Our New Living Room Mixed Reef

[WheresTheReef]

Looking great. It’s hard to tell from the pictures. How easy is it to access the return pump and skimmer (remove/reinstall)? I always like to consider ease of maintenance.

[tpallas]

Got started on the plumbing. There’s only one overflow hole and one return line, which comes up through the overflow. This was done to allow me to push the tank up against the wall as close as possible. In retrospect I would have got a 3rd hole for an emergency drain, but too late. The sump can absorb a lot of water in case of overflow and I will also be using several leak detectors to shut down the tank should something happen. 
 

First, the return plumbing is shaped as a tee with the main line connected via soft tubing to two loc line assemblies. Here’s the layout:

 

 

The line is 3/4” and the loc line splits to two 1/2” nozzle lines.

 

The tee assembly is glued directly into the bulkhead which is in the bottom of the overflow.

 

[tpallas]

3 minutes ago, WheresTheReef said:

Looking great. It’s hard to tell from the pictures. How easy is it to access the return pump and skimmer (remove/reinstall)? I always like to consider ease of maintenance.

Thank you. Skimmer is easy. Return pump is less so, requires some maneuvering, but it does come out from the front. Kind of a necessary trade off trying to fit so much in the small space.

[tpallas]

Here’s what the loc line assembly looks like mounted:

 

 

And the tee assembly mounted with vinyl tube connecting:

 

[tpallas]

The overflow line is a Durso pipe I ordered from the man himself. I also ordered a screen unit as I want some insurance for only having one overflow line. 
 

The white too piece is visible through the overflow teeth, so I used black gloss Krylon fusion to paint the top black.

 

 

 

It will require drilling a hole through the top cap to minimize noise and gurgling when I get the tank running.

[tpallas]

Question on heaters...I've relied on Eheim Jagers for a long long time. With the new titanium heaters...what's the draw? I get the metal is safer than glass but I've never had issue with glass. I also like the redundancy of a thermostat in the heater, backed up by the controller. My interest is piqued by the BRS titanium heaters, but I'm not a huge fan of the idea of the Apex temp probe being a single point of failure on temp control. Am I thinking about this wrong?

[howaboutme]

9 hours ago, tpallas said:

Perfect! Does it work pretty flawlessly?

 

 

My first real test was last night. What I found out is that if you are down in the stand for a period of time, it will not sense your minor movements and it will turn off abruptly. Then getting it to turn back on with aggressive hand motions is not that easy. I guess it's just not that sensitive. What I did is that in those instances where I know I'll be in for a while, I will just turn the light on (override motion detection). Then when I'm done, I will flip it back to motion detection mode. The light is very bright. Can't comment on how long it will last, especially w/ a sump, but it's a very minor risk because it doesn't cost an arm and a leg.

 

Nice build, by the way!

[tpallas]

On 1/29/2021 at 8:01 AM, howaboutme said:

 

My first real test was last night. What I found out is that if you are down in the stand for a period of time, it will not sense your minor movements and it will turn off abruptly. Then getting it to turn back on with aggressive hand motions is not that easy. I guess it's just not that sensitive. What I did is that in those instances where I know I'll be in for a while, I will just turn the light on (override motion detection). Then when I'm done, I will flip it back to motion detection mode. The light is very bright. Can't comment on how long it will last, especially w/ a sump, but it's a very minor risk because it doesn't cost an arm and a leg.

 

Nice build, by the way!

 

That's what I was wondering about....I think I'm going to give the below combo a try. The downside is it will only be on one door, not sure how I'd hook up two light switches to one light unit, and it is more expensive. I'll post an update on how it does. 

 

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01LZBVIKA/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01F2MKP78/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

[tpallas]

Plumbing just about wrapped up! Working this afternoon to fill with tap water to do a leak test.

 

 

 

[howaboutme]

5 hours ago, tpallas said:

 

That's what I was wondering about....I think I'm going to give the below combo a try. The downside is it will only be on one door, not sure how I'd hook up two light switches to one light unit, and it is more expensive. I'll post an update on how it does. 

