Dave W's 3000 gal plankton/reef tank

[dave w]

You can easily use a plastic roller tray- that's how we made them back in the day. You just need to make a counterweight and a cushion that the tray rests on to keep it quiet.

 

The roller tray is a good model, but I hope these dump buckets can be a lot bigger. The 20' long part of the tank is 48" front to back, so it will handle a large bucket. Even the smaller 10' sides are 36" front to back and should hold a good sized bucket.

[LanglandJoshua]

WOW, at this size I would just pick a place I liked on the coast and leave some probes for a few weeks. I would want to replicate the parameters of that reef. Even setting your pump timers to replicate that area's tide. Im sure you can get the charts of tide from almost anywere.

[dschflier]

Wow this looks exciting. I have been away to long. I will have to read up on the entire thread to get a better feel for the work. I will enjoy following this. Looks great so far. I saw you were looking at raising water to a surge tank. Could you use something like an large auger shrouded by PVC. I dont believe it would have to be completely tight against the PVC to raise the water.

 

They use large augers for moving grains in silos and beer making. I bought two small ones to see about mixing dry products but I think it might work for fluids.

[GaryL]

The roller tray is a good model, but I hope these dump buckets can be a lot bigger. The 20' long part of the tank is 48" front to back, so it will handle a large bucket. Even the smaller 10' sides are 36" front to back and should hold a good sized bucket.

 

you could go to the national zoo in the invertebrates exhibit and take a look at their dump bucket setup on the cold pacific tank. may give you some idears...

[dave w]

WOW, at this size I would just pick a place I liked on the coast and leave some probes for a few weeks. I would want to replicate the parameters of that reef. Even setting your pump timers to replicate that area's tide. Im sure you can get the charts of tide from almost anywere.

 

 

You're right Joshua. Instead of a variable timing, I'd just set the tides at 6 hours. But there is also an argument to keeping a clockwise flow at all times to get the most water movement. This is what every aquaculture operation does and it never seems to bother the fish. So maybe tides are overrated.

 

Changing direction on 24,000 pounds of water moving at say, an inch a second or so is alot of inertia to reverse. It will stir the tank, which may be more important than overall flow through a filter feeder. I guess it is a case of what is more important, higher flow or more turbulence, and I don't have an answer to that.

[dave w]

Wow this looks exciting. I have been away to long. I will have to read up on the entire thread to get a better feel for the work. I will enjoy following this. Looks great so far. I saw you were looking at raising water to a surge tank. Could you use something like an large auger shrouded by PVC. I dont believe it would have to be completely tight against the PVC to raise the water.

 

They use large augers for moving grains in silos and beer making. I bought two small ones to see about mixing dry products but I think it might work for fluids.

 

I would love to use an auger, like an Archimedes screw. A pic was posted to this thread from Inland Aquatics. But nobody seems to make one commercially. If I can find a pair (augur and tube) factory made for minimal tolerances, I will give it a try. I tend to think that anything I do custom will have too much clearance between augur and tube to hold water.

[dave w]

you could go to the national zoo in the invertebrates exhibit and take a look at their dump bucket setup on the cold pacific tank. may give you some idears...

 

Good idea, Gary. Dump buckets have been around a while, but there are probably some good tips out there in making a quiet one that doesn't bang when resetting. I've seen a few but have never built one myself.

[dave w]

 

After laying 150 block yesterday, this is an update of how the place looks now. You can see most of the first sump made from the 4" block on the far left. Each sump will be about 300 gallons. I didn't want to break up the sump but decided I needed the extra wall support against the weight of the backfill. There are about two more courses of block to put up, and a lot of finish work on the block. Lucky I got this far before the rain last night made it a muddy mess again.

[Coral Hind]

I would love to use an auger, like an Archimedes screw. A pic was posted to this thread from Inland Aquatics. But nobody seems to make one commercially. If I can find a pair (augur and tube) factory made for minimal tolerances, I will give it a try. I tend to think that anything I do custom will have too much clearance between augur and tube to hold water.

 

To use the Archimedes principle you do not have to have a tube around an auger. The screw can be made with an angled side that forms a bucket. It can also be in the shape of a coiled pipe. The last one to me would be easy for you to make. I don't think any screw is going to give you much volume but it would be enough for your planned refugiums.

