Carl June 7, 2006 Share June 7, 2006 For the past few months, I have been half-heartedly looking for a mechanical engineer to help me design my tank stand. With no luck, last week I turned to a local machine shop with an on-site certified mechanical engineer. I asked the question - what size I-beams do I need under the tank, assuming either 4, 6 or 9 legs. They understood my requirements, and would get back to me with an estimate for the plans. I got a call today saying that they've come up with the estimate for the PLANS only - not the stand - just the plans, and that I should come by to talk. So, I stopped by there on my way home this afternoon. He said that the stand could go one of two ways 4 legs or 6, but they said 6 legs, and two main beams running the length would work just fine. (flashback) About 2 years ago, I had a support column removed from one of the main house support I-beams in my basement. This required an engineered plan, with stamp, to determine what additional support I'd need to add to the I-beam to safely remove the steel column. For this work, I paid the certified engineer about $300 for the plan (I figure it took him 2 hours of work he could do in his sleep). I purchased the steel myself, brought it somewhere to get milled to the correct size, and had a local welder spend 2 hours welding the additional support to the original I-beam. This added about $800 more to this project - total $1,100. Overall, I am very happy with that project. (Back to today) Now get this...hope you're sitting down... The plan ONLY...just the plan...nothing but the plan...one piece of paper that showed me what size I-beam to use...with an engineers stamp...now get this...the plan only, will cost me $2,310.00. What am I to do? Is there anyone out there that has a tank - approximately 450 gallons - 108x30x36high - that has used steel for a stand - that can help me out here. I know I can over-build the stand by using 3, 10 inch beams, and 15 legs. But I want to leave as much room as possible under the stand for the equipment, sump, chiller, ozone, refugium etc... HELP !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eve June 7, 2006 Share June 7, 2006 Carl - just a question - is there something that says "over a certain size/weight you must use steel for the stand" or is that just your person comfort level? My 300 gallon tank (8X2X3) is made extremely well - out of wood - and it's a "display height" stand so that I have no problem fitting things or working underneath. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl June 7, 2006 Author Share June 7, 2006 No, it doesn't need to be steel. My thoughts are though to get the most usable room under the tank - use steel vs wood. Fewer legs, cross supports etc... I was originally hoping I could get a design that allowed for 6 or 9 legs, but only called for 4 inch or smaller steel I-beams. As it is, I don't think I'll be able to fit my skimmer underneath, no matter what I use for support. -Carl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HowardofNOVA June 7, 2006 Share June 7, 2006 Carl, DISCLAIMER, Not responsible should stand collapse when turned into swimming pool for bathing beauties, frat parties or 30 tons of LR to make look of FL Jetties! Ok, that being said, Was a former Structural Steel Fitter and seen several large stand configuration..... ....And I slept at a Holiday Inn last night! Tank demension please and details? Said 450g setup? Access to front/rear only? Materials from Metal Shop on Loisdale Rd in Springfield. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl June 7, 2006 Author Share June 7, 2006 Howard, The total tank size is 108" x 30" x 36 tall. I will build this into a wall - picture framed from the viewing area. The tank room is a 13x13 foot storage room currenlty filled with xmas decoration boxes. The tank is heavy - let's assume 500 pounds. No front panel - just rear access only from storage room. Add my 200 pounds, cause I'm going to be crawling around or standing on it trying to reach the fallen coral on the bottom front. I would also like a shelf (steel?) that sits on the I-beams, that extends 6 inches beyond the tank...like a shelf of sorts for me to put stuff on, and stand on. tank is acryllic. Left side is full 30 inch toothed overflow. Over flow area is 30" x 6 inches. I am familiar with the metal shop - that's where I got the steel for my basement project. In a perfect world, I'd like to have 4 legs - one at each corner, and two, 4-inch I-beam supports underneath going the 108 inches. Next, I could go with 6 legs. Three at each end, and three, 4-inch I-beam supports underneath going the 108 inches. But, I'd even go with 9 legs. Three at each of the two ends, and three in the middle. Supporting three 4-inch I-beams going the 108 inches. BUT, I have absolutly NO idea what it would take structurally to do this. The ceiling in the room is 94 inches high. I assume I'll need 30 inches above the tank for maintenance and lights. I would prefer the tank to be as HIGH as possible - and if you think I could get away with less than 30 inches above the tank...I'd do it. 24 inches? -Carl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HowardofNOVA June 7, 2006 Share June 7, 2006 IMO, Your looking at over 5000# of weight for setup. 