dave w December 16, 2010 Author Share December 16, 2010 I just found your thread. Very cool! However, I'm concerned. Unfortunately, your brother gave you some bad information. Thanks for the info, I will give them a call. I got the polycarbonate glazing in today from Griffins Greenhouse Supply in Richmond. The 4' x 16' panels look pretty easy to install, and the sunroom will be warm once I get them up. It's just that this cold snap puts me on hold until it gets above freezing again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zygote2k December 16, 2010 Share December 16, 2010 If you apply for a permit, then you might also be required to get a survey. You could always do all of the work yourself and never worry about a building permit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coral Hind December 16, 2010 Share December 16, 2010 If you apply for a permit, then you might also be required to get a survey. You will also need to have a good set of drawings to show structural details of footers and how it ties into the existing structure. You could always do all of the work yourself and never worry about a building permit. Now that would be a big gamble. I asked the permit question towards the top of this thread. Things to think about. When the county property tax assessor comes around to walk the property which they do every few years they will see a new structure or floor plan change. They go to the permit office to get the increased sqft so they can tax you on the new area only to find no permit was ever pulled. Now the county gets involved. That's how most people get caught. If you have an issue like a fire that starts in the new area the insurance company may not pay if it was built without permits. Another possible problem is when you go to sell the property. A good home inspector calls the county to see what building permits have been pulled on the property. A buyer may be scared off by no permits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave w December 16, 2010 Author Share December 16, 2010 You will also need to have a good set of drawings to show structural details of footers and how it ties into the existing structure. Now that would be a big gamble. I asked the permit question towards the top of this thread. Things to think about. When the county property tax assessor comes around to walk the property which they do every few years they will see a new structure or floor plan change. They go to the permit office to get the increased sqft so they can tax you on the new area only to find no permit was ever pulled. Now the county gets involved. That's how most people get caught. If you have an issue like a fire that starts in the new area the insurance company may not pay if it was built without permits. Another possible problem is when you go to sell the property. A good home inspector calls the county to see what building permits have been pulled on the property. A buyer may be scared off by no permits. The sunroom was on the original building plan approved by the county when the home was built, so the general building permit given at that time showed it to be in compliance with setbacks, etc. So I don't think a survey is needed. I have an engineer friend checking with the county for inspections, most inspections on footers and foundations can be done by a certified engineer, who can also verify "as built" drawings if the building comes out different than the plans. So I think I'm okay on all that. Regarding the insurance company, this structure is mostly non-flammable material, but I will check with them as well. I'm sure they won't miss an opportunity to raise my rates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davelin315 December 18, 2010 Share December 18, 2010 Hey Dave, watch out for cleaning acrylic, even with the cloth it will scratch. What you need to look for is anything that will cause a deeper scratch. The stronger the magnet, the more likely something is to scratch the acrylic. The deep scratches will then harbor more algae and also calcerous algae. You can also scratch the outside of the acrylic, too, and this won't fill in with water and clear up as much. On the inside you can always remove scratches with a scratch kit (it essentially will remove the deeper grooves by scratching them away which will allow water to "fill" the scratches so that you don't see them). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davelin315 December 18, 2010 Share December 18, 2010 Oh, and I wonder if you could get a tax deduction based on the fact that you're installing some "geothermal" cooling and heating! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave w January 6, 2011 Author Share January 6, 2011 Although aquariums are outside the code, an engineer friend is pulling the permit for the structure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zygote2k January 6, 2011 Share January 6, 2011 How goes the work, Dave? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coral Hind January 6, 2011 Share January 6, 2011 Although aquariums are outside the code, an engineer friend is pulling the permit for the structure. I think pulling the permit is a good idea. It may cause some delay now but well worth it in the long run. Keep us updated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave w January 6, 2011 Author Share January 6, 2011 Okay folks, here's an update. For most of December the cold snap was too brutal for outside work, but now in January temps are getting nice enough to work again. I've finished the block . I put two 1/2" horizontal reinforcement bars on each block course, and drilled holes into the concrete basement wall to insert the rebar, "pinning" the new wall to the existing one. Then I filled the hollow block cores with half inch rebar and concrete. So if the big bomb ever goes off, you know where I'll be hiding! Framing should start soon and go quickly (famous last words). I will be able to work steadily once I close in the sunroom. I got 400 square feet of premade 5 oz fiberglass (resin and cloth already bonded together). This material is normally used to build inexpensive ends for greenhouses, but I will use it to line the inside of the tank. When the box is built, I'll roll wet resin on the plywood, press the fiberglass sheet in place and vacuum form it. I will gusset the box corners for reinforcement and because it is easier to apply fiberglass tape on two 45 degree corners than one 90 degree corner. I will round out the gussetted corners with a fiberglass and wood dust mix using an old kitchen spoon. I will also fiberglass the backside of the box. Awful things happen to plywood when when one side is fiberglassed and the other side absorbs moisture. After sealing the back side, I will coat it with white Sweetwater epoxy paint to brighten the sump area. Glass doors on the sump and a light colored floor will hopefully let in a lot of sunlight. I'm leaning away from granite trim on the tank and toward marble. Marble sheets are 2 cm (3/4") thick and won't look as bulky as 3 cm (1 1/4") granite. Plus the marble can be drilled to install stainless steel hinges for the glass sump doors. Finally, when I'm done sharp marble corners can be easily rounded with a belt sander. Does anyone know a good welder for stainless steel? I don't trust my limited welding ability to do it right. More updates and pics soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave w January 26, 2011 Author Share January 26, 2011 I really enjoyed putting faces to the names who've helped develop ideas on this tank, especially regarding Chad, Dave Lin and Coral Hind, it was very nice to meet and talk to you guys in person. If the last of the greenhouse parts is delivered tomorrow I should have the sunroom completely closed in over the next few days and will post more pics. With a warm space to work in for an hour or two each morning, I hope to move a lot faster on the tank construction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davelin315 January 26, 2011 Share January 26, 2011 Borrowing from Field of Dreams, "if you [ask for help to] build it, [t]he[y] will come." As I mentioned, if you need help, put it out there as you did and I'm sure you'll find someone! Everyone likes a good build party and there hasn't been one in ages! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chad January 26, 2011 Share January 26, 2011 It was good to meet you too, Dave. I think you would have a good turnout for a build party, I will certainly join if I can make it work (although if it is soon, I don't know how much help I will be!) You have a cool project going that has a lot of our interest! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coral Hind January 26, 2011 Share January 26, 2011 It was nice to talk to you too, sorry I couldn't stay for the meeting. Just let us know when you need help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave w January 26, 2011 Author Share January 26, 2011 Borrowing from Field of Dreams, "if you [ask for help to] build it, [t]he[y] will come." As I mentioned, if you need help, put it out there as you did and I'm sure you'll find someone! Everyone likes a good build party and there hasn't been one in ages! Dave, thanks for the offer. A build party will be lots of fun 'cause there's room for a dozen people inside the tank. I hope to glaze the room and weld up the tank frame in the next few weeks, then I need help designing the rockscape. I've changed my design by moving the refugia from over water to a corner of the sunroom. Now a dump buckets will be at one end of the horseshoe, but the tank surface is uncluttered. I'll post another sketchup to illustrate. Instead of mixing bowls I'm now leaning toward "coral trees" like the three in ChingChai's 1,000 gallon tank in Thailand, which is the prettiest tank I've seen. To me, his tank actually looked better before the white sand bottom was cluttered with clams, etc., but none of can resist the temptation to put in more stuff. At 3 to 4' distance between trees, I could build a dozen, maybe tieing them together near the water surface. I think the trick is to make them look similar enough to be one reef, but different enough to be natural. Everyone, please help me with ideas on this. I see room for sandy bottoms, caves, bottoms covered in shellfish reef, etc. And Chad's pistons will make all the sea fans and gorgonians sway back and forth with wave action. I just can't wait! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave w February 1, 2011 Author Share February 1, 2011 Folks, I have been thinking of how to heat and cool a big tank with minimal utility bills. Being as the sunroom is set 6' into the ground I have an insulating blanket of earth to cool it in summer and warm it in winter because the heat loss out to the ground is rather slow. A bulb of temperature builds up around the underground walls after a year or so and temperature loss minimizes. As someone suggested, slow water flow from the main tank through the sumps will tend to equalize water temperatures, and I will put the densest shade blanket over the glass in the summer that still lets in adequate light. Considering our worst month (August) when we suffer 100F days and 90F nights, bleaching will be a problem. Usually night temperatres will drop below the tank temperatures so a high capacity air blower will help cool the water so it has further to rise during the hot day. I will also bury several hundred feet of 4" pipe outside the walls (6' underground) before backfilling. This pipe will tend to be 55F degrees, and I can draw my air pumps and blower air through these cool tubes. Maybe then I can get that geothermal tax credit after all that DaveLin was joking about. Additionally, I will put a coil of plastic (polyethylene) pipe in one of the 400 gallon sumps and drip cold well water into it in July and August. Warm tank water pumped into one end should come out cool on the other end. An overflow in the sump will drain warm water at the top of the thermocline out to water my garden while and the new cold water will sit at the bottom of the sump and cool the pipe. Finally I will use house power to run a chiller (and a generator in case an August hurricane). The same generator should run a heater in case of winter storms like the one we just had. Sorry for the boring details, I'm just saying this in case anyone ever needs these ideas to cool a large tank. Does anyone have more ideas for free heating and cooling? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zygote2k February 1, 2011 Share February 1, 2011 How about a simple geothermal loop a couple o' hundred feet outside underground that is plumbed into the sump? Just pump tank water thru it and it should cool sufficiently, maybe? If you could get the entrance of the pipe and the rest on grade so it flows smoothly downhill, you could use a small pump and let gravity do the most work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chad February 1, 2011 Share February 1, 2011 Different topic, but here is the image that I promised long ago (I just remembered that I had it at the same time I was at the computer with an internet connection ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave w February 1, 2011 Author Share February 1, 2011 How about a simple geothermal loop a couple o' hundred feet outside underground that is plumbed into the sump? Just pump tank water thru it and it should cool sufficiently, maybe? If you could get the entrance of the pipe and the rest on grade so it flows smoothly downhill, you could use a small pump and let gravity do the most work. That is an excellent idea. I can loop it also around the foundation. As long as the back yard is torn up I could also loop it in a trench. As you know I prefer to move water without impeller pumps and lifting cool water from the sump up 5' of head to the tank involves a pump. I also keep with the design theory of having no penetrations below the water line. An outlet to the sump 5' below could drain the tank down to the fitting level if a mishap occurred. But your idea can still be incorporated. If I use an airlift on either or both ends to move water through the pipe I don't need a pump. By bringing water back into the tank at the same level it went out, it doesn't matter where the pipe runs in between to get cool -- either through a sump or through the ground. And by coming back at the display tank water level I reduce the chance of catastrophic failure. If a fitting leaks the tank level will drop an inch and drain no further. Thanks for the great idea. Come August I will need all the cooling power I can get. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave w February 1, 2011 Author Share February 1, 2011 (edited) Different topic, but here is the image that I promised long ago (I just remembered that I had it at the same time I was at the computer with an internet connection ) Chad, thanks for this great illustration. Now that I've decided to roll two fiberglass sheets into a piston and cylinder, I can make any piston size you recommend. So what size do you recommend? Justin splashed water out of his 750 gallon tanks with a 2" hand piston. Let's guess at a size and this will be the first thing we put in the water to test next month. I agree with you that bypassed water will cause no issues if the cylinder is halfway submerged. With two motors 20' apart how do you suggest that I time them? If they don't come out of the factory at nearly identical timing, there may be a high quality variable speed timers that will work. Tough questions for a non engineer like me. How about this idea? Instead of a cylinder in each corner, put one big one in the exact center of the tank? We thought that turning 90 degree corners could be problematic, but keep in mind that each corner is actually two 45 degree angles on a 48" piece of glass and the corners are about 6' deep, front to back. If I put a triangular filler in the back corner for streamlining (I know this is hard to visualize) water may turn the corners into the 10' legs of the tank more smoothly than one would think. I also would not need to match the 10' leg frequency to the 20' long part of the tank and could open the two side legs back to 11.5 feet. I need to research the typical wave frequency on a reef, probably ten seconds or so, and try to replicate it. I suspect that the 20' and 10' tank dimensions will bounce waves back at more frequent intervals than natural waves. Putting one cylinder at mid tank may result in longer wave frequency. But I don't think the gently swaying sea fans will complain if they move back and forth a little differently than the reef. And wave ripples in the sand is something you don't see in tanks every day. Edited February 2, 2011 by Coral Hind fixed quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chad February 3, 2011 