Sam's 75 Gallon Cuttlefish Tank

[L8 2 RISE]

ok, I went through the scenario's, and correct me if I'm wrong here, but:

 

If the red pump shuts off, I'm in a world of hurt, the refugium will do some mega overflowing.--fix: Add another pump so that the water is sucked from the first pump into the second pump and then up into the tank. Would this damage one of the pumps at all? Is this feasable?

 

If the yellow pump shuts off, nothing bad should happen, the green pump will just be hauling more water.

 

If the green pump shuts off, the 40 breeder loses a little water and is cut out of the loop untill I fix or replace the pump.

 

If the yellow and green pumps shut off, the sump will overflow.---fix: same as if the red pump shuts off.

 

If the yellow and red shut off, the 75 is out of the loop untill they are repaired or replaced. The refugium also starts to overflow, if the red pump fix is in place, it shouldn't be a problem

 

If the green and red shut off, the 40 breeder is out of the loop. The refugium starts to overflow, not a problem if the red pump fix is in place.

 

If they all shut off, the 75 and 40 lose a little water, the refugium and sump gain some water (not a problem, they will be at least 3-4 inches underfilled). Everything is out of the loop.

basically what this means is more plumbing and more pumps.

 

 

Or how about this setup? If the pumps fail nothing will happen fast because there will always be at least one other running, as an added protection, I can put an overflow in the very top of the sump that will flow to a bucket or something that will buy me at least 5 or so hours I pbelieve if only one pump is running. If they all shut off nothing bad should happen, and to connect the refugium and sump, I can just use an extra wide pipe or something... Tank_Design_Take_3.bmp

 

 

What daya all think

[gmubeach]

keep working on it Sam I saw an octopus at aquaruim depot way too cool and fascinating anyway keep it up

[Jon Lazar]

Sam,

 

When any of the following happen...

 

- Car hits a power line in your neighborhood

- Power company does work affecting your house

- Winds or ice bring power lines down

- Your power strip circuit breaker trips

- Your house circuit breaker trips

- Your dad turns off breaker power to do other electrical work and forgets your room is on that circuit

- Or many other scenarios only limited by your imagination

 

...you will lose all of your pumps at the same time, regardless of how many backup pumps you have.

 

Stick with a self contained closed loop system on the display tank, and a separate return pump from the sump to the display tank.

 

Jon

[dbartco]

my advice:

 

never "open" your closed loop. You'll pay, and your sump will overflow.

 

Use gravity to return everything to your return pump. Keep it simple or your gonna get into trouble

[L8 2 RISE]

I don't want to make this sound like I'm going to just completely blow all of your advice off, trust me, I really appreciate it. But in order to do a "conventional" closed loop system, I will need to drill two extra holes in the 75 and one extra hole in the 40. On top of that, I will need four pumps instead of three. If this second set up that I described and drew works, I think everything should be fine even if any or all of the pumps turn off. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

On another note, I visited the zoo today and met Dave (OUSnakebite) he had to go to a meeting though and I wasn't able to catch up with him later. I did see the cuttlefish though and they were pretty cool. My friend was with me and she for some reason thought they were disgusting ...some people just don't make sense .

[tbittner]

Hi Sam,

 

Actually, I probably would have suggested not accepting the tank too, if I would have seen the chip.

 

Anyway, your last plumbing layout looks pretty good BUT I would only use one pump and put T's, with ball valves in the pipe to control the flow to each of the holes. I highly recommend using gate valves instead of ball valves because they really allow you to fine tune the flow. You would run one main pipe with a T in the pipe to feed a hole. So you would have a bunch of T's in the main pipe. Put a valve on each of the pipes going to the hole to control flow. Cap the end of the main pipe so you get even pressure on all of the pipes coming out of the T's. Don't just put an elbow on the end to feed the last hole. Otherwise, that pipe would get preferrential pressure.

[davelin315]

Hey Sam, I think you have overcomplicated this! I don't see the need for 2 separate pumps and I see a big problem with having your returns underwater. This will result in a siphon that will drain your display all the way down to the bottom bulkhead (not even a siphon, simple gravity) should a pump fail. I agree with Doug, the closed loop is just that, a closed loop so that water is always in there and the pump is only moving it through. The way you have it (I think, I was a bit confused by the diagram) the loops are open, meaning that water will flow down to your sump freely if the power shuts off.

