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[Origami]

Yes. It's very good in my opinion. The operating principle is straightforward. And, the guys are good at making improvements as needed (and keeping things affordable).

 

Nothing is failsafe. (That's the engineer in me speaking.) Design accordingly. However, that said, my Avast ATO has been more reliable than others I've owned. A while back, Chad wrote up an article in one of our newsletters on fault-tolerant design considerations using the ATO setup that I had in my last home as a model for discussion. You can find that article here.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by a "lip." Most tanks with a rim have some sort of lip. It works very well with them. (Most of the time, the sensor tube is placed in the sump which is where the effect of evaporation is first seen.) You can also shorten the sensor tube as needed if it's convenient.

[howaboutme]

Yes. It's very good in my opinion. The operating principle is straightforward. And, the guys are good at making improvements as needed (and keeping things affordable).

 

Nothing is failsafe. (That's the engineer in me speaking.) Design accordingly. However, that said, my Avast ATO has been more reliable than others I've owned. A while back, Chad wrote up an article in one of our newsletters on fault-tolerant design considerations using the ATO setup that I had in my last home as a model for discussion. You can find that article here.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by a "lip." Most tanks with a rim have some sort of lip. It works very well with them. (Most of the time, the sensor tube is placed in the sump which is where the effect of evaporation is first seen.) You can also shorten the sensor tube as needed if it's convenient.

 

Thanks Tom, this is very helpful.

 

As for the lip of the tank, yes I'm talking about the black trim/brace that's around most rimmed tanks. Because the water level is very close to that rim (as opposed to a sump where the water level is much lower from the top) and with it turning in a bit, I was worried that there isn't enough room for the float thing to work properly or that I might have to lower the water level in the DT. That was my concern.

 

I was thinking of using something like the Tom's aqualifter in conjunction w/ the ATO. I just wonder it can get to the top of my DT from my stand. 30" doesn't seem like a lot. I wonder if it's measured from where the pump is located as opposed to where the air line is lowest in the reservoir????

 

I will read through that article link.

[howaboutme]

You can find that article here.

 

Wow! But from your previous posts here, it sounds like you've simplified your ATO setup?

[Origami]

Wow! But from your previous posts here, it sounds like you've simplified your ATO setup?

 

No, it's pretty much just that way. I'm on a well with lower pressure now, though. So I've had to make some adjustments in how I control the booster pump. The other thing that I've changed is where I used to simply run a timer to top off (you'd be surprised how even your evaporation rate is by season so you can essentially go open-loop on top off), it's now integrated with an Avast ATO sensor to keep the level where it needs to be.

 

Regarding the Avast sensor holder. It can be mounted submerged, but without further modification, it will require that the end of the sensor tube be submerged. The way I would deal with this in your situation is as shown in this diagram.

 

 

If the sensor holder on an Avast ATO needs to be set below the water line inside your tank, you can drill a line of holes at a fixed distance from the end of the tube. The holes then set the water level, leaving an area below the holes available for the submerged mount.

[howaboutme]

No, it's pretty much just that way. I'm on a well with lower pressure now, though. So I've had to make some adjustments in how I control the booster pump. The other thing that I've changed is where I used to simply run a timer to top off (you'd be surprised how even your evaporation rate is by season so you can essentially go open-loop on top off), it's now integrated with an Avast ATO sensor to keep the level where it needs to be.

 

Does this concept work like this:

 

Timer is plugged into the ATO relay box and the pump is plugged into the timer.

When ATO goes off, it turns on the timer, which then turns on the pump. At the same time, the pump is turned on, the timer starts its countdown. If the ATO shuts off the pump beforehand, timer stops and is irrelevant. If the timer goes off before the ATO, the timer shuts off the pump and then resets (or does it)? If it does reset and there's something wrong w/ the ATO, wouldn't the pump turn on again? Also, I didn't realize timers can stop and start and reset w/ the power being cut off. What kind of timer would work for this? I assume analog.

 

Regarding the Avast sensor holder. It can be mounted submerged, but without further modification, it will require that the end of the sensor tube be submerged. The way I would deal with this in your situation is as shown in this diagram.

 

If the sensor holder on an Avast ATO needs to be set below the water line inside your tank, you can drill a line of holes at a fixed distance from the end of the tube. The holes then set the water level, leaving an area below the holes available for the submerged mount.

 

Very helpful! I get everything except the holes. Does the sensor have holes already so if I need to mount below water line, the existing holes will not work therefore I need to add new holes? Is that the concept? I assume the holes are there for pressure?

 

I appreciate your time. I did post some of these questions and others on the Avast section so they can add their 2 cents on as well, though you seem like you're as much of an expert as anyone else.

