Reef tank alkalinity question

[Nelsonqd2015]

Hi all.

I bought a Hanna Alkalinity test (PPM). I just did my first check and it says that the Alkalinity is at 300 ppm. I was looking at some charts and I think it is on the high side. Is that correct? What should it be in PPM? If it is high, how do I take it down?

Please let me know.

Thanks,

Nelson

[Origami]

Check this thread for a handy table.

 

http://www.wamas.org/forums/index.php?/topic/54085-Lookup-Tables-for-Hanna-Checkers

 

Doing a little quick math, it's very high. 300/50 = 6 meq/liter. That's 6.0×2.8 = 16.8 dKH. How did it get so high? Are you dosing? Is measurement error a possibility? What is your calcium level?

 

 

 

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[Customride0105]

300.. eaither you didn't do it rite or ur dkh is 17 lol.

 

You are way above high.

 

Ppm 125-196 range

[zygote2k]

ditch the hanna meter- a novelty item at best that provides random values.

go back to a highly repeatable Salifert kit and spend your money on corals/fish/etc.

[cynthia]

I agree with those above.  I bought all Hannah checkers and recently noticed that mine was WAY off on the calcium even though I bought new regents.  I went and bought a Red Sea Pro Test kit and found out it was over 600!!!!.  It was because my Hannah checker was reading 324 and I started dosing.  I was alerted when I kept dosing and the checker's reading never went up.

[Origami]

ditch the hanna meter- a novelty item at best that provides random values.

go back to a highly repeatable Salifert kit and spend your money on corals/fish/etc.

Wrong.

 

I've used it successfully and against reference solutions for many years now (and against Salifert, too). The alkalinity checker is among the more reliable ones. The calcium checker is very touchy, though.

[zygote2k]

Wrong.

 

I've used it successfully and against reference solutions for many years now (and against Salifert, too). The alkalinity checker is among the more reliable ones. The calcium checker is very touchy, though.

In my experience, cutting the little square packets open resulted in small amounts of reagent not getting into the vial and if the cuvet wasn't cleaned properly, it also gave different readings.

When you test water repeatedly, sometimes 3-4 times a day on various tanks, the amount of issues with the Hanna meters proved to be too much hassle and potential for bad results. I really had envisioned an easy to use, hassle free electronic testing method, but the Hanna meters simply don't measure up. 

Your home results may vary, but that has been my experience with them over the years.

[Origami]

In my experience, cutting the little square packets open resulted in small amounts of reagent not getting into the vial and if the cuvet wasn't cleaned properly, it also gave different readings.

When you test water repeatedly, sometimes 3-4 times a day on various tanks, the amount of issues with the Hanna meters proved to be too much hassle and potential for bad results. I really had envisioned an easy to use, hassle free electronic testing method, but the Hanna meters simply don't measure up.

Your home results may vary, but that has been my experience with them over the years.

The alkalinity test doesn't work like that at all, Rob. It uses a liquid reagent. Maybe you forgot that. Now, they did have some bad alk results in the recent past (due to packaging) but even Salifert had a bad run of tests some years ago.

 

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[AlanM]

The packet nightmare for me was the ultra low range phosphorus. I settled on a method for doing it and unless there is a breeze in the room it has gotten a bit easier, heh. Alkalinity, assuming it is accurate, is pretty easy, and I always get numbers that are around what makes sense to me.

[Origami]

The packet nightmare for me was the ultra low range phosphorus. I settled on a method for doing it and unless there is a breeze in the room it has gotten a bit easier, heh. Alkalinity, assuming it is accurate, is pretty easy, and I always get numbers that are around what makes sense to me.

I've done on with the ULR test. (Not part of what the IP wanted, though. ) The key is getting every bit of the reagent into the vial.

 

Back to the original post, though.

 

How did your alk get so high? Do you trust that you tested right? Are you dosing anything? Do you have another alk test kit to double check your measurement?

