Dave W's 3000 gal plankton/reef tank

[Jager]

well fwiw i doubt your fish will not be well fed, however your efforts to culture food within the system means yo will likely see more natural feeding activity and food responses. also picky fish are liklier to do better as they can pick good quality live foods as well as flakes pellets etc.

 

AFAIK your system is similar to several older lagoon style algae scrubber tanks with large refugiums. they tended to fall out of style due to the yellowing tannins from the algae scrubbers not being maintained the way they do now (with weekly cleanings and not allowing algae to reenter the system easily.)

 

I think if/when you see this go live you may have one big issue. and that is water quality/ TDS. if you have a mass die off of copeopods and artemia etc, you may have a complete tank crash due to the massive ammonia bloom. I read about your ro system thoughts/plans, but I would suggest you look at going with a full ro/di system sized to handle at least a few hundred gallon sump area if you have a crash. then you can transfer fish and corals into the sump with clean water and work on fixing the main system. possibly keep one section separate from the rest of the system with a pump for flow, and just use that as your water change area normally, then turn it on to the rest of the system to do a W/C then cut it off after for a "QT/Quiet" tank. not for medications, but at least a backup for your massive project or starting area for sensitive fish which you can dose live foods from another sump.

 

HTH

 

edit guess i pushed us to page 12!.

Edited May 10, 2011 by Jager

[dave w]

I think if/when you see this go live you may have one big issue. and that is water quality/ TDS. if you have a mass die off of copeopods and artemia etc, you may have a complete tank crash due to the massive ammonia bloom. I read about your ro system thoughts/plans, but I would suggest you look at going with a full ro/di system sized to handle at least a few hundred gallon sump area if you have a crash. then you can transfer fish and corals into the sump with clean water and work on fixing the main system. possibly keep one section separate from the rest of the system with a pump for flow, and just use that as your water change area normally, then turn it on to the rest of the system to do a W/C then cut it off after for a "QT/Quiet" tank. not for medications, but at least a backup for your massive project or starting area for sensitive fish which you can dose live foods from another sump.

 

 

You have a great point. If the brine shrimp refugium converts half the daily detritus into nauplii before fecal pellets are removed to the plant refugium, I would have a tendency to double my fish load with lots of planktivores. Then if/when the shrimp culture crashes I have a display tank with twice the appropriate fish density. Thanks for bringing me back to earth and suggesting the backup plan.

 

Now for the shrimp details that will quickly put everyone to sleep.

 

Brine shrimp cultures tend to crash often. After starting a new batch from an algae bloomed tank, nauplii have 100% survival the first several days because algae is a high quality food. But soon the water changes color from deep green to clear as the algae is eaten. From this point brine shrimp are fed inert foods because algae is too expensive and so much is required. Typical inert foods are rice bran, soy and corn flour, or just about any agricultural waste product. These foods cause high bacteria levels. I'm not sure researchers ever found out if the artemia were eating the micronized particles or if they ate the bacteria that bloomed on the micronized particles.

 

In either case water quality becomes a serious issue because inert food easily pollutes the water if too much is added and because the rapid increase in artemia biomass required lots of food and an ever changing amount of food. So there is a narrow margin between too much food/fouling and starving animals in a rapidly increasing biomass.

 

For filtration they used large round plastic disks rotating on an axis. The attached bacteria gets oxygen from the air for a few seconds, then get nutrients from sumberging a few seconds. Another benefit to disks is that when bacteria got too thick they would simply slough off instead of clogging. That helped filtration but because the growing biomass required a lot of food which quickly polluted the water, batch culture systems proved to be easiest to clean and restart every 2-3 weeks. High temps and nutrients also caused vibrio bacterial problems.

 

My approach is different. I opt for a low density continuous culture with a very large volume of cooler water with automatic removal of fecal pellets to the plant refugium. I will also protein skim if necessary for nutrient control. I will have much lower biomass per cubic meter on my system than they used for batch cultures. I remember they produced something like 5 to 25 Kg per cubic meter in 2 weeks which would be between 5 and 25 pounds a day in my system of about 6 cubic meters. I would be happy to get half of the lowest production figure on a sustainable basis. 2.5 pounds would be like dumping 40 one ounce shot glasses of artemia in the tank every day, and would probably be millions of stage I or II nauplii. Now you see how tempting it is to put in a few hundred schooling fish because I can feed them well.

 

Most of the artemia research was done at the Univ. of Ghent in Belgium by Sorgeloos, Lavens and others in the late 80's and early 90's. My memory is hazy after 20 years and my figures are probably inaccurate, but generally I remember the overall picture. At the time I wanted to culture brine shrimp for sale to local fish stores so I studied the research closely.

