can get so polarized over what should be our goals.