 

[dave w]

To use the Archimedes principle you do not have to have a tube around an auger. The screw can be made with an angled side that forms a bucket. It can also be in the shape of a coiled pipe. The last one to me would be easy for you to make. I don't think any screw is going to give you much volume but it would be enough for your planned refugiums.

 

 

 

This is a great idea, I really like the simplicity of the coiled pipe.

[LanglandJoshua]

You're right Joshua. Instead of a variable timing, I'd just set the tides at 6 hours. But there is also an argument to keeping a clockwise flow at all times to get the most water movement. This is what every aquaculture operation does and it never seems to bother the fish. So maybe tides are overrated.

 

Changing direction on 24,000 pounds of water moving at say, an inch a second or so is alot of inertia to reverse. It will stir the tank, which may be more important than overall flow through a filter feeder. I guess it is a case of what is more important, higher flow or more turbulence, and I don't have an answer to that.

 

That makes a lot of sense, but while were brainstorming here why not just have the current switch rotation every 6-12 hours? I have heard a lot about how the turbulence is good for SPS and corals. This way you can keep the calm rotation most of the time for the fish and yet get the turbulence and movement occasionally for healthy SPS and others.

[dave w]

That makes a lot of sense, but while were brainstorming here why not just have the current switch rotation every 6-12 hours? I have heard a lot about how the turbulence is good for SPS and corals. This way you can keep the calm rotation most of the time for the fish and yet get the turbulence and movement occasionally for healthy SPS and others.

 

The more I think about it, changing tides every 6 hours may have little impact on the tank. Random and frequent storming with strong currents has more impact. So I think I'm talking myself out of gradually reversing 24,000 pounds of water every 6 hours. Instead I think investing those watts into stronger storming is more effective.

 

Regarding the high flow/low flow areas, has anybody had experience with this? With 35 feet through the middle of the tank, each of four refugia dump into a high flow "mixing bowl" of 3 to 4 feet in diameter, that would leave low flow areas in between of about 4 to 5 feet that get handled by one inch per second of clockwise current and random storming. Or I could have each refugia fill two surge buckets and get 8 smaller mixing bowls.

Edited November 17, 2010 by dave w

[zygote2k]

Dave-

you might try looking at RC.com to talk to those guys that have "L" or "T" shaped tanks and their experience with them.

[dave w]

Dave-

you might try looking at RC.com to talk to those guys that have "L" or "T" shaped tanks and their experience with them.

 

Rob, thanks for this tip, I'll give them a try.

 

While using an archimedes screw for slow water flow through the refugium is a good proposal by Coral Hind, I apologize for not clearly communicating my refugium plans. Most people grow chaeto or caulerpa and cycle refugiums slowly with relatively low light and these systems work.

 

I am trying a different experiment -- making the refugia generate more plankton by making them bigger, better lit for filamentous algae, with shallow sand depth and high flow.

 

Phytoplankton culture is hit and miss. In comparison, refugia are fail safe. Algae strands are covered with small benthic grazers (worms, mollusks, copepods, amphipods) that release millions of planktonic larvae into the water. By harvesting 7% of the refugium daily, it cleans my water twice. First by absorbing phosphates and nitrates, second by drastically reducing the fish feeding that causes high nutrient levels. I hope at some point my tank balances the animal and plant biomass ratio at a given level of nutirents. Only when the tank becomes imbalanced that I need to export algae or add more fish food. This is only a theory, and may prove to be unworkable in practice.

 

The whole plankton idea of fast cycling of nutrients through living tissue rather than decay may not be workable. My college biology professor studied tropical rain forests and found that the nutrient level of the water in rainforest streams was almost sterile, because the vast sunlight energy and high temperatures that power the system cause dead or decaying material to be reabsorbed into living tissue almost immediately. I think coral reef waters are very similar. I hope that high light levels, fast growing algae and millions of plankton are key to the immediate nutrient absorption and pristine water. It will undoubtedly be harder than I think. And my apoligies if this sounds high minded. I don't have any definitive answers, just a lot of ideas.