 

Now that everyone has fallen asleep on their keyboard, thanks again Jager for pointing out what I forgot. I should plan on brine shrimp refugium crashes because it is not a matter of if, it is a matter of when and I will need a backup plan when that time comes.

 

Regarding RODI water, I will start off with low fish loads and see if RODI becomes necessary. My type of system has huge amounts of light so anems may dominate the tank more than brown sunlit acro corals. I was reading Joyce Wilkerson's book on clownfish the other night and saw that RO water was much less successful in keeping anems than tap water. My well water is high in iron but that doesn't appear to be a problem in salt water. So time will tell on the matter of input water.

 

Maybe I will start the initial system like they often do with natural seawater systems -- fertilize the water for an algal bloom to absorb pollutants and nutrients before filtering out the algae for clean water. Then a relatively small RODI unit may just replace evaporation.

 

Hope you're feeling better.

[dave w]

I read about your ro system thoughts/plans, but I would suggest you look at going with a full ro/di system sized to handle at least a few hundred gallon sump area if you have a crash.

 

Jager, two quick points about artemia crashes and RODI water. First, maybe 30 gallons of artemia water will be pumped up to the main tank each day, perhaps 10 gallons of nauplii concentrate and 20 gallons of fecal pellets. Even if an artemia crash went unnoticed the ammonia water fed to the main tank would be less than 1% of the system volume and if a highly lit algae refugium can't handle this then my system won't work anyway.

 

Second, I offer a "poor man's alternative" to RODI and water purification. Big public aquariums are often located on the coast and their replacement water tends to be very high in nutrients, pollution and heavy metals. So they often first hold the new water in the dark until most things die, then vacuum dead critters off the bottom. Secondly (or alternatively) they add fertilizer to bloom microalgae which absorb the pollutants and heavy metals, then use a centrifuge to remove the algae.

 

Well, I can afford a high end centrifuge as well as I can afford a 7,500 gallon capacity RODI unit, so my poor man's alternative would be to bloom algae in the new water then add a lot of brine shrimp to consume all the algae. Vacuum fecal pellets off the bottom daily and when the water is clean, net out the brine shrimp for fellow reefers. Viola! Relatively clean water done very cheaply. This method is probably not as good as RODI, but the algae refugium should be able to polish up whatever nutrients remained.

[zygote2k]

You should just get one of the low rejection R/O units and be done with it. You'll need to get a big storage container and let the r/o play catch up for a few days and then you can store a few hundred gallons to have on hand.

You could also use straight tap water with Prime.

[dave w]

You should just get one of the low rejection R/O units and be done with it. You'll need to get a big storage container and let the r/o play catch up for a few days and then you can store a few hundred gallons to have on hand.

You could also use straight tap water with Prime.

 

Thanks for the suggestion, I will look into a low rejection RO unit. The high amount of light in the sunroom will produce a lot of evaporation and a lot of makeup water should be necessary. I'm not familiar with Prime as a product. My well water has no chlorine just a high amount of iron. I should get it tested just to see what's in there.

[jason the filter freak]

Not sure how I missed this build, tagging along. Best of luck!

[dave w]

Not sure how I missed this build, tagging along. Best of luck!

 

Jason, welcome to the conversation, please pull up a chair and chime in. With "filter freak" in your name I know we will get along just fine! I'd have responded earlier but things have been busy.

 

How crazy is it to use shrimp biomass as a filter and plankton generator? I had calculated a million baby brine shrimp zooplankton per day based on my faulty memory that adult female brine shrimp produce 15 live babies per day. After brushing up on my reading the actual figure is more like 75 nauplii per female per day. So there could be 5 million zooplankton per day which should keep the filter feeders happy. Because fish are such excellent predators, it may be advisable to pump half these plankters into the main tank at night when corals normally open to feed. Anything left in the morning will get eaten by by fish anyway.

 

I've also decided to add a second (dedicated) algae refugium to process wastewater from the bottom of the brine shrimp refugium. All those fecal pellets should cause fast filamentous algae growth in the second algae refugium, which in turn should feed a large tang population in the main tank. I'd like to say I could add more pygmy angels, but fear that territoriality issues may limit me to perhaps a dozen harems. I think a dedicated algae fuge to process the shrimp waste is better than combining two systems. Shrimp waste water should be extremely high in nutrients and the sunlit algae filter will likely return water with very high temperatures and pH. I think the brine shrimp refugium will handle these conditions OK, whereas they could endanger a reef tank.

 

What do you think?

