howaboutme January 22, 2014 Author Share January 22, 2014 I personally believe the reason some people have problems chasing low numbers in terms of n03/po4 is that they starve their systems to achieve it. The tanks I've enjoyed the most are ones that have a high nutrient input (food/plankton/etc) and high export. I'm starting to see evidence of this too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharkey18 January 22, 2014 Share January 22, 2014 I just read through that thread over the past few days. It's got a lot of good points but never says "phosphate doesn't matter". The fact is there are some tanks that can grow fantastic sps with higher than "optimal" phosphate readings. The skeptic will ask what does this mean? To me it means that we still have a lot to learn about keeping captive coral. Obviously phosphate is important, but clearly "low phosphate, low nitrate" is not the entire story. What else is happening on our water? What co-factor that we are NOT measuring might affect how sps tolerates phosphate? That doesn't mean low phosphate isn't the way to go, I have been chasing a lower phosphate level for the last several months. But the fact that there are more than a few nice sps tanks running with high phosphate just means that low phosphate alone is clearly not the only factor in the coral / phosphate story. Personally, I am a huge fan of observation. If my tank looks good, healthy growing, colorful coral I am not going to stress too much about the numbers, however I am not going to ignore them either. Observe, act, observe, act on and on and on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
howaboutme January 22, 2014 Author Share January 22, 2014 First...+1 on Sharkey18's comment. So..I read his link to his article in Reef Hobbyist magazine about the history of his tank. It then reminded me that we already talked about him. In fact, it was Isaac himself that posted this article about a near disaster Rich had: http://wamas.org/forums/topic/61870-reefing-failure/ A few other notes regarding the tank: - runs a calc reactor - does 20% wc every 2 MONTHS!! - uses kalk from ATO (see link above) - uses a faux sandbed, switched from DSB (no sandbed to bind the PO4??) but does have a 20G tank for a RDSB - started w/ a fuge but got rid of it, not needed as corals weren't affected - NO3 at or below 20ppm - tries to keep alk at 3 meg/l Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roni January 22, 2014 Share January 22, 2014 BTW, not that I advocate this but my tank has been running at 0.1-0.3 p04 and 10 no3 for the last 6-9 months. While not as nice as Rich's tank, the color and growth are good enough for my enjoyment. They may be better with lower nutrients but I've stopped aggressively trying to drop my po4. I feed a fair amount and like having lots of fish so I'm willing to take the tradeoff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharkey18 January 23, 2014 Share January 23, 2014 Sure looks good to me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BowieReefer84 January 23, 2014 Share January 23, 2014 Roni... you know you are out of room when you are mounting corals in the middle of a setosa colony! sigh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
howaboutme January 23, 2014 Author Share January 23, 2014 Roni, love the tank! How old is it? When you say you've stopped aggressively to lower PO4, do you mean you don't run GFO? What's your maintenance schedule? Thanks for those pictures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roni January 23, 2014 Share January 23, 2014 Sure looks good to me! thanks Roni... you know you are out of room when you are mounting corals in the middle of a setosa colony! sigh. lol. too much orange there so I figured I'd mount another color. Actually do that a fair amount over my faster growing pieces and then keep epoxying to prevent them from growing up. Roni, love the tank! How old is it? When you say you've stopped aggressively to lower PO4, do you mean you don't run GFO? What's your maintenance schedule? Thanks for those pictures. thanks, about 2 years old. i used to run lacl and have run rowa a lot. i've basically been too busy with work/kid/impending new kid to do that but haven't noticed a lot of improvement. i definitely saw an improvement from dropping p04 from 0.4-0.5 to about 0.15-0.2 now though. schedule is 10% weekly wc, clean skimmer cup and empty swabbie 2 x week, change carbon when i get a chance (about every other month) and harvest from ATS and fuge weekly. Other then that, it's feed 4-7 times a day (basically, whenever I walk by). I've also been feeding a little more then normal since I have some new angels hanging out in the frag tank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
