BeltwayBandit June 9, 2006 Share June 9, 2006 suggestion, do you know an engineer student, perhaps out of VT or near by that has already taken structural engineering and material mechanics? They might take your stand (calculations that is) as a base for their final semester project and present it in class for a grade. Hey it might take a little time but will cost you $0.00 and you will have the opinion of the professor whom probably is an Engineer, PE. Excellent suggestion. -A36 is just a grade of steel. -I have found a few beam calculators that I am dorking with. I just need to make sure I get the inputs right. -4 inch beam is probably overkill (which is not necessarily bad) -If I remember correctly, box beams work better under compression (which is why you want them for the legs) and I beams are better for spanning the gap between the legs. -Yes Howard I do understand what beveling the edges is for. I've had to inspect many many welds and weld prep in my previous life on ship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HowardofNOVA June 9, 2006 Share June 9, 2006 Sorry Craig, didn't mean that for you, just something Carl needed for passing on to his welding buddies! Great tip Jacob, Being a former Vo-Tech Welder, might be another place to check with their Engineering Dept, but with all the local universities, my be the best place to check! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl June 9, 2006 Author Share June 9, 2006 I really like the idea of a school project. I don't know anyone at VT or other college. But I have a few neighbors with kids coming home this summer...I'll ask around. My brother can get me the metal at a supplier's cost, so I talked with him about the plans you've drawn up for me. He's going to ask my buddy if we can build this somtime soon. What he was able to find are 20 foot I-beams, 4.16 tall, .280 thickness, and 13 lbs/foot. Since this comes in 20 foot pieces, I'll probably purchase two lengths, and have 4 I-beams underneath suporting the plywood. The square tubing he found was 4 inch square, 1/4 inch thick wall, at 12.21 lbs/foot. We'd build two U-shaped legs - very similar to Sanjay's - one on each end. With cross braces like Sanjay's front to back. The only mod there may be the cross braces up to the I-beam for lateral support (left and right) as you guys suggested. If we weld just the two outside (front and back) I-beams to the legs, it will keep the weight of the stand under 500 pounds. Then once the stand is in place, I can just place the two inside I-beams on top of the legs without welding. Otherwise lifting this thing in the air to get it in through the wall, and over the bar at the full 720 pounds will be impossible - no matter how much beer and pizza I have on hand. The last thing we may do, is to build a 3rd U-shaped leg for the middle of the span - built exactly the same as the other two U-shaped legs. I could decide to use it or not after I start putting the water in the tank. Even if I do use this 3rd leg, I'll be happy with the stand because I won't have the middle support with 3, 4-inch legs going to the floor - just the two legs - (hope this makes sense). So in all, 6 legs going to the floor - not 9. And I will assume that this middle leg will also NOT be welded in place. It will just sit there happily under the weight of the tank. Whadoyouthink? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Lazar June 11, 2006 Share June 11, 2006 Carl, Earlier in the thread you were concerned about not having enough room under the tank to fit your skimmer. Why not put the skimmer in your equipment room, and not under the stand at all? It would make it easier to access for cleaning, adjustment, or whatever. Jon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl June 12, 2006 Author Share June 12, 2006 Jon, I think I will have to put the skimmer someplace other than under the tank...it is too tall. But, I want as much room underneath as I can get...sump, refug, Kalk, Ozone, UV, closed loop pump, chiller etc...Not to mention a frag tank, fresh water storage, salt water mix etc... I actually don't know what equipment I'll be using yet...for example, I don't have immediate plans for Kalk, Ozone, chiller, or frag tank, I just want to make the most of the space I have for if/when I add these things. I do have a "fish room", but currently have to share this room with our seasonal decorations - xmas, easter, luggage etc... -Carl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HowardofNOVA June 12, 2006 Share June 12, 2006 Carl, A couple of questions? I don't have immediate plans FWIW! To save you money and time, I would take the time and write down your plan and then work your plan! If you don't know where every item is before you do anything else, DO IT NOW! Spending hundreds of dollars on equipment and time will double fast if you don't! We'd build two U-shaped legs What do you mean by this? -Can you post any pictures of what you done so far? My buddy works at a metal shop Here's a suggestion that I think you will love and easy if you have the tools! Tools Needed: #1 Aceytlene Torch with cutting tips #2 Welder #3 Grinder #4 Sledge or heavy hammer #5 20' piece of 4"x4"x1/4" Square Steel Stock (SSS) #6 Band saw -First figure out height of table you want, [substract thickness of 3/4" plywood & height of 4" I-Beams and remaining would be height of legs] -For example, lets say you have 3/4" plywood, 