[Origami]

No. You would need to add the holes (with a drill, most likely). You see, there's a pressure switch inside the part of the device that plugs into the wall (in the regular unit). There's a diaphragm inside the switch that deflects when the pressure in the sensor / tubing goes a certain small amount above ambient air pressure. (It's equal to about 1/4 to 1/2 inch of water, if I recall.) When the tube is out of the water, air pressure on both sides of the switch is the same and the switch is closed . This applies power to your ATO pump and water is pumped. This raises the water level near the sensor. Eventually, this water level covers the tube and, as the water level continues to rise, it compresses the air in the tube, raising the pressure in the tube. Ultimately, this causes the switch to open and the pump to stop.

 

When you drill the holes in the sensor tube, you are essentially changing the point at which the air in the sensor tube becomes trapped. With this modification, the part of the sensor tube that is below the holes (towards the normally open end) will no longer play a part in raising the pressure inside the sensor tube, but will only serve as a place to mechanically mount the sensor tube to the holder.

 

Take a look at this video found on Youtube. It shows the ATO in action and is really informative. (I just love these demo setups that Dan cooks up.) Anyway, watch closely how the water level in the left hand side of the setup rises until it covers the end of the sensor tube, resulting in a shut down of the top off pump. Then, watch the water level on the left side slowly drop (Dan drilled a small hole between the two sides of the demonstrator for this purpose.), eventually exposing the open end of the tube, which turns on the ATO pump again. As you can see, the water level changes about 1/4 to 1/2 inch between these two points.

 

Anyway, imagine a few holes drilled just above the holder (the holder shown is not their nano mount, but a regular mount), and imagine the holder is lowered so that it is slightly submerged, just below the drilled holes. Now, the water level will go up until it covers the holes before the ATO pump will shut off. In this way, you can operate this ATO with a sumberged holder.

 

 

[howaboutme]

I think I got it now, thanks! Soo much to learn...so little time. I appreciate you taking time to explain this complexity to me.

[Origami]

My pleasure, Jack.

[cbatkinson]

Does anyone know if the Avast unit will stop your pump from running dry if the ATO reservoir happens to be empty? I think the JBJ unit does that.

[mling]

Does anyone know if the Avast unit will stop your pump from running dry if the ATO reservoir happens to be empty? I think the JBJ unit does that.

 

The JBJ has a 2nd float for the reservoir to stop it from running dry,

[howaboutme]

Does anyone know if the Avast unit will stop your pump from running dry if the ATO reservoir happens to be empty? I think the JBJ unit does that.

 

I don't think so, that's why I was so interested in how fail safe the sensor is. I think a lot of people use it with the aqualifter pump because you can run it dry. And if I breaks, it's cheap to replace.

 

Sent from my SCH-I405 using Tapatalk 2

 

 

[Chad]

I use a Spectrapure liter meter pump with an accessory pump: one doses Kalk and the 2nd RODI water. I adjust the rate of the RODI component about once every 4-6 weeks to keep the sump level stable. Zero chance of a float sticking and killing my tank with either Kalk or hyposalinitiy.

 

+1, though I think the AVAST ATO is the best purpose-made unit out there (I use three of them in addition to the LM3 - one for my skimmate locker, one for my mixing tank, and one for my RO holding container).

[howaboutme]

Continuing my own ATO research and thought just continuing this post would be better so the OP and others can learn too.

 

While I await Avasts response to my questions from their thread, I'm wondering if anyone here has any experience w/ the products from autotopoff.com?

 

They get pretty good reviews elsewhere and have a small footprint, double-switch, float-based ATO for displays, which is my current situation.

 

Opinions? Thanks in advance.

[sachabballi reef]

Continuing my own ATO research and thought just continuing this post would be better so the OP and others can learn too.

 

While I await Avasts response to my questions from their thread, I'm wondering if anyone here has any experience w/ the products from autotopoff.com?

 

They get pretty good reviews elsewhere and have a small footprint, double-switch, float-based ATO for displays, which is my current situation.

 

Opinions? Thanks in advance.

no answers....but a question....is that a tomato in your avatar? lol

[Origami]

Continuing my own ATO research and thought just continuing this post would be better so the OP and others can learn too.

 

While I await Avasts response to my questions from their thread, I'm wondering if anyone here has any experience w/ the products from autotopoff.com?

 

They get pretty good reviews elsewhere and have a small footprint, double-switch, float-based ATO for displays, which is my current situation.

 

Opinions? Thanks in advance.

I've used them. In fact, these were my first ATO designs that I used. The problem I had related to float switch failure. The switch would fail and I'd buy replacements. After a while it just became easier to buy several of them and keep them on hand to fix failed ones. Reliability-wise, I've had better luck with the Avast ATO.

 

(Sent from my phone)

 

 

[howaboutme]

no answers....but a question....is that a tomato in your avatar? lol

 

Ha ha, yes, it's a tomato. It's my "lone tomato". I was playing w/ my new Nikon dslr many years ago w/ that shot. Thought it would be a cool avatar.

 

I've used them. In fact, these were my first ATO designs that I used. The problem I had related to float switch failure. The switch would fail and I'd buy replacements. After a while it just became easier to buy several of them and keep them on hand to fix failed ones. Reliability-wise, I've had better luck with the Avast ATO.

