Kalk and 2 part together?

[Djplus1]

Just curious if anyone here does both on their tanks concurrently? I currently use a kalk stirrer and like its ease of use, but am in the process of dropping my sump to the basement, where I will have more room for things like dosers (which have been in their boxes since Black Friday).

 

Basically, are there any horror stories about running both together?

[Sharkey18]

I think it's pretty much an either/or situation since they do the same thing.....not to mention you'll doubled your chances of overdosing your tank. 

 

But I've never used kalk, so I'm not 100% sure. 

[Djplus1]

From what I read in other forums, it seems like there is a decent population of people that do both, but most seem to do one or other. I figure running the kalk stirrer would cut the cost of running 2 part, but I could be wrong.

[GraffitiSpotCorals]

Normally kalk is run with a calcium reactor to balance the ph. You can use them however you want. There are risks involved in each situation you just need to know how to avoid them and use the method safely.

[Djplus1]

Normally kalk is run with a calcium reactor to balance the ph. You can use them however you want. There are risks involved in each situation you just need to know how to avoid them and use the method safely.

A Calcium reactor is not in consideration at this point. Just curious on using the 2 part dosing and Kalk Stirrer together.

[Origami]

Normally kalk is run with a calcium reactor to balance the ph. You can use them however you want. There are risks involved in each situation you just need to know how to avoid them and use the method safely.

 

A Calcium reactor is not in consideration at this point. Just curious on using the 2 part dosing and Kalk Stirrer together.

 

What Piper is trying to say is that kalk in your ATO is only good up to a point because of the low solubility of kalk powder (calcium hydroxide). When you can no longer meet demand with kalk in your ATO, additional supplementation or a change in supplementation approach is called for. The supplementation approach can add either a calcium reactor or two part to the picture.

 

Two part is capable of meeting the lowest to the highest levels of demand as you dose what you need to match consumption. The method is designed to supplement calcium, alkalinity and magnesium (when the 3rd part is included in the regimen). Balance dosing is achieved by regulating the volume of solution used. Over the long haul, without adequate water changes, a small ionic imbalance can result as sodium and chloride ions accumulate. The risk of this is low.

 

Kalk as an ATO supplement doses calcium and alkalinity in balanced proportions. It does not dose magnesium as kalk powder is calcium hydroxide. It has limited solubility in fresh water, thus the amount of dosing that you can do is limited by your daily evaporation. It has the positive effect of elevating pH. If overdosed, kalk can cause problems because of its highly alkaline nature.

 

Calcium reactors are capable of meeting the lowest to highest levels of demand. They work by dissolving old coral skeletons in acidic water and dosing the resulting effluent back into the tank. There are two consequences of this: a) The effluent is balanced with respect to calcium, alkalinity, magnesium, and any trace elements found in the reactor media since it comes from dissolved coral skeletons, and b) the tank pH can be driven down by the acidic effluent (from residual CO2 that must be blown off).

 

Sometimes Calcium reactors are paired with kalkwasser stirrers in order to offset the low pH problem. It's less common that kalk reactors are paired with two-part, but there's no reason not to do so as long as you account for and accept / mitigate the overdose risks.

[DuffyGeos]

I am curious, which way is the safest- where there is less chance of an overdoes of anything that will kill all the corals in your tank? I am sure each way- dosing or a calcium reactor, has its draw backs.

[Djplus1]

Good info Tom, as always. I don't think I'm in any real danger of overdosing my tank as I use a peristaltic pump and only keep a 5 gallon ATO anyway. That and the pump is so slow, it would probably take 8 hours of running non stop to empty the ATO, lol.

 

As I get closer to moving the sump I'll do some targeted testing to see what my consumption numbers really look like to see if I think I can get away with using both methods.

[Der ABT]

dosers are generall human error,,,aka leave the switch on.....just yeh. clogged lines, mix incorrect, timer stickes on or off (usually dosing pumps are VERy low voltage.

 

ca rx are usually human error as well, but a bad probe or selenoid can be an issue clogged line etc

 

so bother are about equal to risk if you ask me, though many argue dosers are safer.

