How much do you worry about levels during cycle?

[AlanM]

I've changed out 30g of water (out of a total of about 90g) twice now to try to keep ammonia and nitrite below 5ppm.  I know the cycle is progressing because I see nitrites and nitrates showing up and increasing a lot.  Ammonia seems to be holding fairly steady, so there seems to be a source of it somewhere in the rock I put in even though it looked totally dry and clean. 

 

How much do any of you worry about nitrite and nitrate and ammonia during your initial cycles with dry rock?  Should I just let it go for a week and assume that the bacteria will work it out or keep doing water changes to keep NH and NO2 below the levels that Dr Tim seems to want? 

 

I'm not running the skimmer at all because I want the nitrogen and stuff in there for seeding my burgeoning bacteria population, so eventually all this should be nitrate. 

[epleeds]

when i did my cycle, i didn't do anything with the tank except for top off for 6 weeks.  Then i did a large water change (50 gallons) on a 200 gallon tank.  4 weeks later, i completed another 50 gallon water change.  The tank cycled on its own.

[Origami]

If cycling from dead base, then I wouldn't worry much. If cycling from live rock that has a lot of life on it (plants, sponges, etc.) - such as the kind of stuff you can get from Tampa Bay Saltwater - I would do water changes to never let the ammonia level exceed 1 ppm because of the cascading killing effect it can have on that life which in turn just raises the ammonia level even further.

[AlanM]

I wonder if that's what is going on with my seemingly constant small amount of ammonia showing.  I only have 3.5 pounds that was live rock from Congressional out of about 40 total that was dry.

 

The constant level of ammonia, if it stays down below 5 or so, seems like it might be ideal for cycling because it will build up a good population of bacteria. 8)

[Cliff Puckstable]

When did you add the "live rock" from Congressional?

[Jon Lazar]

The high ammonia may be good for the bacteria, but it's bad for all the critters living in and on the rock.

 

 

I wonder if that's what is going on with my seemingly constant small amount of ammonia showing.  I only have 3.5 pounds that was live rock from Congressional out of about 40 total that was dry.

 

The constant level of ammonia, if it stays down below 5 or so, seems like it might be ideal for cycling because it will build up a good population of bacteria. 8)

[AlanM]

When did you add the "live rock" from Congressional?

 

I added it Tuesday, July 23.

[lnevo]

Stop wasting salt. Let your tank cycle. Then you could do a huge water change. Removing ammonia is going to slow down your cycle.

[AlanM]

Stop wasting salt. Let your tank cycle. Then you could do a huge water change. Removing ammonia is going to slow down your cycle.

 

Salt, water, and DI resin, all three.  This is the first one I've actually gotten wet, and I'm already surprised by how fast the salt bucket gets empty.

[firecrackerbob]

im cycling a second tank right now- its just getting topped off when needed and I threw some cheato in there with a grow light over it... I havent and wont check levels till all the funk in there dies off- probably 2mo or so... but thats just how i roll.

[lnevo]

Salt, water, and DI resin, all three. This is the first one I've actually gotten wet, and I'm already surprised by how fast the salt bucket gets empty.

I highly recommend just waiting at this point and save the salt, water, and DI resin although if you have all that extra, you could send me some

[AlanM]

im cycling a second tank right now- its just getting topped off when needed and I threw some cheato in there with a grow light over it... I havent and wont check levels till all the funk in there dies off- probably 2mo or so... but thats just how i roll.

 

Any skimmer running on it?

[howaboutme]

I highly recommend just waiting at this point and save the salt, water, and DI resin although if you have all that extra, you could send me some

 

A couple of water changes isn't going to hurt. It's good to get your wc routine down w/o livestock. What's the rush? You don't have to do it routinely though.

 

Just be patient and let your tank naturally bring your NH3 and NO2 down. Once those go to zero, your NO3 will jump. Once that happens, your cycled (but I would continue to add NH3 source like ghost feeding for a week to make sure) and you do a large wc to bring NO3 down. I don't think you needed the extra push in Dr. Tims. I cycled w/ a 5.5 lbs of fully cured LR from LFS versus 30 lbs of reefcleaners rock and just ghost fed. Because of the cured LR, cycle took about 2 weeks but I waited 3...

 

And yes, I would run the skimmer. Not only does it break it in during a period when you don't truly need it (and you can tinker w/ it, etc) but you will be ahead of the game in terms of taking out the bad stuff.

Edited August 2, 2013 by howaboutme

[mr.x-ray]

If cycling from dead base, then I wouldn't worry much. If cycling from live rock that has a lot of life on it (plants, sponges, etc.) - such as the kind of stuff you can get from Tampa Bay Saltwater - I would do water changes to never let the ammonia level exceed 1 ppm because of the cascading killing effect it can have on that life which in turn just raises the ammonia level even further.