 

(Sent from my phone)

 

What were the problems w/ the float valve? Snails? Getting stuck? Wonder if they've evolved their design at all...

 

Thank you!

[Chad]

I'm with Tom in having used them before, but having them get stuck.

 

IME, it wasn't snails as the enclosure does a reasonable job at keeping them out. More, it's the general buildups that occur at air / water interfaces (combination of mineral deposits, biological deposits, and salt creep) and can cause sticking, that's why they offer and promote two switch systems - which does make it better....

 

I really think a pressure switch paired with a peristaltic pump is the best way to set up an ATO (like a liter meter III or avast switch with a BRS doser or similar).

[Origami]

What were the problems w/ the float valve? Snails? Getting stuck? Wonder if they've evolved their design at all...

It's not a float valve, it's a float switch that failed for me. The two are different devices. Snails weren't a problem for me. It was just that the switch would fail. And, more often than not, it was the lower switch which is closer to the water. (That's why they have backup switches mounted higher!) They try to seal the switches from the saltwater, but the integrity of this protection changes as the assembly ages. At some point, water, salt or something must seep in and ruin the switch. I've still got several switches in fact in my stockpile that I kept on hand as replacements, but which I no longer use since my ATO is no longer based on these devices.

[howaboutme]

I'm with Tom in having used them before, but having them get stuck.

 

IME, it wasn't snails as the enclosure does a reasonable job at keeping them out. More, it's the general buildups that occur at air / water interfaces (combination of mineral deposits, biological deposits, and salt creep) and can cause sticking, that's why they offer and promote two switch systems - which does make it better....

 

I really think a pressure switch paired with a peristaltic pump is the best way to set up an ATO (like a liter meter III or avast switch with a BRS doser or similar).

 

It's not a float valve, it's a float switch that failed for me. The two are different devices. Snails weren't a problem for me. It was just that the switch would fail. And, more often than not, it was the lower switch which is closer to the water. (That's why they have backup switches mounted higher!) They try to seal the switches from the saltwater, but the integrity of this protection changes as the assembly ages. At some point, water, salt or something must seep in and ruin the switch. I've still got several switches in fact in my stockpile that I kept on hand as replacements, but which I no longer use since my ATO is no longer based on these devices.

 

Thanks you all. So it sounds like it may suffer the same issues that all ATO's using this type of sensor have, like the JBJ as well??

[mling]

After all these years of carrying buckets of water, I finally bought a JBJ ATO about a month ago, just been to busy to hook it up.

After reading this post, I am having 2nd thoughts about an ATO. Is there anyone using an ATO for a long time that has not had an "incident" ?

 

or maybe I should ask "Anyone want to by a brand new JBJ ATO" ?

[monkiboy]

After all these years of carrying buckets of water, I finally bought a JBJ ATO about a month ago, just been to busy to hook it up.

After reading this post, I am having 2nd thoughts about an ATO. Is there anyone using an ATO for a long time that has not had an "incident" ?

 

or maybe I should ask "Anyone want to by a brand new JBJ ATO" ?

i have a JBJ ATO i used for about 20 months without problems. and picked one up recently for my sister's setup that i'm selling because she bought the same thing. i'd give it a go.

[yauger]

After all these years of carrying buckets of water, I finally bought a JBJ ATO about a month ago, just been to busy to hook it up.

After reading this post, I am having 2nd thoughts about an ATO. Is there anyone using an ATO for a long time that has not had an "incident" ?

 

or maybe I should ask "Anyone want to by a brand new JBJ ATO" ?

 

I've never had an issue with my tunze ato... worth the cost in my opinion

[mling]

i have a JBJ ATO i used for about 20 months without problems. and picked one up recently for my sister's setup that i'm selling because she bought the same thing. i'd give it a go.

 

Which option did you setup your JBJ ATO ? Mode B that has both sensors in the sump or Mode A that only has one sensor in the sump ?

[Origami]

After all these years of carrying buckets of water, I finally bought a JBJ ATO about a month ago, just been to busy to hook it up.

After reading this post, I am having 2nd thoughts about an ATO. Is there anyone using an ATO for a long time that has not had an "incident" ?

 

or maybe I should ask "Anyone want to by a brand new JBJ ATO" ?

It's still a good ATO. Just be aware that components do fail eventually and that it's good to have the model that has the backup switch mounted a little higher because eventually the lower one does fail. When you notice your sump running a little higher in that compartment (or a lot lower), the presumption is that the switch has failed and needs to be replaced.

[mling]

It's still a good ATO. Just be aware that components do fail eventually and that it's good to have the model that has the backup switch mounted a little higher because eventually the lower one does fail. When you notice your sump running a little higher in that compartment (or a lot lower), the presumption is that the switch has failed and needs to be replaced.

 

I think what is what JBJ ATO calls Mode B, where the 2 sensors are in the sump, one at the "max' level and the other at the "min" level. That does not let you have the 2nd sensor check to see it there is always water in the reservoir. But a burned out pump going bad is better than a wet hardwood flloor

Edited April 10, 2013 by mling