howaboutme January 23, 2014 Author Share January 23, 2014 thanks, about 2 years old. i used to run lacl and have run rowa a lot. i've basically been too busy with work/kid/impending new kid to do that but haven't noticed a lot of improvement. i definitely saw an improvement from dropping p04 from 0.4-0.5 to about 0.15-0.2 now though. schedule is 10% weekly wc, clean skimmer cup and empty swabbie 2 x week, change carbon when i get a chance (about every other month) and harvest from ATS and fuge weekly. Other then that, it's feed 4-7 times a day (basically, whenever I walk by). I've also been feeding a little more then normal since I have some new angels hanging out in the frag tank. Thanks for the info. I just browsed your build thread. I assume your big fat new skimmer helps? Did you get a chance to set up your genesis? You mentioned it on the first page... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roni January 23, 2014 Share January 23, 2014 Thanks for the info. I just browsed your build thread. I assume your big fat new skimmer helps? Did you get a chance to set up your genesis? You mentioned it on the first page... skimmer helps. I have a ton of nutrient export and I siphon detritus out of the sump/frag tank/display nearly weekly. However, still haven't been able to get the nutrients to the magic numbers. Maybe one day I'm lazy. The genesis still sits unused in my fish closet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharkey18 January 23, 2014 Share January 23, 2014 I am experiencing the same thing as Roni. My phosphates were in the .3 to .4 range for months. Most of my sps died and what was left was brown. My phosphates are now around .14 and things are looking MUCH better. Everything is coloring up and growing again. I am still trying to get a slightly lower phosphate level, I would love to be under .1, but perhaps we have a little more flexibility than we thought and a range of .11 -.15 isn't so bad after all? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
howaboutme January 23, 2014 Author Share January 23, 2014 (edited) However, still haven't been able to get the nutrients to the magic numbers. Maybe one day If there is one conclusion, it may be that there really isn't a magic number. Every tank will be different. Follow your tank, not someone else's tank because: ....perhaps we have a little more flexibility than we thought.... Edited January 23, 2014 by howaboutme Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gws3 January 26, 2014 Share January 26, 2014 Good read. I have recently turned my GFO reactor off. My water volume has increased over the last few years, but I still only feed the main tank and not very much. I think some of my SPS were growing slower and had less polyp extension due to not enough nutrients. I am going to try increasing my nutrient import, and balancing that with increased water changes. I now have a auto water change system set up. I'll see how it goes over the next few months and monitor phosphate levels. Since I dose two part I think the speed of my peristaltic pump is a good measure of SPS growth, since I turned off GFO it has gone up about 10%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
howaboutme January 26, 2014 Author Share January 26, 2014 Not sure if any is following that thread (it was off topic for a while) but the latest tests by Rich for his tanks show NO3 at 100.7 and PO4 at 1.392. The numbers were so outrageous that's he's double checking those numbers with another test. I would find it hard to believe he would have a NO3 of 100 but then again he only does a 20% wc every 2 months.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
howaboutme February 7, 2014 Author Share February 7, 2014 A new article by Rich Ross: http://www.reefsmagazine.com/forum/reefs-magazine/159813-skeptical-reefkeeping-ix-test-kits-chasing-numbers-phosphate.html For those that are clearly busier than I am at work this morning, here's a synopsis : He argues, amongst other things, that we are limited by our test kits in our ability to accurately maintain a certain number in our tanks. Not only is he talking about the margin of error by also by the methods we use and the preconceived notions we may have while testing. All of these issues, and others, contribute to the manipulation of our tanks, which he argues is the downfall. Sometimes reefkeepers fall into the trap of ‘chasing numbers’ – trying to adjust water quality to reach a goldilocks zone. A major problem with this approach is that it requires an aquarist to make nearly constant alterations to water quality based on small derivations from the standard parameter ‘set point’; often these alteration are performed manually by the addition of buffers, additives and potions. With such a high maintenance methodology, sooner or later something tends to go wrong – such as an accidental overdose of some chemical to the aquarium, which then leads to a cascade of far more serious problems. However, precise control over many water quality parameters in an aquarium is both unnecessary and impossible given the inherent imprecision associated with normal, hobbyist test kits. For instance, it makes little sense to spend time and money trying to lower your phosphate