 

If you opt for a closed loop and drill the 4 holes you show, I would use the top 1 or 2 as feeds and then the others as returns for the pump (this all depends on your pump as well). If you want, we can sit down some time and plan this out and go over possible failure points. One thing that I would avoid is interconnecting too many different systems. In mine, I have one return pump and you saw how I actually have 5 different areas of water including my main display. All of these are interconnected with water going from the display to the main sump and from there to a secondary sump (all gravity). The secondary sump is connected to the return pump which tees off a single line for the frag tray and refugium areas, both of which drain back into the 2nd sump. I do have additional pumps, but two are closed loop pumps and one feeds my skimmer, which I hope to remove soon and convert to a gravity feed from my overflow.

[jason the filter freak]

Glad to see you're doing all the planning upfront hope the tank works out for you.

[SDBDRZ]

Sam,

 

My advice, the most stable environment is the simplist environment, multiple pump scenarios are a recipe for disaster. You are getting a lot of sound advice in the thread from people with years of experience, reread Dbartco's advice and heed his warning

[ReeferMan]

Have you ever thought about the cost or purchasing and running 3-4 pumps and the heat it would create? Your going to need a chiller with all those pumps. I would buy one big pump to run the system.

[Origami]

Sam, are you using backflow prevention in all your return lines to prevent a reverse drain-down when a pump fails (or stops pumping)? That could be a BIG failure mode. For example, if the red pump fails, not only do you get flooded from the breeder and the sump, your display drains down to the lowest return height. All told, you'd be asking for your 50 gallon refuge, which looks to have about 15-20 gallons of residual capacity to accept upwards of 90 gallons of water (just from eyeballing your diagram). That puts about 70 gallons on your floor.

 

Even if you are planning on using backflow prevention devices, you'd be asking for trouble as these fail, too, and you don't find out until you need them (that is, after the damage is done from the 70 gallons on the floor).

 

"Opening" your closed loop like this... bad idea in my opinion. There are too many failure scenarios that end in a lot of water damage and loss of your investment.

 

A closed loop should be just that - closed.

 

Your breeder, sump, and refugium can probably be run on a single pump circuit with a return up high to minimize a backflow drain-down from the display.

 

I'd recommend taking Dave up on his offer to sit down and work a plan out for you. He's got the knowledge and experience, both as a hobbyist and as an educator, which will help you arrive at a solid solution and pick up some great knowledge along the way.

[reefmontalvo]

Sam, are you using backflow prevention in all your return lines to prevent a reverse drain-down when a pump fails (or stops pumping)? That could be a BIG failure mode. For example, if the red pump fails, not only do you get flooded from the breeder and the sump, your display drains down to the lowest return height. All told, you'd be asking for your 50 gallon refuge, which looks to have about 15-20 gallons of residual capacity to accept upwards of 90 gallons of water (just from eyeballing your diagram). That puts about 70 gallons on your floor.

 

Even if you are planning on using backflow prevention devices, you'd be asking for trouble as these fail, too, and you don't find out until you need them (that is, after the damage is done from the 70 gallons on the floor).

 

"Opening" your closed loop like this... bad idea in my opinion. There are too many failure scenarios that end in a lot of water damage and loss of your investment.

 

A closed loop should be just that - closed.

 

Your breeder, sump, and refugium can probably be run on a single pump circuit with a return up high to minimize a backflow drain-down from the display.

 

I'd recommend taking Dave up on his offer to sit down and work a plan out for you. He's got the knowledge and experience, both as a hobbyist and as an educator, which will help you arrive at a solid solution and pick up some great knowledge along the way.

 

I agree, but to break this down to a short response. How will you sync your pumps since not all pumps are created equal. I'm a strong believer in "K.I.S.S" theory. Keep. It. Simple. Stupid. You have a great Idea with your red pump, just make it larger and have your main tank gravity feed the other three tanks. That way the gravity takes the load form the pump and all it has to do is supply water to the main tank.

[Jon Lazar]

I don't want to make this sound like I'm going to just completely blow all of your advice off, trust me, I really appreciate it. But in order to do a "conventional" closed loop system, I will need to drill two extra holes in the 75 and one extra hole in the 40. On top of that, I will need four pumps instead of three. If this second set up that I described and drew works, I think everything should be fine even if any or all of the pumps turn off. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

Ok. Sam, you're wrong

 

1. You don't need to drill any more holes in your tanks. Your picture shows 4 holes in the 75g tank, and three in the 40g tank. You don't have to have any holes to do a closed loop, but two is good and three or four is plenty.