 

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[gws3]

There was that batch of bad reagents for the Hanna checkers that tested very high. Perhaps he has one of those. Otherwise the Hanna checker is by far the most accurate alk test out there. I have my method down to where I can get repeatable results within 1 ppm. But I always haver a salifert and lamotte kit on standby to verify if I get a bad bottle of reagent.

 

For the Hanna phosphate I agree the old reagents varied a lot. The new ULR seems to have improved reagent and more consistent results.

[Origami]

There was that batch of bad reagents for the Hanna checkers that tested very high. Perhaps he has one of those. Otherwise the Hanna checker is by far the most accurate alk test out there. I have my method down to where I can get repeatable results within 1 ppm. But I always haver a salifert and lamotte kit on standby to verify if I get a bad bottle of reagent.

 

For the Hanna phosphate I agree the old reagents varied a lot. The new ULR seems to have improved reagent and more consistent results.

Could be. But I had two vials of the recalled reagent (they were packaged with a seal that reacted with the reagent, changing its potency) and never had readings that far off the mark (or that unreasonable on first glance).

 

Like you, I keep other tests available to periodically cross check other kit results.

 

With any photo metric measuring device, you should repeatedly rinse the vial or viewing surface to remove traces of the last sample and the reagent (which can sometimes stain or etch glass). Do this immediately after each test. I will typically rinse three times for example using RODI or distilled water. Then, when taking a sample, I rinse the vial three times in tank water before taking my final sample to be tested. I also use a syringe to take my sample several inches below the surface so that I'm not picking up any unseen surface film that might affect results

[Nelsonqd2015]

Hi,

Thanks for your replies.I think the alkalinity got this high because I have been using CoralUp and CoralUp B. Since I don't have to many hard coral I guess the calcium wasn't been used as fast I thought. I stopped using it for now. I'm going to send my water to be checked with the Triton Labs ICP-OES Water Test- Full Panel Test Packet.

My corals look fine so far. This weekend I will make a 15% water change to see if the alkalinity starts to come down.

Will let you know what happens.

Thanks,

Nelson

[zygote2k]

Like you, I keep other tests available to periodically cross check other kit results.

 

With any photo metric measuring device, you should repeatedly rinse the vial or viewing surface to remove traces of the last sample and the reagent (which can sometimes stain or etch glass). Do this immediately after each test. I will typically rinse three times for example using RODI or distilled water. Then, when taking a sample, I rinse the vial three times in tank water before taking my final sample to be tested. I also use a syringe to take my sample several inches below the surface so that I'm not picking up any unseen surface film that might affect results

 

In my opinion,this is insanity. You already have a salifert or Lamotte kit to use as a reference to tell if your electronic kit is working correctly. Why even use the electronic test at all? As I stated before, it sounds more like a novelty item that doesn't measure up to real world demands due to the multiple ways that errors can be introduced.

In my opinion,this is insanity. You already have a salifert or Lamotte kit to use as a reference to tell if your electronic kit is working correctly. Why even use the electronic test at all? As I stated before, it sounds more like a novelty item that doesn't measure up to real world demands due to the multiple ways that errors can be introduced.

[Origami]

In my opinion,this is insanity. You already have a salifert or Lamotte kit to use as a reference to tell if your electronic kit is working correctly. Why even use the electronic test at all? As I stated before, it sounds more like a novelty item that doesn't measure up to real world demands due to the multiple ways that errors can be introduced.

It's the way you separate test kit errors from procedural errors. Look at test procedures authored by Scott Feldman and Randy Holmes Farley, and others, and you'll see a similar "insanity."

 

It takes me less time to make this measurement than it does to unpack and do the same test (properly) with any titration kit (save API, because their titration does not involve using syringes) which also require cleaning.

 

Insanity it might be, but I get consistent (and accurate) results and, as you're so fond of saying, if it works....

[Origami]

Hi,

Thanks for your replies.I think the alkalinity got this high because I have been using CoralUp and CoralUp B. Since I don't have to many hard coral I guess the calcium wasn't been used as fast I thought. I stopped using it for now. I'm going to send my water to be checked with the Triton Labs ICP-OES Water Test- Full Panel Test Packet. My corals look fine so far. This weekend I will make a 15% water change to see if the alkalinity starts to come down. Will let you know what happens.