reading from 0.06 to 0.05 ppm, partly because the effective difference between the two numbers is so small, but more importantly, chasing numbers can be problematic because of the inherent limitations in testing methodology; it is quite possible that the 0.05 and the 0.06 ppm results could come from water samples with literally the same phosphate concentration About test accuracy and technique (I know it applies to me): It makes a big difference to the result if you measure water levels in the test kit vials from the base of the meniscus or from the top of the meniscus. It makes a big difference if you measure the amount of reagent in the dosing syringe from the top of the plunger or the bottom of the plunger. It makes a big difference as to when you determine the titration end point. During a titration, do you assume that you’ve reached the end point when you see the testing sample change color? Start to change color? Stabilize to the changed color? It makes a big difference to the test results that the tests are run using the same techniques every time, as small changes in methodology can substantially impact the final test result. and Some reefkeepers will retest a water sample if they initially get a result that they don’t like, and will keep testing until they get one they do like. However, the flipside is often not true – people tend not to retest a sample when they get an initial reading that they do like. This is called conformation bias, looking for the result you already want, and it is a pitfall to avoid because the result has been chosen rather than determined. On natural, nutrient rich (high PO4) reefs: Now let’s consider the other side of the coin: phosphate concentrations on naturally high-nutrient reefs. Most high-nutrient coral reefs occur in areas of upwelling, especially those in the Eastern Tropical Pacific, the Central Pacific, near the equator, the Arabian Sea, and a few other locations... ....On these reefs a typical phosphate concentration might be on the order of 0.3-0.5 µM, or about 0.03-0.05 ppm, but phosphate concentration can occasionally reach values of 0.9 µM (0.09 ppm) and even as high as 1.5 µM (0.15 ppm) for short periods of time (Szmant, 2002)....... .....One might initially assume that these reefs should be in very poor condition, choked by algae, yet some of them are among the healthiest in the world. This good health is likely at least partly related to the fact that these reefs are very remote and receive few direct, human impacts (Sandin et al., 2008). Again, the point is no manipulation. And about the concentration of iron: Now consider the case of the recently reported “black reefs” (Kelly et al., 2012). The Line Islands straddle the equator, due south of Hawai‘i. Due to equatorial upwelling, many of these reefs fall into the category of high-nutrient reefs, yet the more remote of these reefs are very healthy.... ....What has been shown convincingly is that many of these regions have relatively modest amounts of algae because there is insufficient available iron, which is a critical micronutrient. Hence, the algae in these regions can’t grow overly fast in spite of the high nutrients, including phosphate, because there is not enough iron.... ....It appears that elevated nutrients, including phosphate, are not a problem for the reefs, as long as algal growth and disease-causing microbes are limited by some other factor—in this case, the availability of iron. About an experiment dosing nutrients into the Great Barrier Reef: This experiment consisted of dosing concentrated solutions of ammonium and phosphate salts to coral microatolls at low tide over a 2 year timeframe, and assessing a large variety of responses by the various reef organisms..... .....In particular, under phosphate enrichment several coral species experienced higher growth rates. Hmmm… Skeletal micro-density also tended to increase slightly at branch tips for Acropora longicyanthis under phosphate enrichment, though bulk skeletal density tended to decreases slightly. Hmmm… Based on earlier work, and based on what we thought we knew about the effects of phosphate on coral growth, these results were not at all what was expected. And other PO4 dosing studies in nature: Two other recent studies have really begun to blow the lid off of what we thought we knew about the effects of elevated phosphate on corals. Godinot et al. (2011) examined the effects of phosphate concentration (0.00, 0.05, and 0.25 ppm) on growth and various physiological responses of the coral Stylophora pistillata. Similarly, Dunn et al. (2012) examined the effects of phosphate enrichment (0.09, 0.2, and 0.5 ppm) on the coral Acropora muricata. Both of these studies were performed in aquaria where at least some of the negative, indirect effects of nutrient enrichment which can occur on a real coral reef, such as algal overgrowth, could be minimized. Surprisingly, in both studies the corals grew fastest at the highest phosphate concentrations tested (0.25 