 

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01LZBVIKA/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01F2MKP78/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

This looks promising! Keep posted.

[tpallas]

Ok so I filled up with tap water and running a leak test. Good news, no leaks. Bad news, I’m getting a lot of noise in the system. I drilled a 5/32” hole on top. No noise from the overflow itself, but where the water drains in the sump is very noisy. A run a similar setup on my smaller tank without this issue. Anyone knows what causes it?

 

Also the water level comes up fairly high, not sure if I drilled too big a hole.

 

Edited January 30, 2021 by tpallas

[AlanM]

it may quiet once you get some slime in it, but it may be just the air in the lines causing a lot of turbulence and bubbles at the bottom. 

 

If you plug the hole partially with a finger or some tape does it move faster?  Eventually as it gets small enough it will turn into a siphon and then will flush the box, so maybe if you made the hole big enough to put a small valve in it to make it tunable?

 

Rob Gunnett (zygote2k) advocated using a "Drain box" at the bottom of a Durso drain to avoid the noise and salt spray caused by having a drain full of air bubbles.  It's essentially an acrylic box with three sides and a top, but no bottom.  The top has a hole drilled to the outer diameter of your drain line so it pressure fits in.  The fourth side of the box just goes loosely against the sump wall.  The idea is that the bubbles pop in that drain box and the noise and spray is held in, but the water can go freely out the bottom.  It isn't air tight, so the bubbles don't build up in it.

 

I'll try to find a picture of it.  I had one on a tank in an elementary school and it made a huge difference.

[AlanM]

Found it:

 

 

This one has two pipes going up.

 

It's possible that just putting a media bag on the end would quiet it too.

 

One other possibility is that your barb fittings to flexible hose are causing turbulence which makes the bubbles noisier by making the flow less laminar.  It looks like they're moving around in there quite a bit.  

 

could you use spaflex and PVC external couplers instead?

 

https://www.lowes.com/pd/EZ-FLO-1-in-Inner-Diameter-x-1-ft-PVC-Spa-Flex-Hose/1000365071

 

[tpallas]

On 1/30/2021 at 4:58 PM, AlanM said:

Found it:

 

 

This one has two pipes going up.

 

It's possible that just putting a media bag on the end would quiet it too.

 

One other possibility is that your barb fittings to flexible hose are causing turbulence which makes the bubbles noisier by making the flow less laminar.  It looks like they're moving around in there quite a bit.  

 

could you use spaflex and PVC external couplers instead?

 

https://www.lowes.com/pd/EZ-FLO-1-in-Inner-Diameter-x-1-ft-PVC-Spa-Flex-Hose/1000365071

 

 

Thanks Alan! Your recommendation has had me researching all day. I've come to a couple of conclusions. One, the noise situation will be less than perfect unless I switch over to a Herbie system. It's feasible with my setup as the overflow is drilled with 3/4" and 1" holes. The 1" currently has the durso, I could use the 3/4" for the siphon line, will it handle a 70g tank and roughly 25g sump? Or, I could turn the 1" into the siphon. I'd run the 3/4" return over the back. I had the return come up through the bottom of the tank so I could push the tank up against the wall. However I've left enough room in the final positioning so that a 3/4" could fit.

 

Second, I did find something similar to what you are suggesting, a reserve durso. It's basically a durso setup so the water comes under the waterline, and has a split tube coming up for air to escape, and water to go down. I built one today and tried it out. It did do a good job of breaking up the noise of the water entering the sump, up to a certain flow rate. The residual noise is that of water moving down the hose, which is really tolerable once you close the cabinet doors and really isn't louder than pumps or fans. So all in all I think I have a decent enough turnover rate and kept the noise in check. 

 

Now down the line, I do have the option of converting to Herbie, which at some point I probably will. It's just at this point I'd be too butthurt to rip everything up now. Luckily the tank is such that I could do that conversion in situ.

