COMING SOON TO WAMAS

[L8 2 RISE]

I have been planning out my wannabe cuttlefish tank and have decided a cube is the way to go, probably something like 25X25X25 to 30X30X20 so 55-75 gallons with a 20-40 (whatever fits in the stand) sump/refugium with macro algae LR rubble and LS. I want to have either a central overflow, or just a normal overflow in the back.

 

If I go with the central overflow (does anyone know if thats even possible?) I want to have the LR in a sort of pyramid formation around the overflow.

If I go with the normal rear overflow, I plan on having the LR built up into "mountains" on the rear left and right sides with shallower LR in between to form a valley-type-thing, and then have it fade steeply towards the front so that I have at least 6 inches of pure sand if not more.

 

I would like to have really nice lighting on the tank and from looking at tbittner's solaris, that looks like something I would like, but from doing a quick search, it looks like it'll cost about 1,000 for a 24 inch one. That is WAY more than I want to spend, I was looking to spend about $500-$1000 for the whole tank, but I really like the idea of the fade in fade out.

 

As for a skimmer, I really have no idea, most people with cephs have found that they have to go WAY overboard on the skimming so I'm looking for a skimmer thats rated for a 200-300 gallon tank.

 

I'm looking for the same with the filter, rated for about 200 gallons, I really have no preferences other than that here.

 

SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO............

 

on to the ever present questions:

 

1) Does anyone here have a tank that meets these specs that they could sell to me, or does anyone build glass aquariums?

 

2) Is it possible to have a central overflow?

 

3) What type of skimmer do you all suggest?

 

4) What type of lighting would you all suggest?

 

5) What type of skimmer would you all suggest?

 

 

I would REALLY like any and all feadback here, both positive and negative.

 

Thanks,

Sam

[Larry Grenier]

Sam,

 

Extremely cool creatures! I hope you've had a chance to see them at the invert exibit at the national zoo. Not an expert here but...

 

I'd go with the bigger tank and an oversized skimmer. I believe these guys eat good-sized meals which means good-sized poopies. If these guys are deep-water then lighting should be minimal but a good spectrum to bring-out their changing colors.

 

I've thought about these guys too but was a little discouraged when I learned of their short life-span.

 

Keep us posted.

Edited May 27, 2008 by Larry Grenier

[JMsAquarium]

Sam,

 

With regards to the overflows, you can have a central overflow if you ever find a tank with the glass bottom drilled that way. Honestly they are not common at all and will be difficult to find. You may have to go with an acrylic tank. Jeff, (NAGA) builds acrylic tanks and would be the best person to talk to. He will give you a very honest opinion on the pros and cons of such a set up, as well as how much it would cost to buils one.

JM

[L8 2 RISE]

I've done a lot of research on these guys, in fact they were the reason I decided to start my 12 gallon tank, just to learn the basics of salt water, so now I'm planning on selling the 12 gallon and moving to this larger tank, so I think I can safely say, although I know you can never know enough about anything, and I'm not trying to be arogant by any means, that I know quite a bit about cephs. I have seen the exibits at the zoo and I find the nautilus amazing .

 

most cuttles live on reefs or reef like places, so they can make it reasonably well with high lighting. there is speculation as to whether or not it brings on the effect of senecence(sp? the process cephs go through when they die which includes going blind) but most cph keepers agree its just an "old wives tale" So I think I'll go with the high lighting so I can keep corals and clams as well.

However, I have no idea what lighting to get and NEED help and suggestions and help again.

 

A 55 gallon should be good enough for the cuttles I want (sepia bandensis) as they can be kept in a tank as small as 25 gallons with enough water changes. plus i plan on having almost 100 gallons in the system and a skimmer rated for 200 gallons.

Still NEED suggestions on this one as well.

 

I've thought about acryllic, but the tank i have is acryllic and I have a very bad habit of scratching it up every time I put my hands near or in the tank. I will rethink the acrylic and talk to Jeff, but I'm not too sure........

 

Still looking for suggestions.....

[reefmontalvo]

Well I have a 55 gallon undrilled tank and stand I could sell you for a song and a dance. I just recently started a 75 gallon tank so in the next couple of weeks I will be ridding my self of this old tank.

[ReeferMan]

Correct me if I am wrong but arent these guys for "Experts"? Dont mean to sound harsh in anyway but i think you are rushing into things. You have had issues with your 12g tank and you are still very fresh to the hobby from what i understand. I dont think it is a good choice and i think you will find that out very quickly if you go ahead with this. Just my opinion though.

