Sikryd

Right on Ben - I fragged some the other day. I think I have 2-3 one polyp frags. Same thing - I'm sure we can trade for something. I was over at a buddies getting some pictures of his tank for him before he took it down (sprung a leak). And picked up a couple frags he has had for me for a while. The 2nd one is the Freddy Kruegers I gave him. They look pretty neat in his tank. Love this one - Actinic shot -

+1 AFAIK, I don't think there is anything you can do if it is indeed in the rock now, except for use it for a FOWLR tank. I would put some in a seperate container for a few days and test the water to see if it is in the rock vs. the current tank it is in.

LOL I guess there are more than a couple people that can't have a discussion without going off the deepend. If everyone added a little to the discussion vs. adding nothing of substance, this actually might have went somewhere.

I would call if I wasn't threatened that it would be harassment. I think it would be good to discuss things like we have done in the past. I have nothing against your business at all. Sure some things can be different, just as with any. Although this post is the discussion is the general trend in the hobby and the affects of pricing on it. Like I said, I have nothing against your business at all and think it would be good to talk about any issues and try to resolve them if you have any.

Vendors don't buy colonies for $200 - they wholesale from $20-$50. Most vendors sell colonies for $50-$129, which includes a reasonable mark up. Threatening me with legal repercussions for trying to discuss issues pertaining to the hobby today isn't very productive. Maybe joining in the discussion about your personal experience and why things are the way they are today in the hobby would help people understand your businesses business practices. I think it would be great to hear your point of view on the subject, instead of threatening and personal attacks on me for having a differing view than yours. I have posted my feelings on many different forums concerning the same issues. There are many other vendors doing the same thing, some of which have realized that it isn't productive for the hobby or their business. I have said nothing derogatory about anyone, and I expect the same respect. Furthermore, I wasn't banned from anywhere except off of the reefbuzz forum, for bringing to light some issues I had with a vendor, which happens to be the owner - Mr. Coral.

That's a GREAT Deal. Although this isn't a specific vendor thread. I'm glad you had a great time and got lots of cool corals. Mr. Coral does get in some nice stuff. This thread is about creating a dialog about something totally different though.

I can agree to disagree, but I don't see any other points of view. What makes it alright for a vendor to charge exorbitant prices for tiny frags of wild caught stuff. That is what I was hoping to hear from people that don't agree with the view point of me pointing this stuff out. If it was to support the club in some way, I guess that would make it worth paying the extra.

95% of the vendors out there have business practices that are "normal". Abnormal ones where the club and its member lose as a whole are the ones being discussed here. I joined the club, for the club, not the vendors that don't support me as a member by giving me fair prices. That is all that is being discussed. I just pmed a local vendor about a coral colony that he posted pictures of - the price was $75. I was pretty surprised, happy, and wish I could make it down to pick it up. I have always, and will always support small businesses. I will also continue to point out issues of the ones that have abnormal business practices where the only person that makes out is them. The long term stability of an organization is made by the customers who support it. Supporting the customer base via fair business practices is essential. At least in my opinion...

Bob - I wasn't speaking about any particular vendor, nor any hobbyists. Hobbyists, including me, sell frags. That is part of the hobby. It takes a lot of time, patience and money to take the risk, and buy wild stuff like you are saying. It pays off when it works out. Vendors don't have to do all that if they choose to cut stuff up right as it comes in. Which leaves the reefer that purchases it with no reasonable guarantees. I buy/sell/trade stuff all of the time. Some makes it, some doesn't, some morphs, ect. But it comes with a reasonable guarantee that it will survive in captivity, and retain its color. Wild - Straight out of the ocean Maricultured - Cut from a coral in the wild, then put into "raceways". Still 100% wild, just less impact on the reef. Aquacultured - 6+ months in an aquarium I guess it would be more simple to ask a question and see what people think? What justifies cutting a $50 colony up and charging $100 per 1/2"? I personally think that it is worth it to pay that much when the owner has spent the time, money, investment and risk. Then coloring that coral up and making sure it survives in captivity. I feel like that is where the extra price is applicable. Not to just reward anyone who pulls in a box of corals, gets a nicer one out of the bunch, then makes 10x the profit on it. I know guys that are doing this now, on the retail level, since the profit is still there. If you pay $150 for a coral, then cut it up 5-10x, and sell frags for $75-$100, the profit is still there. I don't think the practice is right, personally. Yeah I know, caveat emptor. But I also wonder what people will think down the road when they can't get ANY colonies for under $300 since it will balance out in the end, regardless of whether we want it to or not. If people continue to spend the crazy money, everyone will continue to charge more and make more profit. This includes the wholesalers, some of which are starting to do it.