[tpallas]

Here’s the reverse durso:

 

 

Put in 2x 150w Eheim Jager heaters. Space is at an absolute premium in this sump and that’s the only place 13” heaters will fit in the main sump. And this interferes with where the media reactor pump will go. So I’ll put the heaters in the refugium once the tubing comes in to get that connected to the sump. 
 

 

The sand arrived today as well:

 

 

Edited February 1, 2021 by tpallas

[AlanM]

I like that reverse durso.  I bet once you have the skimmer going you're not going to hear it at all.

 

If you want to convert to a herbie at some point the 3/4" will probably handle it depending on how much you're pushing in with your return pump.  

 

Schedule 40 3/4" PVC has an interior diameter of .804 inches, cross sectional area of 0.5 square inches.  Assuming you have around 48 inches from the water level in your sump to the height of the water in your overflow box with a full siphon (Bernoulli's law) you'll have water moving down it at Sqrt(2*g*48) where g=386 inches/sec/sec or 192 inches per second. 

 

Since your pipe is 0.5 square inches you can get a maximum of 96 cubic inches per second or a maximum of 1433 gallons per hour. This assumes you have 48 inches of pipe height, but that's just a guess.   You'll get less than that because of wall friction and fittings.  Not sure how much less with those barbed fittings, but they do narrow the cross sectional area a bit.  It's probably fine because you'd be putting a valve at the bottom of the herbie anyway and 1400gph seems extreme for 100g total water volume.  

 

As you know, one big advantage of herbie is that it's quiet.  Other advantage is that you have that emergency drain as a safety.

[tpallas]

20 hours ago, AlanM said:

I like that reverse durso.  I bet once you have the skimmer going you're not going to hear it at all.

 

If you want to convert to a herbie at some point the 3/4" will probably handle it depending on how much you're pushing in with your return pump.  

 

Schedule 40 3/4" PVC has an interior diameter of .804 inches, cross sectional area of 0.5 square inches.  Assuming you have around 48 inches from the water level in your sump to the height of the water in your overflow box with a full siphon (Bernoulli's law) you'll have water moving down it at Sqrt(2*g*48) where g=386 inches/sec/sec or 192 inches per second. 

 

Since your pipe is 0.5 square inches you can get a maximum of 96 cubic inches per second or a maximum of 1433 gallons per hour. This assumes you have 48 inches of pipe height, but that's just a guess.   You'll get less than that because of wall friction and fittings.  Not sure how much less with those barbed fittings, but they do narrow the cross sectional area a bit.  It's probably fine because you'd be putting a valve at the bottom of the herbie anyway and 1400gph seems extreme for 100g total water volume.  

 

As you know, one big advantage of herbie is that it's quiet.  Other advantage is that you have that emergency drain as a safety.

 

Thanks Alan! I agree, I'd like to target 300-500 GPH so it's great that the 3/4" would handle it. The COR 15 has a maximum of 1500 GPH....taking a look at my plumbing, I think it would be an easy change to install a PVC return line with a gate valve and barb. Chop the 3/4" return line and put a strainer on it. Then just run vinyl from the pump to the existing tee. It's minimally invasive and not something I'd have to tear the tank down to do. I will probably do this between now and wrapping up the initial cycling, about 5 weeks from now.

[tpallas]

Refugium light came in. I got a Nicrew light off Amazon for $30. I normally like really high quality gear but for this application the light is perfect, and it’s cheap so longevity is much less of an issue. I use Nicrew lights on my smaller 2.5g tanks and for the buck they do really well. Also the profile is exactly what I want, close to the water line, complete coverage and unobtrusive. 
 

 

 

 

[tpallas]

Here’s how the reactor manifold goes together, and the whole assembly goes into place. Despite how cramped everything is it all disassembles easily for removal while the sump is in place. 