[GaryL]

mike henley can correct me if i'm wrong but the cuttles at the zoo are cept in 90g-ish tanks with undergravel filters...as young-ins they get spooked really easy and i dont think the ink is what you want near corals or clams. they can withstand high lighting but also adds to the fact they can see you as well as you can see them...some get used to it but most never really do.

 

there have aslo been problem of them smacking upside the tank and hurting themselves as they get older.

 

just my .02

 

g

[L8 2 RISE]

First, I will start off by saying that almost all of the information I have gathered is from a cephalopod dedicated forum with many members that know a lot about cephs and 2 of the only private ceph breeders I or anyone on that site knows of. The NRCC also breeds cephs, but only for scientific research and one of the people that work there is a member. If you want to visit the site it is www.tonmo.com. I am not pulling this information from random, mindless papers that explain the need of cephs, I am getting the information from people who are adapting to my scenerio and are explaining the waay through the process from THEIR experience.

 

Well I have a 55 gallon undrilled tank and stand I could sell you for a song and a dance. I just recently started a 75 gallon tank so in the next couple of weeks I will be ridding my self of this old tank.

 

I thought about a 55 gallon for a while, but I have been told that they are hard to deal with due to the lack of width and that you dont have room for a sand bed, I chose to go with a cube because it gives you more room for sand which tends to be what cuttles need. I sent you a PM though .

 

Correct me if I am wrong but arent these guys for "Experts"? Dont mean to sound harsh in anyway but i think you are rushing into things. You have had issues with your 12g tank and you are still very fresh to the hobby from what i understand. I dont think it is a good choice and i think you will find that out very quickly if you go ahead with this. Just my opinion though.

 

No "harshness" taken I expected this sort of stuff and I am well aware that it doesn't seem right to be launching myself into this. However, a ceph tank takes 3 months to cycle, I don't even have the tank yet so I don't plan on having any cuttles for another 4 months. I know that that's still not very long, but I have been doing research on these guys for a VERY long time. I know research does not and will never be as useful as experience as I have found with my tank .

 

From the "speaks" that I've had with people on "tonmo", quite a few went cold turkey and did just fine. I am also aware, however that every tank is different when it comes to salt water, and if I end up getting live rock that just doesn't like my tank then I could end up with water chemistry issues for a very long time. If this does happen and I am not able to easily keep the water chemmistry under control, then I may just get normal fish, etc. and skip the cuttles for a while. I do not want it to seem like I am rushing anything, as I am aware it may seem, but I think that is due to the fact that I only just signed up to this forum and I am presenting all of my "new" ideas at once, even though I have been thinking about them for a while and I have presented them on tonmo so they really actually aren't brand "new" ideas.

 

mike henley can correct me if i'm wrong but the cuttles at the zoo are cept in 90g-ish tanks with undergravel filters...as young-ins they get spooked really easy and i dont think the ink is what you want near corals or clams. they can withstand high lighting but also adds to the fact they can see you as well as you can see them...some get used to it but most never really do.

 

there have aslo been problem of them smacking upside the tank and hurting themselves as they get older.

 

just my .02

 

g

 

The cuttles at the zoo (at least the last time I was there) are s. officinalis which grow to 12-18 inches. I'm getting bandensis which grow to 4 inches.

 

The ink is another reason I want a big tank, from what I've read, when they ink, it's usually not a whole lot, and it will dilute very quickly if you have a large water supply and lots of water flow which I intend to have. It's also another reason I want an oversized protein skimmer, to help get rid of the ink. From the experiences of people on "tonmo", the only time cephs tend to ink is when they first enter the tank, they tend to be shy for about 2 weeks and then for the most part, they tend to come out and be quite sociable. I also plan on getting CB cuttles so that should also make them more likely to warm to humans.

[Leishman]

Read this

 

From another page on their site:

 

1. Home aquarists and scientists agree- cephalopods can be really hard to keep alive in a tank. They require a very clean, stable seawater system, escape proof lids, and they are picky eaters. Keeping one can be expensive, and feeding one can be expensive.

7. They don

Edited May 30, 2008 by Leishman

[davelin315]

I agree with Rik.

 

Something I mentioned before and I'll mention again here, I have been reefing for over 15 years now and have had several octopuses, I will reiterate how difficult it is to keep these guys. I read the article that Rik referenced as well and it says that you should get experience with a reef first. There is a LOT more margin for error in a reef tank than with a ceph... you can't frag a ceph that's not doing well and I doubt anyone can tell you what ails a ceph without stressing it out too much.

 

Don't forget that each ceph is also very different and has a unique personality as well. They might get tame, they might not. I had an octopus for a couple of months that NEVER came out, not once, and NEVER ate anything when I was there. I fed it live crabs the entire time and it NEVER became friendly to me or tame.