and 0.5 ppm, respectively). In fact, the rate of coral growth for both species increased linearly with the phosphate concentration. At least for A. muricata, skeletal density was also lowest for the rapidly-growing corals in the high phosphate concentration, though reduced skeletal density during periods of rapid growth is common for many corals. Hence, these corals were growing fastest and appeared to be “happier” at phosphate concentrations on the order of 5-10x greater than the commonly recommended upper limit for reef tanks, or about 10-50x the phosphate concentration typically observed on most coral reefs. and in conclusion: One of the things we are saying that it is important to understand is that the reality of water chemistry testing comes with inherent uncertainty, and that chasing numbers can be detrimental and not effective. Constantly tweaking water parameters can be detrimental to aquarium life, as well as costly. Ok, well ...with the amount of quotes I posted, you mind as well read the entire article! haha. Hope this is informative to everyone. Again, this is not a right or wrong issue. It's information that helps us formulate our own opinions of how to run our tanks. Keeping an open mind from what we're used to seeing or reading may contribute to an overall healthier tank. It may save you money too. 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ctenophore February 7, 2014 Share February 7, 2014 We should get him here to speak on this topic at an upcoming meeting. It would be highly relevant to the general membership. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharkey18 February 7, 2014 Share February 7, 2014 +1 for a speaker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
howaboutme February 7, 2014 Author Share February 7, 2014 We should get him here to speak on this topic at an upcoming meeting. It would be highly relevant to the general membership. +1 for a speaker Officers have been silent on this but I hope they are listening... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanM February 7, 2014 Share February 7, 2014 Thanks for watching and following up with the article. I'd also really like to hear Rich Ross talk. Not as cool as if we accidentally got Rick Ross to come talk to the club, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Origami February 7, 2014 Share February 7, 2014 Officers have been silent on this but I hope they are listening... Silent? It helps not to post a speaker suggestion in a thread on phosphates (no matter how relevant he is to the topic). It gets lost easily. I'll pass the suggestion on to our speaker coordinator to add to the queue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Origami February 7, 2014 Share February 7, 2014 Rich is now on the list for consideration for an upcoming meeting. We've yet to work out schedule details, though. We should get him here to speak on this topic at an upcoming meeting. It would be highly relevant to the general membership. +1 for a speaker Officers have been silent on this but I hope they are listening... Thanks for watching and following up with the article. I'd also really like to hear Rich Ross talk. Not as cool as if we accidentally got Rick Ross to come talk to the club, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Origami February 7, 2014 Share February 7, 2014 He is highly entertaining and intelligent. Any of you who saw his intro performance at the last macna banquet will know exactly what I'm talking about. That was some performance, wasn't it? I wonder if he would do it for us? Would we need to fly Tony up, too, to accurately recount the whole show? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
howaboutme February 7, 2014 Author Share February 7, 2014 Silent? It helps not to post a speaker suggestion in a thread on phosphates (no matter how relevant he is to the topic). It gets lost easily. I'll pass the suggestion on to our speaker coordinator to add to the queue. Haha...Yeah, the oxymoronic (spell says its not a word, I say yes it is) thread title makes people want to skip the thread. I understand. Looking forward to seeing if we can get him. Maybe we can have a Vargas stand in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCReefer1964 February 7, 2014 Share February 7, 2014 Maybe by packing out my tank, I've guaranteed success. I agree with Alan, I'll just buy more corals! We all know. You are well on your way!!!! YHSublime Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YHSublime February 7, 2014 Share February 7, 2014 We all know. You are well on your way!!!! YHSublime Not yet Pizzaguy has me beat. By a long ways. It would be interesting if he chimed in. He wasn't seeing a lot of SPS growth after running Biopellets, undetected phosphates. He took them offline, and instantly started seeing growth with the slight rise up in phosphates. I think I have that story correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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