 

 

Also got a label maker and started labeling things:

 

 

My favorite feature of this sump is the mount for the Neptune ATO sensor. It’s shocking just how bad the included magnet is, I’m surprised Neptune did that. This way I won’t have it falling down all the time.

 

 

Edited February 5, 2021 by tpallas

[tpallas]

2 nights of work to get the cabinet lighting in place. This system works very well. The only drawback is that the switch is designed to be used on one door. This actually turned out OK because the right hand side of the sump is where all of my equipment is, and the left side is where the refugium is. The switch is mounted in the center upright brace, and is triggered by a magnet that is mounted on the door. When the magnet moves away, the light turns on. There are multiple color temperature options, I believe this one is 4.2k which is a really good color for this application.

 

 

 

 

Here’s a video of it in action:

 

 

Edited February 5, 2021 by tpallas

[howaboutme]

Very nice! Is there a time out or will it stay on until both magnets are together?

[tpallas]

1 hour ago, howaboutme said:

Very nice! Is there a time out or will it stay on until both magnets are together?

Yeah it stays on the whole time which is really nice. 

[tpallas]

A few musings on this setup after another TB12 victory....

 

Did some experimenting on flow. I've got 2 existing MP10 QDs that I'll be moving to this tank, so I set them up to test. For some reason I'm fixated on having a standing wave + supplemental random/high energy flow. I've tested the MP10s and the standing wave generates, but is not impressive - perhaps +/- .5". I'm trending towards 2x MP40s to generate a larger standing wave and the MP10s to provide the random flow. I think, on their own, the MP10s could provide enough flow for the tank but the wave effect is something we really want. 

 

The second thing I've been considering is the refugium. I'd like to use it as something more than just a chaeto chamber. I'm moving more towards a lagoon type fuge with soft corals and some macroalages. I'm also seriously looking at Florida live rock and sand for the fuge. Up side is massive biodiversity to the tank - downside is unwanted species. From my research (read: reading Reef2Reef posts) it seems that the biggest offenders are gorilla crabs and mantis shrimps. If I confine the rock to my fuge, then this should be easy to correct while populating the rest of the tank with the desirables. KB Aquatics seems to be the place to get rock from, live sand is less clear but Gulf Live Rock offers it (they have horseshoe crabs in their pics which I'd hope not to get). In either case the point is to not get something that would endanger SPS but it looks as though AEFW and the like are not a Florida species to be concerned about....I think.  It does harken me back to the old days of reefing when it was exciting to see what life the rock brought in. 

 

Lastly we should have the tank filled with water this week. The holdup has been the rockwork itself. I am painting it with a pigment solution (paint?) that makes it purple. Anyways I ran out of my original jar the other week and ordered a second, it is taking some time to arrive and should be here Tuesday. Once that happens I will paint the rock, give it 24 hours to cure, then place in the aquarium with sand and fill with RO/DI water. More details on that once it happens.

[AlanM]

i always wondered if purple pvc primer would work and look good and be safe on dry rocks.  The solvent is very highly volatile, so I'm sure it wouldn't stick around, and whatever the pigment is, it seems to stain clothes very effectively, from my experience.

[YHSublime]

If you're going to keep the rock contained to your refugium, just let it roll and don't worry about what comes in on it. 

 

Something that Alan did and I slightly did for my nano, was add as much biodiversity into the tank at the beginning. I think Rob gave Alan a container of sand and miracle mud and all sorts of refugium stuff from several service tanks (or maybe his own) and I think that was a tremendous idea. 

 

I personally got a bunch of pieces of live rock or scoops of sand from other peoples tanks I trusted while I was just completed cycling. It took 3 years, but I think I'm at a stage now where I would consider my tank to be established. If I don't clean the glass, it's coraline spots in 3-5 days. 

 

Re: flow. 

If you're planning for SPS, I don't think you can have enough flow. On my 3' x 12" wide and tall tank, I'm running x2 MP10's ramping up to the highest settings throughout the day. I'd encourage you to also plop x2 MP40's on there like you originally planned.