 

i prefer CaRX and kalk but thats me. like everything in this hobby each can fail but in generally human error to blame.

[RW09903]

Dimitri, I was honestly about to ask the same question! I am in a similar situation as I am getting ready to install my dosing pumps in the cabinet.

 

 

My idea was to use the kalk stirrer as the main source and two part to compensate for the difference. This way, I use up all my kalk and will not have to use as much two part (please tell me if this is risky)

 

 

As a side note, I noticed in a youtube video that they use vinegar to help dissolve the calcium in kalk solution. Adding some vinegar to the DI reservoir will keep the calcium dissolved and helps neutralize the pH a little.

 

[YHSublime]

I am curious, which way is the safest- where there is less chance of an overdoes of anything that will kill all the corals in your tank? I am sure each way- dosing or a calcium reactor, has its draw backs.

 

I seriously looked into a calcium reactor before I started with my two BRS dosers, and I came to the conclusion that unless I had a huge tank stuffed with fast growing acros, subbing for 100ml a day of solution for calc and alk, that dosers would serve just fine. Down the road, I will make that big investment, but for now, my consumption is still only 22ml a day.

 

Good info Tom, as always. I don't think I'm in any real danger of overdosing my tank as I use a peristaltic pump and only keep a 5 gallon ATO anyway. That and the pump is so slow, it would probably take 8 hours of running non stop to empty the ATO, lol.

 

As I get closer to moving the sump I'll do some targeted testing to see what my consumption numbers really look like to see if I think I can get away with using both methods.

 

I had an incident recently in which I some how turned my doser for calc to "on." I upped my calcium to 500+ from about the 400 that it was. Knocked my DKH down by about a point, but it could have been worse, and been the other way around. I guess what I'm trying to say is, I could have very easily missed it, and it probably would have taken about 8 hours to drain, so I wouldn't rely on that fact alone as a fail-safe.

 

dosers are generall human error,,,aka leave the switch on.....just yeh. clogged lines, mix incorrect, timer stickes on or off (usually dosing pumps are VERy low voltage.

 

ca rx are usually human error as well, but a bad probe or selenoid can be an issue clogged line etc

 

so bother are about equal to risk if you ask me, though many argue dosers are safer.

 

i prefer CaRX and kalk but thats me. like everything in this hobby each can fail but in generally human error to blame.

 

Yours would be one tank in which I would think a CaRX makes more sense than dosers. You would burn the pumps out before you saw any real benifit, but most of us don't have acro packed tanks like a boss!

[Origami]

Safest? Any time that you dose with automation, there's a chance of error. It's about managing risk and monitoring the signs.

 

Kalk can cause wide swings in pH. The way to avoid the problem is to never have enough kalkwasser on hand / available to the system that there's a problem. For example, one rule might be to never put more than a weeks worth of kalk in the stirrer. Using a peristaltic pump can help to avoid big swings and overdosing, but might not (if the stirrer were close to your sump, for example) help if you accidentally tipped the stirrer over into the sump. You laugh. It's happened. You can also use a pH probe to shut down the kalk stirrer's pump if the pH goes to high.

 

Calcium reactors can acidify your tank if not controlled. They are set-and-forget devices, and that can lead to problems of their own when you just accept that it's working and become complacent. For example, if you only have to make adjustments or changes once every six months, then you may not notice when your CO2 cylinder goes empty. Or when the reactor's recirculation pump bites the dust.

 

Two part is a simplified approach to the Balling Method that does not involve much in the way of trace elements. Again, overdosing is a risk - just as with the other methods. Also, unlike the other two, it is not an inherently balanced method. Thus, if you calculate wrong or if something goes wrong in just one channel, you can wind up with unbalanced chemistry. In my opinion, this is also a strength of two-part, it can be used to correct imbalances.

 

"Safest" is not so much about the method you choose here, but of the way you understand and address the risks before they become problems.

[BowieReefer84]

If you are running with kalk now and it is meeting your demands there is no need to change.  If it's not able to keep up that is when you would need to switch to two part (or reactor).

 

I have my skimmer air intake hooked to C02 absorbing media reactor that turns from white to purple as it is exausted.  My tank is in the basement and I take this measure to keep PH up.