 

 

[L8 2 RISE]

Thought of this thread when I saw this: http://reefbuilders.com/2010/11/18/water-flow-biggest-factors-promoting-coastal-ocean-diversity/

Edited November 19, 2010 by L8 2 RISE

[dave w]

Thought of this thread when I saw this: http://reefbuilders....cean-diversity/

 

Thanks for that link, it was very interesting to read the relationship between fast flow and diversity. If I use 4 or 8 surge devices which dump into little "mixing bowls", I will have both high turnover areas and lower flow areas. Does anyone see a problem with this or think it solves anything? I remember the Smithsonian had a caribbean reef with a giant dump device, and they placed different organisms on the fore side and back side of the surge.

[zygote2k]

Dave-

 

Maybe I already asked you this, but have you read "Dynamic Aquaria"? I believe most of what you're trying to accomplish can be found in that great book.

[dave w]

Dave-

 

Maybe I already asked you this, but have you read "Dynamic Aquaria"? I believe most of what you're trying to accomplish can be found in that great book.

 

I agree it is a great book with a great level of scientific detail and I have read it for many years. I'm trying to apply the concept a little differently. The Algal Turf Scrubbers got a reputation for yellow water and high terpenoids affecting SPS corals, so the ATS system was eventually abandoned from the big aquariums and institutional applications. I'd like to understand where that concept can be improved upon for my tank.

 

The new ATS proponents claim that harvesting algae each 14 days prevents the copepod grazing that releases organic dyes which yellow water, and I hope they are right. The Dynamic Aquaria author (Adey) used water pumps that cost more than an average aquarist can afford, whereas I am going with cheap motors for in tank turnover and air pumps to lift water to refugiums. Also I would like sand in the refugium, different from the ATS, and I plan on recycling the refugium algae to reduce or prevent fish feeding.

 

Dynamic Aquaria addressed these concepts differently. Adey didn't rely on pygmy angelfish to be his filamentous algae grazers, and he used a "top predator" which I will not. Recycling the refugium seemed a side concept to him whereas it is a major one for me. My main thrust of dosing with phytoplankton and seeing what a plankton based system can do is a little different than his, he dosed with Artemia nauplii. When he did his research the cultivation of stony corals wasn't as widespread, and when the Berlin system of skimmers, the Jaubert sand beds and live rock for nitrate reduction came along to grow corals, the ATS seemed to fall out of favor.

 

I think refugiums and deep sand beds create hybrids between these systems, and all of us are better off for the merging of ideas. But the current systems hve no plankton biomass and I hope can be improved upon by the addition of plankton and larger refugiums. I also have the side goal of raising larvae of demersal spawners, and high plankton levels fit my personal goals.

 

None of this is meant to take away from Adey's book, or the low nutrient levels accomplished by the skimmers of the Berlin method. I have a different goal of using a plankton based system to reduce nutrients and raise pygmy angelfish. And even if I fail in my experiments, I will still have a heck of a display tank. I can watch a dozen harems spawn even if I can't raise the young.

[bluce]

Very interesting thread Dave - would love to see the whole project when it's completed.

Keep posting the pics so we can follow your progress.

 

One thing I didn't see addressed yet - how are you going to clean all that surface area?

Are you planning on letting coralline algae grow on any of the panels or are you going to try to keep all the viewing areas completely clean? - just asking cause I always am looking for easier ways / and solutions for less frequent cleanings on my 76 gallon tank.

 

Cheers,

Brian

[dave w]

Very interesting thread Dave - would love to see the whole project when it's completed.

Keep posting the pics so we can follow your progress.

 

One thing I didn't see addressed yet - how are you going to clean all that surface area?

Are you planning on letting coralline algae grow on any of the panels or are you going to try to keep all the viewing areas completely clean? - just asking cause I always am looking for easier ways / and solutions for less frequent cleanings on my 76 gallon tank.

 

Cheers,

Brian

 

Brian, this is a very good question, because I have about 26 feet of front viewing window not including two endcaps of 3 feet each. This amount times 3' height is about 75 to 93 square feet to clean. I am thinking that I will use a hard rubber squeegee attached to a short broom handle every day or two knock algae off the acrylic. I have seen these squeegees up to 24" in diameter but don't know which size will work best for me. It needs to be small enough to get good leverage with my arm, but large enough to clean as much acrylic as possible.