 

2. The warnings above are not just a bunch of over-cautious, pessimistic people foretelling doom. If your picture represents what you plan to do, both tanks will drain down to the lowest hole, overflow the sump, and pour onto your bedroom floor. Nobody plumbs their tank like this because it doesn't work right.

 

 

You need a self-contained closed loop on the display tank. Two holes for intake and two for discharge will work fine, with a dedicated pump.

You can use a closed loop in the 40g tank if you want, or a powerhead. I would use a powerhead since you said it is for frags or maybe other fish, and the powerhead is simpler and cheaper. A closed loop would also work well, with two intakes, one discharge, and a dedicated pump.

 

Jon

[dbartco]

And you can always take your closed loop return over the top of the tank if you feel there is not enough returns drilled. Heck, Dave and I could get together one evening after work (I work in Reston) and we could go over a plan with you if you'd like.

[GaryL]

I don't want to make this sound like I'm going to just completely blow all of your advice off, trust me, I really appreciate it. But in order to do a "conventional" closed loop system, I will need to drill two extra holes in the 75 and one extra hole in the 40. On top of that, I will need four pumps instead of three. If this second set up that I described and drew works, I think everything should be fine even if any or all of the pumps turn off. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

On another note, I visited the zoo today and met Dave (OUSnakebite) he had to go to a meeting though and I wasn't able to catch up with him later. I did see the cuttlefish though and they were pretty cool. My friend was with me and she for some reason thought they were disgusting ...some people just don't make sense .

 

closed loops have only one feed and and a return (you can plumb it to exit water into two areas)

the 1st feed goes to the pump by gravity and then returns it to the tank... thats where the closed part comes from

 

see if this pic helps

 

 

and ousnakebyte's name is mike not dave.

[tbittner]

Gary, there seems to be a rash of "wrong names" going around.

 

Doug and Dave, I'd be happy to add my two sense into the discussion too. I too work in Reston. I'd LOVE to see Daves tank too!

[L8 2 RISE]

thank you all, I have been off for the last two days because of how usy I've been, I just read over everything, and hope to see and talk to you all at the social. Thanks again.

 

oh yeah, and I knew his name was mike, I just have slippery hands.

[tbittner]

Hey Sam! It was GREAT to meet you today! Please let me know if there is anything I can do to help you. I'm sorry we didn't get to talk much today though.

[Ziggy953]

Well it looks like everyone has provided the answers to the drawings. The first one I looked at I was seeing a nasty flood. I agree with you guys about keeping things simple. I ran a closed loop on my 72 and it was all done over the edge even the intake. I had a SCWD plumpbed right above the pump and a return on either end. It worked great until my SCWD messed up and stopped working.

 

Sam,

 

Like everyone has said keep it as simple as you can. Things tend to work better that way. If you are going to have multiple sumps (I do) the return pump(s) should be in the last or end sump. GaryL , hit the nail on the head. This is a simple and perfect example of a closed loop. The water comes out of the tank into the pump and then right back into the tank. Your overflow from your tank should supply your filtration with water and your return pump sends it back to start the cycle again.

 

I don't live near herndon but I would be happy to help you out any way I can. If you are ever out in the Warrenton/Fredericksburg area let me know and you can come by and see my setup.

[L8 2 RISE]

Thank's again to EVERYONE for the help, I would really appreciate a "planning party" , so you guys tell me when and where and I'll follow. I can make most times work now that schools out. Hope to be talking to you guys soon!

[davelin315]

Wednesdays are probably best for me if that works for everyone else. Mondays are swim meet nights for the kids, Tuesdays are gym afternoons, Thursdays are skating, and well, Friday is Friday!

[tbittner]

Wednesdays works for me too!

[Ziggy953]

I work Sunday through Wednesday (nights, other then this week) so I won't be able to join you all. If there is anything I can offer please let me know.

[Ziggy953]

I work Sunday through Wednesday (nights, other then this week) so I won't be able to join you all. If there is anything I can offer please let me know.

[tbittner]

Sam, it was great meeting you again and seeing your tank! For everyones information, the chip is at the bottom of the front pane but it's below the brace that is siliconed around the bottom. I really think it won't be a problem. It's a very nice looking tank!

 

Hopefully I didn't thoroughly confuse you, Sam. I'm pretty sure you have it all figured out now. Good luck! Let us know when you start working on the stand. Also let us know when you're ready to start plumbing. I'd be happy to stop over and help with that. You and your family are also more than welcome to come out and see our two tanks too.