[jason the filter freak]

where is this beast and do you need any help with it. I would reccomend a generator to back up the whole system if you haven't already thought of that

[dave w]

where is this beast and do you need any help with it. I would reccomend a generator to back up the whole system if you haven't already thought of that

 

I'm a mile or two off the Fairfax County Parkway, and probably an hour from you in Columbia. I'm not yet ready for help but will appreciate it soon. I have the tank frame cut and fitted but still haven't welded the stainless steel (softball season has started up, the kids demand all our time, and the sunroom gets quite hot in the afternoons). Once welded, a friend and I will frame the reef with fiberglass rods and sheet fiberglass. Then I will ask for help sculpting a mix of cement/oyster shell and rocksalt all over the reef frame. Thanks for your offer.

 

I have a dozen marine batteries and will use these or a generator for backup. My house is on a gas line and I will use the house water heater to warm the tank, so winter snowstorms shouldn't affect me. Summer water cooling after an August hurricane could be a problem because if the power goes out, the geothermal cooling system will also be gone. The bank of batteries should keep air bubbling for quite a while, but as an advocate of the "belt and suspenders" method, I should get a generator too. It can do double duty by keeping the TV on for the kids.

[Reefoholic]

All for the infantile! (Brine or Human) I like that!

 

I also think that a generator would be a good investment. We have been having some harsh winters lately! I wouldn't leave it to chance and/or the marine batteries. Pepco couldn't care less about your brine shrimp or your kids, really!

 

I have been looking at the pictures of the built. Don't you think the natural sunlight will cause an unwanted algae bloom in the main tank? Did you consider adding a algae scrubber to the system. I have read good things about how they work better on bigger systems like yours since they are a more natural way of filtration.

 

Also, I would like to offer my humble services of help if need be, as well!

[dave w]

All for the infantile! (Brine or Human) I like that!

 

I also think that a generator would be a good investment. We have been having some harsh winters lately! I wouldn't leave it to chance and/or the marine batteries. Pepco couldn't care less about your brine shrimp or your kids, really!

 

I have been looking at the pictures of the built. Don't you think the natural sunlight will cause an unwanted algae bloom in the main tank? Did you consider adding a algae scrubber to the system. I have read good things about how they work better on bigger systems like yours since they are a more natural way of filtration.

 

Also, I would like to offer my humble services of help if need be, as well!

 

Reefoholic, I would love your help when the tank is ready for reef construction. You're right that a $300 generator is a cheap way to save $10,000 of fish and inverts, plus it keeps the TV entertaining the kids after the hurricane knocks down the power lines. I think the sunlight will only cause algae blooms if nutrient levels are too high and I'm hoping that a three pronged approach will keep my nutrient levels near zero, yet keep a gazillion plankters floating through the system.

 

First, display tank nutrients are removed as a solenoid under the settlement chamber opens hourly to drain a couple gallons of fish poop down to the brine shrimp refugium who process much of this waste into zooplankton (up to 75 baby brine shrimp {BBS} per female per day). The shrimp fecal waste in turn is pumped to refugium to be absorbed by algae.

 

Second, I'll have 125 square feet of lit refugium to grow algae for maybe 50 to 100 tangs and pygmy angels. This will act as an algae scrubber. I think it is enough algae to keep nutrients near zero, even with daily harvest of one fifteenth (8 square feet) of 15 day old algae to feed herbivores. Many algae strands will break off and settle in the main tank but I hope the strands will not survive herbivore grazing.

 

Third, I hope that very little or no new (outside) food will be added to raise nutrient levels. It is my hope that some 5 million BBS per day will feed the corals and a couple hundred planktivores and that 8 feet of algae screen will fill up the tangs and angels. With a closed food loop, nutrient levels may stay near zero even though the tank is full of live plankton like the natural reef. Slow turning large propellers will circulate water yet still keep all the plankton alive. During the day I assume that shoals of planktivore fish will get most of the baby brine shrimp, but at night I assume that corals will get most of the BBS.

 

But please keep in mind that I'm not a purist. If several pairs of large angels need frozen sponge foods I will give feed them and harvest algae or xenia to balance. It's just my hope that the brine shrimp detrivores and fuge algae will balance the fish load. My fish numbers are a pure guess, I have no idea what density will balance in my system. Density of other big systems tells me I could have 500 or 600 fish, but other folks have intensive high tech filtration instead of my low tech brine shrimp and algae filters. It may easily turn out that my system does not support high fish density like theirs, time will tell. You may one day find me replacing live plankton with protein skimmers.

 

Please keep up the constructive advice. In the middle of summer I think our interest in reefs is overtaken by outdoor stuff. For me it is flower growing, sports and kid activities.

[Jon Lazar]

In the middle of summer I think our interest in reefs is overtaken by outdoor stuff.

 

Heresy! Stop dawdling and get back to work on your reef!