 

I also use B-Ionic two part as they claim it contains some trace minerals VS a BRS recipe which as Tom noted likely contains no trace minerals.

[Djplus1]

If you are running with kalk now and it is meeting your demands there is no need to change.  If it's not able to keep up that is when you would need to switch to two part (or reactor).

 

I have my skimmer air intake hooked to C02 absorbing media reactor that turns from white to purple as it is exausted.  My tank is in the basement and I take this measure to keep PH up.

 

I also use B-Ionic two part as they claim it contains some trace minerals VS a BRS recipe which as Tom noted likely contains no trace minerals.

I get that. It's not questioning IF I need to graduate on to 2 part, but can I/should I use both at the same time when I set up for 2 part dosing.

[GraffitiSpotCorals]

Tom props to you and the time you spend explaining things in great detail!

 

Side note a calcium reactor only keeps up mag if you use dolemite rocks correct?

[Origami]

Tom props to you and the time you spend explaining things in great detail!

 

Side note a calcium reactor only keeps up mag if you use dolemite rocks correct?

No. Magnesium will be supplemented if the media in the reactor is from coral skeletons. The reason is that anywhere from 2 to 5 percent of the calcified skeleton is composed of magnesium. The exact percentage depends on coral species, origin, and other factors.  Adding dolomite can bring the percentage of magnesium up in the effluent and is often done with some media which may be low in magnesium. (FYI: I supplement the media in my calcium reactor with dolomite.)

 

Calcium reactors are the ultimate in recycling (figuratively speaking): You're dissolving old coral skeletons to form new.

[zygote2k]

Don't forget- Kalk delivers balanced cal and alk but the tank uses cal and alk at different rates. Using kalk alone BITD resulted in skewed cal/alk ratio and then supplements would be added to correct this imbalance.

Using 2 part allows you to fine tune the alk/cal based upon the actual consumption of either component. This is why 2 part is the easiest to use.

In all of the maintenance tanks that need A/C, I use a medical doser to deliver 2 part because it's simply the most reliable and trouble free approach. I only visit these tanks 2-4 times per month and reliability is a must.

Ask yourself before you put a device into operation if you could leave it alone and not worry about it for 2 weeks.

[Origami]

Don't forget- Kalk delivers balanced cal and alk but the tank uses cal and alk at different rates. Using kalk alone BITD resulted in skewed cal/alk ratio and then supplements would be added to correct this imbalance.

Using 2 part allows you to fine tune the alk/cal based upon the actual consumption of either component. This is why 2 part is the easiest to use.

In all of the maintenance tanks that need A/C, I use a medical doser to deliver 2 part because it's simply the most reliable and trouble free approach. I only visit these tanks 2-4 times per month and reliability is a must.

Ask yourself before you put a device into operation if you could leave it alone and not worry about it for 2 weeks.

True. In the long term, a tank can use calcium and alkalinity at very slightly different rates. This is largely dependent upon the mix of coral species and other calcifying organisms. By far, most of the calcium and alkalinity are consumed in the dominant process

 

1 part calcium + 2 parts alkalinity ==> 1 part calcium carbonate

 

Ca + 2 HCO3 ==> CaCO3 + 2 H2O

 

This ratio is fixed (remember stoichiometry in chemistry?). However, in practical application, sometimes a magnesium (or even a  less common Strontium) ion will substitute in for a calcium ion, resulting in a very, very slightly higher rate of alkalinity consumption.The amount of this difference appears to vary by coral species.

 

The end result is that while you can simplify consumption using the fixed ratio of 1 meq per liter (or 2.8 dKH) of alkalinty for every 20 ppm of calcium consumed, the exact ratio may vary resulting in between 19 and 20 ppm of calcium consumed for every meq/liter of alk used. This means that, from time to time, you will likely have to add a little baking soda to the water to bring alkalinity back up.

 

I find it easier to remember the fixed ratio to provide the theoretical starting point and the fact that I may need to fine tune the balance every once in a while.

 

There are other reasons that calcium and alkalinity consumption varies from the 1:20 rule. Here's a reference for those of you that like to read about these things.