 

I will aslso buy the biggest acrylic cleaning pads possible. If a regular cleaning magnet is too slow, I assume I can wrap a special large magnet in cloth or velvet to move the cleaning pads. My previous large tanks had glass fronts and I have not cleaned acrylic before, but I hear it's not too much different. If I find cleaning to be too cumbersome, I may let some of the panels grow algae, but this is not my intent.

 

I have thought of exotic systems too, like a high pressure water wand. Maybe even a pressure washer. If I have to add 25 or 30 gallons of freshwater a day to make up for evaporation, I could run my makeup water through the pressure nozzle. Maybe I'm getting a little too crazy. Does anyone have better ideas?

[dave w]

Large systems cost proportionally more to maintain than small ones. Sure, you'll save money on lighting but you still have water movement devices, even if they are efficient you still need to move 60,000+ gph. Water changes will be necessary, going bigger does not reduce the need for them. You will need a lot of carbon to filter all the algal metabolites, prob. 5 gal bucket/month.

 

Justin, I've given a lot of thought to your point that carbon will be needed to prevent yellow water. Dr. Adey, the guy who intented the algae scrubber, claimed that his water never yellowed, but everyone else with algae scrubbers complained of the terpenoids and organic dyes yellowing the water.

 

My limited research since your post indicates that dyes are broken down by UV light and are absorbed by ciliates and other microorganisms that rely on dissolved organics for food. Dr. Adey had a lot of plankton in his systems because he pumped water with diaphragm pumps. People with impeller pumps had algae to cause yellowing, but not the millions of ciliates to eat the dyes.

 

So I am suggesting (guessing?, hoping?) that it was the combination of algae scrubbers and plankton killing pumps that caused yellow water. Those who ran algae filters with impeller pumps got yellow water, and those with plankton friendly pumps had clear water. Could some experts please tell me if this is a crazy idea, or if they have experienced the same thing? It will be easy enough to check in my tank after a few months if the plankters absorb organic dyes. But I won't know until then unless some experienced people or smart biologists chime in. If I am wrong, then I'll be asking advice on building a large carbon filter!

[Chad]

Dave, how is construction going?

[dave w]

Dave, how is construction going?

 

Thanks for asking, Chad. The cinderblock is 90% finished. In construction speak, that means that it's about halfway there because the last 10% seems to require half of the effort. I've been slowed down by an elbow injury and the cold weather. I had hoped to glaze the sunroom and be basking in the warmth, but the past two weeks have been really cold.

 

And despite an entire childhood of tennis, this block laying has caused my first elbow pain. Every time I spend a few hours on the mortar trowel, my elbow is hard to move for a week. Bummer.

 

I hope to order the polycarbonate glazing (for the roof and walls) and two 50' rolls of 5 oz fiberglass (for the tank) this week, I have most of the framing material. I also am getting closer to buying the 200 of so feet of 316 stainless steel angle for the frame. I am using 2x2x1/8" angle on all the outside edges, with a 3/4" plywood box inside the angle frame. A friend will show me how to vacuum form the epoxy and fiberglass that waterproofs the plywood box.

[Chad]

The cold weather we have been having was most of the reason I asked... I hoped you were working inside with it already!

 

Sorry to hear about your elbow, at least it seems that you are making progress with the project... It seems with theses big ones, any progress in the forward direction is good progress.

[Black Mammoth]

Actually I asked my brother about that one and he said aquariums are outside of the building and inspection codes.

 

I just found your thread. Very cool! However, I'm concerned. Unfortunately, your brother gave you some bad information. Maybe I'm misunderstanding your project, but I don't think so. It sounded as it was a sunroom addition. If it is an addition to your home, you need a building permit (and a few others such as electrical). If it isn't an addition, then it will be considered as a shed which also requires a permit. Finally, if that doesn't get you, it would be classified as a pool. I'm confident in saying you definitely need a permit. It is in your best interest to get a permit ASAP. It will help as it will be easier to get your inspections done before you close things up. Also, if it is a structure without a permit you can face fines and they can make you take it down. I would hate to see such a cool project fail because of the lack of upfront work needed. Also, that's a lot of money you could lose by not getting it permitted. Not unless your brother is the zoning administrator for Fairfax County, you need a permit. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think it is worth the time to contact the Zoning Department to make sure. The link below is to Fairfax County's website for building permits. It has some good information.

 

Fairfax County Building Permits

 

Sorry to rain on the parade...Best of Luck!