108"x30"x36" = 116640 / 231 = 504.94g x 9#/per g = 4544# plus tank 500# plus self, etc = 5300# +. Top/Bottom Frames using 4" x 4" x 3/8" Stock for all Braces welded picture frame style in corners. Vertical Braces same to be fitted inside above/below frame and bolted together using 4"x4" PT post. Front against wall will have (2) additional 4"x4" post for added supports spaced evenly apart. Back/Access side will have single center brace with same post. For gang plank, top frame could be extended out 10-15" with not too much difficulties. In this way, the top/bottom could be moved about easier and re-assembled if needed. I don't have acess to the exact information and believe this will be a bit of overkill, but under the circumstances, should allow you to do what you need. Primer coat at least twice with rustoleum and paint to protect! Cap with 3/4" plywood for tank surface and 1" styrofoam. Ceiling 94 inches high minus 36 inches tank height, minus 24 above the tank for maintenance and lights leaves you only 34" for tank height!!! Not alot but do-able! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davjbeas June 7, 2006 Share June 7, 2006 I was in a house in reston doing job related services and i saw a tank setup in progress. I think the lady must have won the lottary, there was a steel frame for tank that was maybe 15' in length, totaly custom work. She said The owner of the marine screne in herndon was building the setup. I can't remember the owners name, but he would probably still have the resources to help you with your needs. http://www.marinescene.com I hope this helps, David B. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl June 7, 2006 Author Share June 7, 2006 Howard, Top/Bottom Frames using 4" x 4" x 3/8 I assume you mean 4x4 square tubing? Do I need a bottom frame on the floor? Or can I just put 4x4 PT wood for the legs...right onto the concrete floor? Front against wall will have (2) additional 4"x4" post for added supports spaced evenly apart. If I put extra legs on the front (inside the wall), and not the rear...wouldn't this cause the tank to sag differently in the rear than in the front? Ceiling 94 inches high minus 36 inches tank height, minus 24 above the tank for maintenance and lights leaves you only 34" for tank height!!! Not alot but do-able! With only 24 inches above the tank just make my life too difficult? And the 34 inches underneath is really a lot less. You need to take away 6 inches for the stand and plywood and foam. Which only leaves 28 inches of height under the stand. No good for my skimmer, and I assume I'd have to make my sump tank 16 inches or less...especially if I put a full 4 inch bottom frame on the floor. :( And, not that I don't trust what you're saying...but I would really like to see somthing similar that has already been done...and still standing...I've had a lot of people tell me what they think should work, but no one can tell me for sure...or point to an example in action. I suppose if I wanted to know what will definatley work...I have to spend $2300. Howard - I really appreciate your input - Thanks. Dave, I purchased this tank from a Marine Scene Customer through Tom White. The whole reason I'm in this hobby is because of Tom - he was instrumental in getting my 70 gallon up and running. I asked him about his engineer, and called him...but the engineer won't call me back...perhaps because this job is too small??? Thanks for the recommendation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gatortailale June 8, 2006 Share June 8, 2006 see this thread on RC - professor sanjay joshi's new system 500 g; images of stand designs ... http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthre...threadid=730564 He has spoken to wamas once or twice and spoke at our macna last year. hope it helps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl June 8, 2006 Author Share June 8, 2006 Craig - Thanks for the link. I'll read through this later today. -Carl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NAGA June 8, 2006 Share June 8, 2006 Carl, I pm'd you that thread yesterday as well. The sump on pg. 17 is what I built for Sanjay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HowardofNOVA June 8, 2006 Share June 8, 2006 Ok Carl, I took a look at what Sanjay had done and believe as I expected, what I was showing was over kill for sure! Just got off the phone with Potomac Steel and Supply, 7801 Loisdale Rd, Springfield VA 22150, 703-550-7300. For legally purposes, they wouldn't guarantee anything recommending an engineer! Prices: I Beams: 3"x 2 3/8" x 3/16" x 20' $81.00 each 3" is the vertical and 2 3/8" are the horizontal sections. 3/16" is the thickness and they come in 20 feet lengths. Rectangled shaped steel stock, 3" height x 2" width x 3/16" thickness x 20' lengths $93.00 Angle iron, 4" x 4" x 1/4" x 20' $89.00. Sanjay just used cinder blocks to hold (2) 4" I beams and 1/2 plywood for the last 8 yrs with zero problems. My updated recommendations and from here you'll need to get a welder to put together. Floor: 3/4" plywood on top of (4) I beams (above) with I beams welded to 4" angle iron flanges with end down on outside of stand. Legs: (4) 4x4PT Wood Post on corners bolted to angle iron above and a bottom (3) Rectangled Stock as legs set 1 center, 1 against each 4x4post welded top/bottom with angle irons Base: 4" angle iron on floor ends where (4) 4x4 PT Wood post are bolted to angle irons, rectangle stock Cross bracing: Run either 3"x2" Rectangle Stock or 4" Angle Iron across back on base bolted on bottoms, repeat front. This will give you strength and complete opened bottom. The legs will have (2) bolted 4"x4" post and (3) welded 3"x 2" Steel stock on each side with (3) I beams and 3/4" plywood floor as resting spot for new tank. If you still fill you need more, add an additional welded Rectangle Stock to center with legs meeting cross bracing and either bolt or weld there as well. But I don't believe you will need it! Should run you about $400 for material Welder $? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gatortailale June 8, 2006 Share June 8, 2006 Look farther into thread, few more pages, Sanjay had a steel stand made. He played with idea of blocks & beams, but opted for steel for more space under tank & due to height of ceiling in basement. zooqi built stand - see page 11 of thread http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthre...5&pagenumber=11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HowardofNOVA June 8, 2006 Share June 8, 2006 Ok, what I'm going to say next might seem controversal, but being that I'm from PA, I feel I deserve the right to say this: PA People are NUTS! Reason: We think we can build ANYTHING! Let me prempt this by saying I was a Certified Welder that build a lot of the bridges you drive on today in PA, VA, WV, NYC, OH, etc! I've built M1 Military Army Tanks that our boys in Iraq are driving in around now, build Farm equipment trailers big enough to drive a tractor onto, fencing machines, bailers, hoppers, etc and I was later the designer for the I beams for above highway bridges that we prefab in PA. IMHO: His stand has a flaw that I hope never come to be: The stand is basically made of 3 4" H-beams 7ft long, and the legs are made of 4 in Tube steel 1/4" thick. Its probably over designed. #1 if you look at where the 4"x4"x1/4" Square Stock Steel post meet the I beams. The only thing that connects them is a simple connection type weld. Meaning that straight up and down pressure should not cause this to fault. BUT, if any rocking motion happens and there will be some, the welds can and will crack, which could leave to disaster. I hope this never becomes an issue, but if they would take this design and add say a triangle shape plates at the connections giving 2 directional support, this will cover any problems there. For anyone interested... my calculations show that the weight of the tank is close to 485 lbs. !!!Each beam is about 83 lbs, (250 total for the beams), the steel for the legs and frame is about 195 lbs, plus about 40lbs for the angled peices. So don't ask me take it get powder coated.. its not moving out. #2 and this depends on Carl housing situation and access to the work area, can you get a large stand in where the tank will be? I'll assume that you can, so what is your maximum doorway opening to the final resting spot? If you use either stand designs, you won't go wrong. I'll let you call for the 4" I Beams and 4" Square Post and would recommend doing same as they did with support brace and add second on front/back supports and added brace at weld points. After that, you could drive a truck on it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caribbean Jake June 8, 2006 Share June 8, 2006 Hats OFF to you Howard. I have to admit, after that explanation, and being an engineer myself I have to admit you got your $#!^ together and know what you are talking about. I agree with Howard, there should be an angular support between the perpendicual 90 degree planes for support and assurance of vertical and sheer forces (rocking movement). Jacob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HowardofNOVA June 8, 2006 Share June 8, 2006 Thank ya, Thank ya very much! Ok, Mr Engineer, being that you work with this more than I now, would (4) 3" I beams that I'm stating above with a sheet of 3/4" plywood on top using their setup with 4" Square Stock Steel and appropriate cross bracing work for this gentlemen? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeltwayBandit June 8, 2006 Share June 8, 2006 Wow. I second what Jake said. Nice catch about the lack of bracing between the beams and the legs. I also agree with your assesment that it shouldn't be a problem.... but that ol' Murphy chap is always lurking around the corner. Thank ya, Thank ya very much! Ok, Mr Engineer, being that you work with this more than I now, would (4) 3" I beams that I'm stating above with a sheet of 3/4" plywood on top using their setup with 4" Square Stock Steel and appropriate cross bracing work for this gentlemen? I'm assuming you are using a mild steel (A36 or similar)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HowardofNOVA June 8, 2006 Share June 8, 2006 Uh, um YEAH! A36,37, what ever it takes! Standard steel stock, no cast, not available. BTW, I'm not building this Carl unless you want to wait until mid July! No time sir! Besides, I'll have to rent a welder and have not touched a machine in 15yrs! BUT if you want, will work with you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flowerseller June 8, 2006 Share June 8, 2006 OH man, I gotta see this. Will you be selling popcorn and soft drinks during the show? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HowardofNOVA June 8, 2006 Share June 8, 2006 Man, Seriously, this would be a piece of cake! You wouldn't believe some of the cool stuff I've worked on years ago! Craziest stuff I worked on was in my EARLY days welding together the Army Tanks! Had a machine that me and another guy would work in tandem of each other welding the hull together, would go non stop for an hour and half running a weld that was 2" across! Huge welding rods in those days! HECK, I use to teach a night school weld shop and ALMOST went to the Alaskan Pipeline! ...oh, brings back memories! ...flash burns, hot sparks down your shirt, hot slag down your shoes, gunk in your sinuses! ....dang, shore don't miss it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeltwayBandit June 8, 2006 Share June 8, 2006 Carl, I'm trying to do some simple beam calculations for you. Dude.. this is seriously bringing back bad memories from my Structures courses.... Young's modulus, first moment of inertia, moments, ugghh... so much to relearn before I can take my PE exam.... But, trust me you don't want my help welding. I have tried it a time or two and I kept getting the stick stuck to the piece I was trying to weld. I would strike an ark and then wham.. the stick welded itself to the metal. Then when I did get it going it was all ugly and gloppy.. I can NDT welds though... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl June 8, 2006 Author Share June 8, 2006 Wow...I go to work for a day...and the thread fills up !! Howard I should have no problem getting things into the basement. I have a back door that should accomodate almost any stand. The one issue I may have is lifting the stand over the bar, into the picture framed hole, in through the wall behind the bar, and into the fish-tank room. But I think with enough hands, we won't drop it on the new counter. I agree that lateral support is necessary - cross beams as you suggested. Similar to what they have on Sanjay's going the "short" way front-to-back, but also the length/long way. Perhaps 4 of these - one on each leg - not just two on the front two legs. One concern - my tank will be longer - 108" vs. Sanjays 84". My tank is a full two feet longer with no support in the middle?? Is a 4-inch I-beam going to cut it? (Side question - which is stronger, I-beam or square tubing?) Two concern - My tank has 6 holes in the bottom for a closed loop. I haven't decided whether to use them or plug them up. They are all in a straight line about 1/3 of the distance from the back edge. (side note - I spoke with NAGA yesterday who said that bottom closed-loops are a recipe for headaches.) Three concern - With an acryllic tank, is 3/4 plywood sufficient. Sanjay's tank is glass, and is only supported at the edges vs acryllic that is supported throughout the entire bottom. Craig & Jeff (NAGA) Thanks for the pictures...and the links to Sanjay's stand...I'm glad i finally reached out for help on WAMAS! And have now made more progress in the last two days over the past 5 months. I assume there are different I-beams. Even though we are saying 4 inch, 3 inch etc...I assume there are different thicknesses. Craig/Howard - I don't understand the A36, 37 stuff. I am hoping to cash in on a favor of a buddy of mine for the welding. My buddy works at a metal shop, and does great work...issue is, no one at his shop would recommend what I should use for materials. -Carl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HowardofNOVA June 8, 2006 Share June 8, 2006 Carl, Agree with everyone in this crazy world that they don't want to take responsibility if something happens, hence $2300 bill from Engineer. I nor anyone else at WAMAS have worked with this exact configiration either! But with a little commonsense here I believe we can SUGGEST a plan that will work! 1st, I believe what I mentioned before will do, but you want to up it to 4" I beams, do it with the added braces we mentioned, bevel/grind area's to be welded (welders will know what I mean) to get a solid weld, you should be good to go! On the CL issue, Jeff had a pretty compelling issue on those, hence my not getting any in my tank! Carrying that tank over hill nor dale will require a lot of guys named Bruno and Chip! FWIW! :D I Beam and plywwod thicknesses stated should be fine. Take pictures! :D Post 2500 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl June 8, 2006 Author Share June 8, 2006 Howard - I really appreciate your help on this. I will not hold you responsible for a falling/leaking tank. I am going to take the recommendations here, and give it to my buddy to see if/when he can put this together for me. I will definately take plenty of pictures along the way. -Carl Carl, I'm trying to do some simple beam calculations for you. Dude.. this is seriously bringing back bad memories from my Structures courses.... Young's modulus, first moment of inertia, moments, ugghh... so much to relearn before I can take my PE exam.... Is there a place on the web where I can put in these "simple beam calculations?" Because I would like to confirm the use of just end-legs, and not a middle support. But, apparently there isn't anywhere to go (without spending $2300) to figure out the flex on an i-beam over a length, with a particular weight. I guess I really already know the answer to this - NO. I suppose in the end, building a leg in the middle of the span would just be $150 of insurance, and I'd then have to use 2 smaller sumps vs one larger one underneath. -Carl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caribbean Jake June 9, 2006 Share June 9, 2006 suggestion, do you know an engineer student, perhaps out of VT or near by that has already taken structural engineering and material mechanics? They might take your stand (calculations that is) as a base for their final semester project and present it in class for a grade. Hey it might take a little time but will cost you $0.00 and you will have the opinion of the professor whom probably is an Engineer, PE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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