I think my intentions might be a little misconstrued by those who don't understand my intent. I have spent a lot of time getting to know the people in this hobby, because that is what makes it for me. Being able to share the hobby with so many other people and making new friends along the way is what makes this even more enjoyable. I have driven all over the East Coast to visit people, check out their tanks, share ideas, buy/sell/trade frags. As well as going to MACNA, and joining MASNA. I also have visited people while I am out of state, just to say hey, check out their tank, and talk shop. I just did this out in California with a couple reefer guys I met online, as well as a few businesses. I care deeply about the welfare of this hobby as well as the people in it. The reason for pointing these things out is because I have talked to a LOT of people in the hobby about the different issues in the hobby today, and ways to solve them. The pricing issue is one of the biggest issues I have seen. As well, I have fought with it personally, especially on the collector level. The reefing community is generally a tight knit group of people with a common interest. As such, it is pretty insulated. Well with the amount of money that has been brought into the hobby in the last 5 years, it is changing and there are a lot more issues than ever before. If these issues continue to go on without a dialog started, then a solution that is amicable to everyone will never be sought out. Just like any business, there are unscrupulous business practices everywhere. Although when those companies are identified, they either change if that is what is necessary, or they go to the way side. Or all the noise that is being made about those practices goes unnoticed and they continue. Either way, I would like to be part of the solution to our hobbies issues. Part of that is identifying issues that I see as detrimental to the hobby in the long term. By identifying these things on the local clubs, I am hoping to see if it is an issue at all, and if it is, how to solve it.

I see that as another issue. Although I personally think they did a great thing for the hobby and they are part of the growth and expansion that had to happen to make the hobby bigger. I have never bought from Tyree and don't ever plan to. I have seen some of the frags, and they are tiny. ORA has done a great benefit to the hobby by bringing great looking corals to the masses, for decent prices with nice sized frags. Some of these same vendors utilized that to their advantage and cut up ORA frags into 5-10 1/2 frags and then sold them for 1/2 of the cost of the whole frag. Most newer reefers don't know that isn't normal, or right, and therefore got burned without even knowing it. If they knew that all ORA frags come on ORA plugs and are 1-3", then they are able to make an educated decision on whether to pay the money for the 1/2" frag. I found this out from boards like this myself. I didn't know ORA came on a plug and was a pretty decent sized frag, until someone pointed it out to me. These are the practices in the hobby that need to change in my personal opinion.

Dave - I think the issue is far from wild, maricultured, and aquacultured. The issue is as it relates to pricing. Wild caught colony - $60-$120 Maricultured colony - $60-$120 (usually a little smaller colony) Aquacultured colony - $60-$600 Wild caught fresh cut frag - $50-$150 I would agree the argument could be brought up about the financial climate maybe being a factor. If that was true though, you wouldn't see so many coral companies either expanding, getting new stores, new websites, ect. ect. ect. That and following any of the boards will show you that people are in fact spending big money on corals. I think this has a lot more to do with spending more on corals and things we can enjoy at home vs. spending it on other things. There may be businesses in the industry that are struggling. I think that has more to do with their business model and plan vs. the lack of money being spent on the hobby as a whole. The growth in the industry right now is phenomenal. At least that is the way I see it. I have the same feelings regardless of whether I am friends with a vendor or not. I have a lot of friends that are vendors, but I don't pull punches with them either. I respect their decision as a business, and they respect mine as a consumer that isn't happy with the current course of the hobby with the pricing that is being attached.

I feed mine, as do my clowns, and it hasn't split yet. It is HUGE though. I agree, I think they just grow bigger when they are happy. When they get too big, or are unhappy then they split, or take the dreaded walk-about.