 

Not trying to be negative, but these are very intelligent creatures that should only be cared for by experts. You may become one eventually, and everyone needs to start somewhere, but I waited 2 years before getting my first octopus (and even then it was not a wise choice - a blue ring).

 

If you do plow ahead with it, the most important thing on your system will be carbon filtration. Skimmers are great for removing stuff, but it's not necessarily going to remove the toxicity of the ink, but carbon will. Again, though, you're going about it the right way, I just think it'll take longer for you to learn the ropes and become an expert than you think. I learn new things every single day and don't consider myself anywhere near an expert.

[L8 2 RISE]

Read this

 

From another page on their site:

 

I have read that article before, and if I remember righ it's a year or two old. I plan on getting cptive bred and raised three month old cuttles that have already been weened onto frozen food, so that shouldn't be a problem, as for the life spn, I was aware of that, and what can you do about it . I'll just have to live wiht it.

 

I agree with Rik.

 

Something I mentioned before and I'll mention again here, I have been reefing for over 15 years now and have had several octopuses, I will reiterate how difficult it is to keep these guys. I read the article that Rik referenced as well and it says that you should get experience with a reef first. There is a LOT more margin for error in a reef tank than with a ceph... you can't frag a ceph that's not doing well and I doubt anyone can tell you what ails a ceph without stressing it out too much.

 

Don't forget that each ceph is also very different and has a unique personality as well. They might get tame, they might not. I had an octopus for a couple of months that NEVER came out, not once, and NEVER ate anything when I was there. I fed it live crabs the entire time and it NEVER became friendly to me or tame.

 

Not trying to be negative, but these are very intelligent creatures that should only be cared for by experts. You may become one eventually, and everyone needs to start somewhere, but I waited 2 years before getting my first octopus (and even then it was not a wise choice - a blue ring).

 

If you do plow ahead with it, the most important thing on your system will be carbon filtration. Skimmers are great for removing stuff, but it's not necessarily going to remove the toxicity of the ink, but carbon will. Again, though, you're going about it the right way, I just think it'll take longer for you to learn the ropes and become an expert than you think. I learn new things every single day and don't consider myself anywhere near an expert.

 

I didn't know that that was what carbon was for, I was planning on having a filter with carbon in it, but didn't realize that it was worth that much.

 

I do not by any means consider myself an expert on any aspect of tank keeping or cephs, I think I know a lot about cephs, but that doesn't make me an expert. As for the animals being rated as "expert", I believe that that is the correct rating, however, as I know from past experience, if you are focused enough on your goal, enough so that you plan on spending as much time as you need, plus more, and focus on that goal utterly and completely, you can reach it. It doesn't matter what "label" it is given, you will be able to do it and do it well. I'm not trying to be ignorant or arogant, but these are the guidelines I try to "live life" by. You can do anything with enough focus and determination.

 

Well there's my little "pep" speach.

 

Please do not try to disuade me from keeping cuttles. If you haven't noticed, it's not going to work for you . I really appreciate any advice you give me as I really need it. I doubt there is any piece of "evidence" you could show me to try and disuade me from keeping cuttles that I have not seen and considered.

 

Thanks again,

Edited May 30, 2008 by L8 2 RISE

[treesprite]

I think the basic message is, to make absolutely sure you know enough and have enough experience to keep them healthy. That goes for everyone with everything we could possibly put in our tanks.

 

I honestly myself would say to practice with something in the same type setup that isn't such a demanding life form for a year to get experience with tank and water maintanence. As experience increases, gradually move up to more sensitive species. When you are able to keep sensitive animals that require constant attention and are sensitive to the extent that they need daily attention. THEN try ONE cuttlefish - if you can't keep it alive for at least 6 months, give up them up as an option for livestock.

 

I have to refer to age, I'm sorry. I find it very admirable that you are doing so much information-gathering and are so enthusiastic about a "healthy" (for you) hobby, and that you have strong self-confidence and are as willing to accept constructive criticism as you have been. However, in your age range people's interests change a lot, or even if they don't change, there are sometimes so many interests that there isn't enough time in life to dedicate so much time, money, and effort to one hobby. I'm going to guess that there are very few people here below the age of 25, and it's hard even for us adults to stay focused on our tanks to the extent that you would have to do to take care of something like cuttlefish. I strongly encourage you to pursue the hobby but in an easily manageable way at a pace and responsibility level that won't take over your other present or future young person's interests.