[dave w]

Heresy! Stop dawdling and get back to work on your reef!

 

 

Okay, Okay. You mean I should quit talking a good game and actually get into the game? Honestly I got held up on welding the stainless. I don't like paying $300 to $500 for a professional yet I'm afraid to do it myself. I need to just weld up some scraps and see if my joints are strong. If they're not I need to pay a pro and quit diddling around.

[dmatt56]

Do you plan on breeding the tangs and angels?

 

Very impressive setup!!!!

 

Matt

[dave w]

Do you plan on breeding the tangs and angels?

 

Very impressive setup!!!!

 

Matt

 

Thanks for the compliment, Matt. No, I don't plan on breeding tangs and angels, I plan on TRYING to breed angels. I'd say there is at least an 80% chance of writing my name at the end of the long list of angelfish breeding failures.

 

But it's worth a try and it will be great fun. Ever since I had coral beauties and flames spawn in my tank in 1985 I've studied everything I could get my hands on regarding larviculture and plankton culture. I don't know much about tangs but if they spawn I'll collect the eggs and handle them like the pygmy angels, I think the egg size is similar.

 

Three smart groups in Hawaii collaborated to breed angels and they had much more scientific knowledge and funding than me. These pros needed 2,000 gallons of copepod culture to bring through one batch of centropyge babies. I have 2,000 gallons for pods but will likely need more of everything than they did. So perhaps even a probability of 20% is optimistic.

 

If you're interested in helping can I call you in six to twelve months?

[dave w]

 

The tank is now about halfway welded, this is the east corner

[dave w]

Here is the western side of the tank with a lot of stainless angle welded together.

[LanglandJoshua]

That looks great, its wild to see what Ive been reading about for a while finally taking shape!

[dave w]

That looks great, its wild to see what Ive been reading about for a while finally taking shape!

 

 

Thanks Joshua, I hope the wild part emerges as we start making the reef. With four feet of front-to-back space, I'm thinking of a sawtooth pattern of half a dozen "mountains and valleys" perpendicular to the front glass. You'd be able to look up all the valleys and see both sides of each mountain. Because the back of the tank faces south a traditional back wall of coral would block sunlight whereas leading the valleys toward the viewer opens the tank to more light and allows coral on both sides of each mountain.

 

Another reason is cover. The mountains turn each valley into a 300 gallon room visually seperating the fish. I hope the male flame angel will be so busy finding his harem each evening that he can't prevent the dominant female from turning male and fighting over all the girls. Lots of cover will be in order.

 

Any suggestions before the concrete starts to set?

[LanglandJoshua]

That sounds like a great plan to me, of course everyone needs a little apartment in this facility.

 

As for ideas, it wouldn't surprise me if you went with the near 100% coral coverage. But do you think you might want to have a bit of fun? Maybe put some shapes, or images in the mountain faces. Little things, like an animal shape. Or, toy with where you put certain colored corals for different effects. Just something to make it stand out more apart from all our cookie cutter tanks. So someone who doesn't have a clue what SPS is, or even a clown fish would be able to see. I'm no art master, but I know a look of confusion when I see it. To include the "normal" people in it, instead of just the reef junkies. (haha...normal...)

[jason the filter freak]

Can't wait to see the glass/acrylic go up. Strong work, keep it up!

[Chad]

It is certainly coming along! How is temperature in the room with these hot days we have been having?

[dave w]

That sounds like a great plan to me, of course everyone needs a little apartment in this facility.

 

As for ideas, it wouldn't surprise me if you went with the near 100% coral coverage. But do you think you might want to have a bit of fun? Maybe put some shapes, or images in the mountain faces. Little things, like an animal shape. Or, toy with where you put certain colored corals for different effects. Just something to make it stand out more apart from all our cookie cutter tanks. So someone who doesn't have a clue what SPS is, or even a clown fish would be able to see. I'm no art master, but I know a look of confusion when I see it. To include the "normal" people in it, instead of just the reef junkies. (haha...normal...)

 

I'm with you regarding 100% coverage, but many acros turn brown in the sun so this may be a tank that predominates in LPS and anemones. I'd opt for the most natural look possible.

[dave w]

Can't wait to see the glass/acrylic go up. Strong work, keep it up!

 

Because the glass is going in last it could be tricky to get those sheets in there with the reef built. I guess I could leave off the top braces and put the glass in from the top.

[dave w]

It is certainly coming along! How is temperature in the room with these hot days we have been having?

 

Without a summer shade cloth, the room gets almost unbearable in the afternoons. My welder Juan is from Guatemala and says he's used to it, plus he drinks a lot of ice water through the day. If anyone needs a great welder I'd certainly recommend him.