4" I-Beam, 30" tank and 30" clearance that you want. That equals 64 3/4, say 65" Ceiling 90"-65" only leaves you 25" for stand (legs) height! So tank is 36" wide, 25" height x 2 legs = 86" Depending how precision your worker is, Basically cut SSS each in 86" lengths with preferably band saw or torch? -Next layout cut section for "V" cuts on same side of SSS and using band saw if available or torch, make cut and remove "V" section so that you can BEND with torch to form a "U". Your keeping one side untouched as a hinge when you bend this piece! -After bending into the "U", you need to setup upside down with ends flat on floor like legs (Actually, they will be legs!) and frame is square with legs straight up and down and right angles from cross piece. Using a small rod or plate as a brace, tack to hold legs square and then WELD the closed V. -Repeat for other side and this should give you your legs -Add 1/4" Triangled Shaped Plates as braces to Inside Side of SSS and weld making sure all is square to floor. This should finish product of the legs. Might need to ground bottoms to make sure they rest level to floor. Now at this point, all you need to do is lay the (4) 4" I-Beams across top, tack in place and finish welding all sides. -Primer coat and paint finished stand -Primer coat, paint and Liquid nail 3/4" plywood to finished stand for floor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl June 13, 2006 Author Share June 13, 2006 I agree 100% on the planning. My initial plans are a FOWLR tank - mostly because I don't want to spend $ on chiller, lights, calcium reactor - and I'd like to have some of the non-reef safe fish I can't have currently. I have a 70 gal reef tank already. After a couple of years with a FOWLR, I may "upgrade" to a reef tank. I want to have everything in place if/when I "upgrade". ie - extra outlets, extra ball valves off of the return plumbing for chiller and calcium etc. So, right now, phase one, I am planning on: - 500 gallon tank - already have- install 24 inches from ceiling for maximum viewing height - H&S Skimmer-already have - but learned my lesson that I shouldn't have purchased it until I planned where it would go and how it would fit into system...I just bought it spur of the moment - 3 20amp 110v and 1 20amp 220v outlets/circuits already installed...I may need another 110v circuit?? - light box similar to Weatherson on RC, my initial lighting will be much lower though - humidity exhaust fan to outside - sump - decide size after figuring out stand - stand- in planning - plumbing with extra ball valves to support future - calc, chiller, Ozone maybe - Refug - not sure where that will go if 500 tank is high- i would like that to gravity feed back into tank - tank has 6 holes in bottom for CL - perhaps 3 up, 3 down using sequence pump - 2nd Sequence to run sump circulation, and refug, skimmer, UV - heater - not decided yet...drop in or in-line? - controller - initially I may go timers, depends on budget/timing - 2 drains in floor- planned out, not installed - flood alarm to central monitoring - installed - will use epoxy paint on floor - either high gloss paint or pvc paneling in room - power backup - 2500w generator - no full house backup in current plans Phase 2 I have a 150 gallon tank I'd like to use as a quarantine and/or frag tank. I don't know what I'll do - hook the two tanks together for non-quarantine times, and water changes? I'd like to only have to use one skimmer, one chiller, one refugium etc... So, here is where my plans start to fall apart as you can see... Should I have two redundant systems? 150 gallon may be too big for my needs...I may only want a 12 or 16 inch high frag tank...and need to sell 150 gallon. And the 150 will be too tall for the sump under the 500. Things that I don't have flexibility on - where tank will go, and how high I want it. Once that is nailed down THEN, I will continue the plan, build and purchase the rest of the stuff. The U-shaped legs...Remember the picture above in the thread of Sanjay's legs. He has one "upside-down U-shaped leg" on the left side of his tank, and one upside-down U-shaped leg on the right side of his tank, and I-beams connecting the two U-shaped legs. So one of the U-shaped legs, is really the front and rear right side legs welded together, with 2 45's for front/back support. I know this is making sense in my head. My thought was to build three of these double leg things...and use the 3rd one in the middle of the full span if necessary. I like your idea of cutting the V in the 4x4 legs and "hinge" it around. I love tools! and have some decent wood-working tools. I loved wood shop in school, and even built decks and house additions for 2 years after college. BUT, for some reason, I never took metal shop. I have no metal working tools, so am relying on my buddy. Sounds like you have some experience here...do you have the torch, welder, grinder and bandsaw? looking forward to your reply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HowardofNOVA June 13, 2006 Share June 13, 2006 Carl, No on the tools for metal working! Have you tried contacting a local Vo-Tech school? We use to do a lot of project when I was a student for folks and they usually only charged a small amount above material cost to build! Use the 150g tank as a community sump in another area besides under the Main Tank, possibly to a side and put a frag tank above it so that