[gmubeach]

Wow at 14 I was busy playing football and enjoying life:P by senior year I was playing semi pro aussiefootball and smacking down the compitioin.... I was also an eagle scout and a maskot.... I did get my reef tank though and I still have the same one I've always had on steriods... but I love the hobby can I tell you an honest to god true story.... when I was 16 I wanted to keep captive dart frogs I kept them succesfully for about 2 years I turned all my tanks into frog tanks I had azules, leucomles, tincs, and of course my favs the little dwarves forgot thier names anyway I got a bad batch of crickets from the store and it had a virus wiped out all my frogs... ALL OF THEM in a few days... It reminds me of a S H phrases hahahh but yea I was out alot of money... my saltwater tank has crashed 2 as well but atleast I could rebuild how can you rebuild from a virus on bad crickets! Anyway have fun with your cepholpod research and if your really ready you may want to save up its going to be an expesnive ride:) oh and one last thing...I had to pay my own way through college its REALLY REALLY expesnive cause you can't work, but maybe 10 hours a week and get good grades unless your super talented... anyway hope it helps Troy

[L8 2 RISE]

I think the basic message is, to make absolutely sure you know enough and have enough experience to keep them healthy. That goes for everyone with everything we could possibly put in our tanks.

 

I honestly myself would say to practice with something in the same type setup that isn't such a demanding life form for a year to get experience with tank and water maintanence. As experience increases, gradually move up to more sensitive species. When you are able to keep sensitive animals that require constant attention and are sensitive to the extent that they need daily attention. THEN try ONE cuttlefish - if you can't keep it alive for at least 6 months, give up them up as an option for livestock.

 

I have to refer to age, I'm sorry. I find it very admirable that you are doing so much information-gathering and are so enthusiastic about a "healthy" (for you) hobby, and that you have strong self-confidence and are as willing to accept constructive criticism as you have been. However, in your age range people's interests change a lot, or even if they don't change, there are sometimes so many interests that there isn't enough time in life to dedicate so much time, money, and effort to one hobby. I'm going to guess that there are very few people here below the age of 25, and it's hard even for us adults to stay focused on our tanks to the extent that you would have to do to take care of something like cuttlefish. I strongly encourage you to pursue the hobby but in an easily manageable way at a pace and responsibility level that won't take over your other present or future young person's interests.

 

I think I'm going to go with your idea of using other livestock, and then getting cuttles, I've been pricing everything out, and I think once I have my liverock, sand and skimmer, it's going to take a while to earn money to get some other stuff in the tank, so I was planning on just a few simple yet colorful and cheap fish for the first couple months after cycleing, if I can still manage the water chemistry without too much difficulty, then I think it's a green light for cephs, if not, I'll stay with the fish.

 

oh yeah, I plan on keeping everyone up to date about what I plan on getting, I'm having some trouble getting my tank, but once I do, I'll start planning what equipment to put on it, and request guidence and experience from all of you with the equipment, because I for one can not afford to pay 300 buks for a skimmer that I later find out doesn't work, so have to go back and pay another 300 bucks for the one I do want.

Edited May 31, 2008 by L8 2 RISE

[OUsnakebyte]

so I was planning on just a few simple yet colorful and cheap fish for the first couple months after cycleing, if I can still manage the water chemistry without too much difficulty, then I think it's a green light for cephs, if not, I'll stay with the fish.

 

How do a few successful months with cheap, colorful fish equate to a green light for a cephalopod...?

 

Are you going to sell or give away your fish, or have them become a ceph snack?

 

Good luck, dude...

[L8 2 RISE]

It doesn't lead to a "green light" with a cephalopod, per say, it leads to a green light witth a cephalopod in that tank. The main thing to worry abotu wtih cephs is that they producew a tremendous amount of waste, so the water chemistry has to be good. If I literally have to do almost no maintainence to the tank with just a few simple fish, and still keep the water chemistry textbook perfect, then presumably, wtih a ceph, with just a little more maintenence (more frequent water changes, etc) I shouldn't have to worry about any issues with water chemistry.

 

I will probably sell the fish when I get the ceephs, but may keep them in the tank depending on the size, aggresiveness, price etc. If the fish is small and expensive i dont want it to be cuttle food, if it small, cheap and very wary, I may think about it, because although I dont want it to be ceph food, It should be able to manage for a while, and if not, it'll give the cuttles some fun :wink:. I especilally dont want any harm to come to the cuttles, so I dont want an aggresive fish, however I believe, I'll have to ask the ceph experts (tomo ) that a small puffer such as a small (under 2.5 inches) saddleback or valentini (my favorite fish) should do fine in the tank as the cuttles wont eat them and they cant do harm to the cuttles. again, that's an I believe .