Share February 3, 2011 No problem Dave, I was board on a cross country flight Let me do some thinking and some ROM calculations on stuff to see if I can come up with a reasonable guess on size, I just need the chance to sit down and do some number crunching. The past couple of days have been super busy at work (its a little after 4am and I am still here from yesterday at 8am if that tells you anything about how my day went... I am waiting for a phone call to happen before I go home, so if my post ends suddenly, that is why...), so I haven't had much of a chance to think about this or much else. Timingwise, I think the best solution might end up being to have the two pistons chain driven by one pump... which then makes things both bulky and more complicated... almost never good things in design. I think your idea of having one piston in the center is probably a good one. It will mean a larger cylinder, but I think the overall simplification is a good idea. Will write more later, need to work more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chad February 3, 2011 Share February 3, 2011 Wow, I just read that, I guess I wasn't terribly coherent after 20 hours at work!! Dave, theoretically the input could be applied anywhere in the system to achieve oscillation at the system's natural frequency. The more I think about it the more that I think it would work to have a single cylinder. The key is going to be having enough variability in the design to vary the frequency and the magnitude of the piston. Frequency is easily accomplished by having a variable speed motor driving the piston. Magnitude will be a little more difficult to change since it will be changed by "hard set" physical features of the device such as stroke length and cylinder diameter. Regarding wave length, you will be limited to discreet values that will be .5 x the length of your tank (although the higher the number the less stable and more finicky it will be), most of the time wavemakers in our tanks are set produce half of a full wavelength (high on one side, low on the other), this should be achieveable in your setup. What does the upper edge of your tank look like? How will this device be attached? Perhaps we could look at designs that are moveable (e.g., clampable to the edge of your tank or multiple mounting holes or something similar) to find the best position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave w February 3, 2011 Author Share February 3, 2011 Wow, I just read that, I guess I wasn't terribly coherent after 20 hours at work!! Dave, theoretically the input could be applied anywhere in the system to achieve oscillation at the system's natural frequency. The more I think about it the more that I think it would work to have a single cylinder. The key is going to be having enough variability in the design to vary the frequency and the magnitude of the piston. Frequency is easily accomplished by having a variable speed motor driving the piston. Magnitude will be a little more difficult to change since it will be changed by "hard set" physical features of the device such as stroke length and cylinder diameter. Regarding wave length, you will be limited to discreet values that will be .5 x the length of your tank (although the higher the number the less stable and more finicky it will be), most of the time wavemakers in our tanks are set produce half of a full wavelength (high on one side, low on the other), this should be achieveable in your setup. What does the upper edge of your tank look like? How will this device be attached? Perhaps we could look at designs that are moveable (e.g., clampable to the edge of your tank or multiple mounting holes or something similar) to find the best position. Chad, thanks for your several new and very smart ideas. A moveable cylinder is a solution to proper placement that I hadn't thought of. I don't mind if we guess at the cylinder size and length, it will not be hard to make one from fiberglass sheet. Just guess at a size and I will make it. Good news on the tank top. Because the frame will be 2" stainless angle, the top will have a coping like a swimming pool to knock splashes back into the tank and to strengthen the top edge. I envision this coping about 6" wide, subject to change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave w February 5, 2011 Author Share February 5, 2011 Another update. Today a couple friends helped me put the roof on. Four hundred square feet of double wall polycarbonate made a very tiring day. I will post pics as soon as I figure out how (again). A buddy who is a sculptor suggested that if I want "coral trees" like ChingChai in Thailand, that the best form material is a large plywood box filled with snow, then we sculpt the snow into the kind of mushroom that looks like a realistic reef outcrop. I think this is a great idea but wish he had thought of it after the snowstorm two weeks ago. With my luck it will be our last of the year. But if we have another snowfall we will pour concrete into a female snow mold. I'm thinking of a concrete core surrounded by the typical sand/cement/crushed oyster shell/rock salt mix. Please chime in if you've done this before on pieces about 3' by 3' by 4' in size. Hopefully the three sunroom walls will be glazed early next week, weather and parts permitting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zygote2k February 5, 2011 Share February 5, 2011 use pvc as the skeleton of the cement rock. It'll make it lighter, plus you can run water thru it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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