AFAIK flatworm exit doesn't get rid of AEFW's. I may be wrong though.

Thankfully mine still hasn't moved in the last year. Mine seems to like it in the middle of the tank where there is flow, but less turbulent. Good luck with that. I love nem's and won't have a tank without one, but I'll be real bumbed if it takes a walk-about one of these days!

That is the whole issue to me. I have NO PROBLEM paying big money for nice corals. I just don't think the vendors that are making huge profits from cutting up a wild colony is okay. I can see cutting them up and selling them for $15-$20 a frag to pay for the extra time to cut, glue, ect. I don't even have a problem with selling the colony $175-$200, and still making a nice profit, since it is a nicer piece. OR like has been stated, aquaculture them and get paid for the extra time, money, and RISK, by making big profits later - all while satisfying the eco-politio-enviromentalists

Revive is probably your best bet. It will take care of the flatworms in 10-15min dips. You'll have to do it every 3-4 days for about 5 weeks to make sure you get all of the unhatched eggs. Lanman has a thread on here about how he took care of them. I would also remember to rinse everything off in some old "fresh" tank water prior to putting them back in the tank since you have a small tank (6gal). Otherwise your chemistry could get pretty jacked up.

I think that is the most often overlooked thing. Once it is covered in coral, nobody really notices the rock work. Now try to explain to your non-reefing friends that you spent 3+ hours organizing rocks, and they might look at you funny!

Reef crest (yellow) - anti-synced with the 2nd one (orange)

This goes for all vendors that do this stuff. It is changing the hobby in a way that will make it UNAFFORDABLE to most people, unless you want to pay extravagant prices for everything. I guess that is what is being lost here. The prices are set by US. If we continue let these things happen and go unnoticed, it can lead to a point where it will affect all of us. I get pm's, or calls all the time talking to other reefers about this stuff all of the time. I talk to guys from NY-LA about the implications this can have and what it is doing to the hobby. I am more of a make waves and elicit change kind of guy...Although, I also agree, that the bickering is never any good for anyone. Maybe some suggestions on better ways to improve the hobby and the current price trend would be a good idea. Or would that again ruffle too many feathers? I think a good dialog on the current price trends in the hobby, ways to change them, and why they are in place, would be a good idea. Then everyone can chime in with their thoughts and feelings.

I'm not going to go through and comment on certain parts of parts, it not that big of a deal guys. The problem is the trend of some vendors (not ANYONE, or only ONE in particular) trying to sell wild caught frags for the same price as an aquacultured, proven frag that is KNOWN to hold its color, survivability, and is worth the expense. If vendors want to charge the same price for a 1/2 frag as they bought the whole colony for, that is fine. It is their prerogative. Just as it is mine to point out that this isn't the best business practice, nor is it good for a new reefer that doesn't know that it probably won't not only hold its color, but will die as well. This is a CLUB, and as such I like got most of my information here from fellow reefers. I am passing that information along. Making money via a business is one thing, gouging customers is another. The businesses that I support are the ones that charge a fair market value for a product with an increase in price to make a profit. If vendors want to market these new RARE corals, I'm cool with it. Just do the work first. Cut it up, aquaculture it, and prove the color and livability in captivity. I think it is GREAT to see the different views on this, and to start a dialog. I don't think it is good that some people think it is alright to have a different point of view, then attack people personally for it. This is why I think a lot of people don't post any differing points of view. At least that is what I am told via pm or calls. of why some of the people on here that agree don't want to post on things like this.

Dave - looking good. I agree though, it kind of seems like a rock "wall". Maybe opening up a hole in the back, or raising some edges will give it a little more contour. I HATE aquascaping - it is a nightmare - so its easy to give advice when you look at pictures! Putting it into action is a whole different ball game though - as we all know

I thought maybe I was the only one that noticed this and felt this way. Glad to see that someone else has noticed this trend. The only way to quelch this trend is to be vocal about it, and put our money with the vendors that do support the club with regular pricing.

Not really - but it is pretty ridiculous to sell 1/2 frags for $50-100 of wild colonies that you can get the whole thing at other club vendors and online for $75-$125

300w for 100g seems like it would be perfect, unless you keep your house cooler than 70. I would double check to make sure it is actually coming on.