[treesprite]

one way to help with water quality is to get as big a tank as possible

[L8 2 RISE]

one way to help with water quality is to get as big a tank as possible

 

Thats where I was going as far as why I want 100 gallons of water in my system. I just ordered a 75 gallon and I hope to use at least the 20 gallon sump I got from yauger, if not get an even bigger sump, up to 30-40 gallons worth.

[davelin315]

Puffers and cephalapods do not mix well. One will eat the other at some point in time. Also, when a puffer dies it can foul your tank. Not a good mix ever.

 

Oh, and Sam, don't take all of this the wrong way, but there are many here who have tons of experience. Relying on a website is one thing as you'll get a mixed bag of responses, even here, but Mike knows what he's doing and has the knowledge of the zoo behind him. You've also got one of the more knowledgable aquarium clubs in the nation here at your disposal. The main point of this all is that cuttlefish and cephalopods are difficult at best and given their nature and lifespan, the likelihood of successful keeping is very slim. As techniques improve and you gain more experience with the practical side versus the theoretical and literary side of keeping them, your chances of success increase exponentially, which is what is being said here. Again, I think you're going about it in the right way, slowly, but I would caution you to take it a lot slower than you are planning. A tank often does not reach maturity until it has been running for over a year and your plans call for having one in place in less than six months.

[L8 2 RISE]

Puffers and cephalapods do not mix well. One will eat the other at some point in time. Also, when a puffer dies it can foul your tank. Not a good mix ever.

 

I know porcupine puffers and the larger puffers wont go well at all with cephs, but not even the smaller variety? I don't want to cause any harm to the cephs or puffer for that matter, but I figured a baby small variety of puffer would be fine with a ceph. Is it that the cuttles will eat the puffer or that the puffer will nip at the cuttles?

 

I also didn't realize that puffers fowl the water when they died, I was aware of other animals that did this, but not of the puffer so if this is true, I definetly wont go with a puffer because the last thing I need to mess up is the water chemistry

[davelin315]

Both, they will nip at the cuttles and the cuttles will try and eat them. They secrete a mild toxin on their skin and this can be released when they die in larger concentrations, potentially fouling the water.

[reefmontalvo]

Cuttlefish, sorry I'm so late to this very serious debate. I just did some fast research on the net, and it sparked an old memory I had of once seeing a National Geographic special on the cuttlefish. I think it is best to just go ahead and listen to the voices of experience. The people that are helping you all manage large tanks and are good at what they manage. The idea seems great since it is something new and different to maintain but in the long run its best to stick with something simple then grow from there. You know learn to crawl before you walk.

[CHUBAKAH]

I think it is best to just go ahead and listen to the voices of experience. The people that are helping you all manage large tanks and are good at what they manage.

 

If I'm playing devils advocate here, large tanks are much easier to manage apposed to smaller tanks.

 

Sam,

I like your thinking outside the box, and your attitude towards doing what hasn't been done, or at least doing what is perceived as hard to do. Obviously people are doing it, and the more that do, the easier it will become.

 

When I was very involved in the Cichlid world, I proved many times that fish said not to do well in captivity, could be kept. If you have the means and the passion to follow through with what it takes, I say go for it.

 

Just stay true to the hobby!

[gmubeach]

Wow thats amazing keep the research coming!

[Jon Lazar]

Sam,

 

Since a custom tank will eat up a lot of your budget, I would consider using a 75g tank but arranging the rock non-traditionally. If you placed all your LR on the left side you could have a huge sand bed on the right side of the tank, and the sand bed would probably be larger this way than in your cube idea. The whole appearance would be a "cutaway" or side view of a reef. You could do the same thing with a 55, but you get a lot more footprint and gallons out of the 75g tank.

 

 

 

I have been planning out my wannabe cuttlefish tank and have decided a cube is the way to go, probably something like 25X25X25 to 30X30X20 so 55-75 gallons with a 20-40 (whatever fits in the stand) sump/refugium with macro algae LR rubble and LS. I want to have either a central overflow, or just a normal overflow in the back.

 

If I go with the central overflow (does anyone know if thats even possible?) I want to have the LR in a sort of pyramid formation around the overflow.

If I go with the normal rear overflow, I plan on having the LR built up into "mountains" on the rear left and right sides with shallower LR in between to form a valley-type-thing, and then have it fade steeply towards the front so that I have at least 6 inches of pure sand if not more.

 

<snip>

 

1) Does anyone here have a tank that meets these specs that they could sell to me, or does anyone build glass aquariums?

 

2) Is it possible to have a central overflow?

 

3) What type of skimmer do you all suggest?

 

4) What type of lighting would you all suggest?

 

5) What type of skimmer would you all suggest?

I would REALLY like any and all feadback here, both positive and negative.

 

Thanks,

Sam