you could gravity drain to sump from Main Tank, Frag Tank and maybe refugium elsewhere? Use low area under main tank as storage, kalk or calcium reactors or QT tank with separate area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeltwayBandit June 20, 2006 Share June 20, 2006 Carl, I was able to run some beam calculations for you. I ran the calculation for a simply supported beam (assuming 4 x 4" I beams equally sharing a 5500 lb distributed load). With that you would have a 0.38" deflection at the center of the beam. (This is a worst worst case scenario because it doesn't take into account any stiffening from bracing the load bearing beams at the ends.). With that in mind I would recommend adding some sort of bracing at the center and you should be all set. A simple column under each beam or run another beam perpendicular to the beams and supported by a column should work. If you support it in the center the maximum deflection drops to 0.01 inches. BB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl June 20, 2006 Author Share June 20, 2006 Carl, I was able to run some beam calculations for you. I ran the calculation for a simply supported beam (assuming 4 x 4" I beams equally sharing a 5500 lb distributed load). With that you would have a 0.38" deflection at the center of the beam. (This is a worst worst case scenario because it doesn't take into account any stiffening from bracing the load bearing beams at the ends.). With that in mind I would recommend adding some sort of bracing at the center and you should be all set. A simple column under each beam or run another beam perpendicular to the beams and supported by a column should work. If you support it in the center the maximum deflection drops to 0.01 inches. BB Great ! Thanks for doing the calculations! I don't know what deflection is acceptable...but almost .38 of an inch sounds like a flood waiting to happen. .01 inches on the other hand sounds good to me...I'm sure my floor is off more than that...even after I adjust the stand w/ shims !! So...I will do as you suggest...use 3 to 4 I-beams length-wise. Build 3 sets of legs...each with two columns...each column with 45 degree cross braces. Thanks!! -Carl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HowardofNOVA June 20, 2006 Share June 20, 2006 I was able to run some beam calculations for you. I ran the calculation for a simply supported beam (assuming 4 x 4" I beams equally sharing a 5500 lb distributed load). With that you would have a 0.38" deflection at the center of the beam. (This is a worst worst case scenario because it doesn't take into account any stiffening from bracing the load bearing beams at the ends.). With that in mind I would recommend adding some sort of bracing at the center and you should be all set. A simple column under each beam or run another beam perpendicular to the beams and supported by a column should work. If you support it in the center the maximum deflection drops to 0.01 inches. DANG! Craig, don't know what you said, but impressed the HE@% out of me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeltwayBandit June 20, 2006 Share June 20, 2006 DANG! Craig, don't know what you said, but impressed the HE@% out of me! It boils down to, if you want to be safe you can't span the entire gap without support in the middle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HowardofNOVA June 20, 2006 Share June 20, 2006 Your saying with 3" I Beams or 4" or both? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl June 21, 2006 Author Share June 21, 2006 I think Craig is saying four, 4-inch I-beams. With three sets of legs...one set on each end, and one in the middle. Without the middle pair of legs...I'd get .38 inch deflection. With the middle pair of legs...I'd get .01 inch deflection. Although with the Closed loop in the bottom of the tank, I may have difficulty getting four, 4-inch I-beams...I may only be able to fit three, 4-inch I-beams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeltwayBandit June 21, 2006 Share June 21, 2006 I think Craig is saying four, 4-inch I-beams. With three sets of legs...one set on each end, and one in the middle. Without the middle pair of legs...I'd get .38 inch deflection. With the middle pair of legs...I'd get .01 inch deflection. Although with the Closed loop in the bottom of the tank, I may have difficulty getting four, 4-inch I-beams...I may only be able to fit three, 4-inch I-beams. I'll work on a plan with 3 beams. I also want to play with moving the end supports some. That should help to counter the deflection in the middle. If I move each of the ends in 8-10 inches it will shorten the span and provide a counter moment on the ends to help cancel out some of the deflection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl June 21, 2006 Author Share June 21, 2006 I'll work on a plan with 3 beams. I also want to play with moving the end supports some. That should help to counter the deflection in the middle. If I move each of the ends in 8-10 inches it will shorten the span and provide a counter moment on the ends to help cancel out some of the deflection. Thats a good point...move the legs in by 6 inches.... But isn't .01 deflection good enough? But that was for four, 4-inch ibeams, not three... Also...if I put in 45 degree supports from the outside legs to towards the middle of the stand, and attach them to the i-beams...that would help...but as I'm thinking about it...if each leg has only 2 columns...I can only put this cross bracing on two of the four -beams...which would make the middle two i-beams sag more than the supported ones. make sense? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeltwayBandit June 21, 2006 Share June 21, 2006 Thats a good point...move the legs in by 6 inches.... But isn't .01 deflection good enough? But that was for four, 4-inch ibeams, not three... Also...if I put in 45 degree supports from the outside legs to towards the middle of the stand, and attach them to the i-beams...that would help...but as I'm thinking about it...if each leg has only 2 columns...I can only put this cross bracing on two of the four -beams...which would make the middle two i-beams sag more than the supported ones. make sense? Yes. That can be solved by welding in an anchor point across your legs. It will also give you the bracing you need in the legs anyway. I'll add that to what I have come up with. Here is a picture of what I am thinking about... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeltwayBandit June 21, 2006 Share June 21, 2006 Update... I have a guy in my office who has Auto Cad. I will get him to gin up some detailed drawings for you of what I am thinking about. This will also let me, possibly, run the design through an FEA program (If I can find someone with access to one.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl June 21, 2006 Author Share June 21, 2006 How about adding these cross braces...in red. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HowardofNOVA June 21, 2006 Share June 21, 2006 Craig, If Carl uses the 4" post with braces going in 2 different directions and four 4" I-Beams across top with say 4" angle iron for cross brace, wouldn't that hold with no problems? My example of front view showing tank on top of 3/4" plywood on top of 4" I-Beam welded to 4" Angle Iron welded to 4" post: Tank set here on top of 1" Styrofoam~ 1" Styrofoam 3/4" Plywood..................................~ Liquid nail glue to keep from moving WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW~ WWW 4" I-BEAM Going across WWW WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW~ Welded here with cross brace running two different directions? XX4"angleXXXXXXXXX X welded here and to sides X #4"post# X ###### X ###### X ###### X ###### X ###### ~~~~~~ By doing this, does he really need a center brace? If nothing else, how about adding another 4" Angle iron welded in middle and add just a back leg with angled braces in 3 directions, allowing the front complete opening? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeltwayBandit June 21, 2006 Share June 21, 2006 By doing this, does he really need a center brace? If nothing else, how about adding another 4" Angle iron welded in middle and add just a back leg with angled braces in 3 directions, allowing the front complete opening? I didn't quite get your ASCII art there Howard. As for the center brace. Is the tank glass or acrylic? IF the tank is acrylic the center brace is absolutely essential. If not, the center brace will help stiffen up the entire structure and should still be included, IMO. My revised design eliminates the center bracing/support by moving the ends in 10 inches on either side. The overhang will partially offset the bending moment at the center, reduces the main span by 20", and will minimize deflection while maintaining a wide open space under the tank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HowardofNOVA June 22, 2006 Share June 22, 2006 The front view is of the Left Top Corner The # (pound sign) represented the 4" Square Stock Legs The X represent the 4" x 4" x 1/4" to 5/16" "L" shaped Angle Iron for caping over legs and hanging down on outside as a corner, then welded. This is the brace across top front to back. Angled braces from legs to Angle Iron. The 4 I-Beams (represented by the "W") would set on top of this, welded all around. 3/4" plywood Liquid Nail Glued to top of I-Beams 1" Styrofoam on top of plywood. I was talking about a third leg in middle if needed like a shelf bracket look with single leg in back. Carl, Try contacting the guy on the 700g Ebay post! He has a steel stand and maybe give you an idea on what he used for it as well? Howard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl June 22, 2006 Author Share June 22, 2006 now you have me thinking...the idea of getting away without the middle support is what I really want. And if all I have to do is move the outside legs in 10 inches each...that may be the ticket !! now, back to my buddy who's going to build it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl August 7, 2006 Author Share August 7, 2006 Ordered the steel !! Will start measuring, cutting, welding on Wednesday... I'll stop using this thread...and post pictures on Carl's 500 project... Carl's 500 Project -Carl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HowardofNOVA August 8, 2006 Share August 8, 2006 Man, I wish I had the time to help you do this! Would be fun to do some welding again! ...of course the smoke (cough) would suck.. ....those nasty flash burns sure where a pain..... .......and those hot ashes down your shoes, ouch!..... .........and pants......Oooooo! Ok, The heck with, send photos instead! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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