 

Thanks,

Nelson

Nelson, there's a maxim in this hobby that goes, "Don't dose it if you can't test for it." I think it's likely that you followed a label that had you dosing calcium and alkalinity (aka two part) without adequate monitoring. Before you embark on a bunch of changes...

 

How does your tank look? (Don't change things too fast if things look good.)

 

What is your calcium level? (Test it to see if you're equally overdosed here.)

 

Are you seeing a white scale on things like your heater and submersible pumps? (That would be calcium carbonate.)

 

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[Origami]

 

 

 

In my opinion,this is insanity. You already have a salifert or Lamotte kit to use as a reference to tell if your electronic kit is working correctly. Why even use the electronic test at all? As I stated before, it sounds more like a novelty item that doesn't measure up to real world demands due to the multiple ways that errors can be introduced.

 

And, lastly, I keep other kits on hand (RSP, Salifert and some Seachem) to cross check and verify each other. Recently, for example, I've seen bad alkalinity results coming from an ITS system and have engaged their staff chemists on the anomaly. In this case, the test was providing good results for a large majority of tanks, but bad results for a small subset of them.

 

 

 

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[WheresTheReef]

This article from Randy Holmes-Farley gives advice about how to correct parameters. http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2002/11/chemistry

[Origami]

Also, Nelson, if you haven't sent your water into Triton yet, you may want to reconsider. After all, you already know that you're pretty far out of whack and will be making adjustments. By the time you get results back from Triton, you will have made adjustments and the test results will just be an expensive confirmation of what you already know. Save the test for when you're system is stable.

 

Over the years, I've seen successful tanks run by different approaches with alk from as low as 7 dKH to as high as 17 dKH (and a little more). That doesn't mean that any tank can run between those extremes, though. For example, a number of years ago, hobbyists with ULNS (ultra low nutrient systems) tanks saw the tips of their SPS burn when alkalinity reached above 10 dKH. In my tanks, I typically run anywhere from 8 to 10 dKH.

 

(To get from dKH to ppm, divide by 2.8 and multiply by 50. To get from ppm to dKH, divide by 50 and multiply by 2.8. The intermediate result in both cases is your alkalinity in meq/liter. 

[Nelsonqd2015]

Hi all,

 

I made a 20% water change tonight. After about an hour I did a alkalinity test and it went from 300 ppm to 288 ppm. I will continue doing water changes until the alkalinity is at a normal level. How long should I wait to make the next water change?

 

Thanks,

 

Nelson

[Origami]

A 20% water change that results in a 12 ppm change in alkalinity implies that your change water is coming in at 240 ppm (or 13.4 dKH). To me, that's kind of high. What kind of salt are you using? Are you using RO/DI? How are you testing salinity (refractometer, hydrometer) and is it calibrated?

 

You can perform another change almost immediately. However, it's best to aerate or agitate your newly mixed salt water for a few hours before using it. Waiting 24 hours is more than sufficient.

[smh254]

Hi all,

 

I made a 20% water change tonight. After about an hour I did a alkalinity test and it went from 300 ppm to 288 ppm. I will continue doing water changes until the alkalinity is at a normal level. How long should I wait to make the next water change?

 

Thanks,

 

Nelson

have you tried testing freshly made salt water?

 

 

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[Nelsonqd2015]

Hi all,

 

I just made a water check and the alkalinity has gone down to 268 ppm since the last water change on March 10, 2017. It was 288 ppm after the water change. I use Red Sea, Coral Pro Salt. I will continue monitoring until is is at a normal level.

 

Thanks,

 

Nelson

[Origami]

That's not much of a decline, really. Not for that much time at least. It's less than 1.2 dKH over 6 days. Slow, but in the right direction.

 

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[Nelsonqd2015]

Hi all,

 

I did a alkalinity check tonight and it has gone down to 248 ppm. Still high but on it's way down. This coming weekend I will do the 15% water change I do every two weeks. Will keep you posted.

 

Thanks all,

 

Nelson