Exactly. If cycling LR some people need to do near daily water changes and run a good skimmer. The critters in the LR cannot handle the high ammonia and nitrite just like any other. If you do not do water changes you will kill nearly every organism and with that you might as well just start with all dry rock.

[AlanM]

Thanks for the advice. I am appreciating the WC practice, actually. Figuring out what powerhead can push it where through what hose and what needs to get shut off when draining the sump, and where the Brutes should go, etc. No livestock is going in until late september at the earliest, but once my ammonia drops and I get a little fur on the rocks and sand I would like to start adding microfauna like pods and maybe worms in advance of livestock.

 

I will leave it alone and stop testing so much. The water is nice and clear, and the lights are fun to play with 8)

[mr.x-ray]

I think all of us cannot leave a new tank alone for more than 5 minutes. I just buy the cheap 5in1 test strips to get a daily or so idea what is going on. Not perfect but works for me.

[Origami]

Again, the right way really depend on what you start with. If the rock is full of higher life forms (plants, sponges, crustaceans, etc.) , letting the tank get into a self-propagating upward spiral of elevated ammonia just kills good stuff off, adding to the problem. It's akin to leaving a dead fish to decay and watching others die and letting them rot too. Meaning it's nonsensical. However, if you start with live rock the pretty much only had bacteria and dead organics on it, then cycle away as there's not much else that you can kill in that case.

 

For the first protocol, head over to Tampa Bay Saltwater and read Richard's advice there. The second protocol is used when you're starting with fairly boring rock and bacteria.

 

 

 

(Sent from my phone.)

 

 

[AlanM]

Right. Thanks, Tom. I had planned to do Tampa Bay Saltwater rock, but just turned out to not be able to afford the nearly $2k the package would have cost me. So I decided to use the rock I had burned all the goop off last fall in a vat of muriatic acid.

 

I picked up those few "live" rocks from congressional mostly for the bacteria count, not the life that was on it which seemed to me mostly little black specks and a bit of coralline algae.

[Origami]

Right. Thanks, Tom. I had planned to do Tampa Bay Saltwater rock, but just turned out to not be able to afford the nearly $2k the package would have cost me. So I decided to use the rock I had burned all the goop off last fall in a vat of muriatic acid.

 

I picked up those few "live" rocks from congressional mostly for the bacteria count, not the life that was on it which seemed to me mostly little black specks and a bit of coralline algae.

Don't worry about the ammonia then. Just let it cycle through. I started out a long time ago with TBS rock. Yes, it's expensive. That's why you wouldn't want to treat it the same and risk cooking the life out of it.

 

(Sent from my phone.)

 

 

[AlanM]

Well, since I cant stop myself from testing, ammonia is now nearly nonexistent at about .3ppm just since last night. Posting here seems to have fixed that part.

 

Nitrites high at over 40 and so are nitrates, but can only decrease without intervention if there is no ammonia feeding them. Im going to wait for them to go down over the next few days, do a water change, and let it ride for a while.

[lnevo]

Wait till 0 nitrites! Do you have an ammonia source in there? Cocktail shrimp? Or relying on die off? I would ghost feed a bit till you see 0 nitrite.

[AlanM]

Ok. I do have ammonium chloride drops. Now that ammonia went to zero you think I should keep it up a bit and keep generating nitrites until the nitrites go to zero? Seems like they will drop faster if they arent being created.

[lnevo]

They will stay at 0 or close. You now have ammonia eating bacteria. You want then to thrive as the nitrite ones develop.

[AlanM]

So I'm still doing test in defiance of everyone's advice.  Partially it was to learn how to use the tests well, partially because I enjoy it and have little else to do with the tank at the moment.

 

My ammonia is still around 0 even though I added a few ammonia chloride drops last night to get up to .5 ppm.  So I think those bacteria are working now.

 

My nitrites, however, are sky high.  So high that I had to do a 10:1 dilution to measure them on the scale, and I got around 70ppm. 

 

I measured nitrates with the Red Sea Pro test using their "high scale" range which calls for a 15:1 dilution and got 12ppm.  So if the test isn't getting thrown off by the sky high nitrite level, then some nitrite is getting converted. 

 

I'm wondering if nitrite at 70ppm is too high for the next phase of the cycle to work.  Online folks have said that with really high nitrite levels it's just too high for the little guys to start reproducing and the cycle can get "stuck" until you bring them down.  Dr Tim wants both ammonia and nitrite to stay lower than 5ppm for his goop to work right.  Should I try to lower nitrite with a really big water change or just leave it alone?

[paul b]

I worry about levels about as much as I worry about Paris Hilton's dog.