L8 2 RISE June 1, 2008 Author Share June 1, 2008 Cuttlefish, sorry I'm so late to this very serious debate. I just did some fast research on the net, and it sparked an old memory I had of once seeing a National Geographic special on the cuttlefish. I think it is best to just go ahead and listen to the voices of experience. The people that are helping you all manage large tanks and are good at what they manage. The idea seems great since it is something new and different to maintain but in the long run its best to stick with something simple then grow from there. You know learn to crawl before you walk. I have been doing just what you are saying here, maybe at a faster rate then most, but I think I'm making up for that with excess research and making sure to get excess guidance. I definetly want to listen to the voices of experience, that is in fact what I need, however what I dont need is the attempts to disuade me from doing this, because it's not going to work, the only thing that will stop me from going through with this are problems with the water chemistry before I even have the cuttlefish. I plan on starting with something simple, as stated above, I started with my 12 gallon, I still have that and I'm still working on that, once Iget the 75 up and running, which....o by the way is not going to go up as fast as I wanted due to a shift in my focus at the moment to another field, more to come later... i intend to have just simple fish to start with and eventually move to the cuttles after 1-2 months. I am doing what you suggest, just at a faster rate, which I believe is a necessary for me right now as I'm not going to be able to continue keeping aquariums in about three years time when I graduate and go off to college, and I probably wont be able to start up again after that untill I'm 25-30. I'm not rushing for just that reason, the main reason I am going at such a fast pace is that the ONLY reason I started in this hobby was for the cephs, if it had been any other animal, I probably would not have chosen to start at all, or if I did, it wouldn't have been untill I was out of school, out of college, etc. If I'm playing devils advocate here, large tanks are much easier to manage apposed to smaller tanks. Sam, I like your thinking outside the box, and your attitude towards doing what hasn't been done, or at least doing what is perceived as hard to do. Obviously people are doing it, and the more that do, the easier it will become. When I was very involved in the Cichlid world, I proved many times that fish said not to do well in captivity, could be kept. If you have the means and the passion to follow through with what it takes, I say go for it. Just stay true to the hobby! THANK YOU!!!!!! Wow thats amazing keep the research coming! AND THANK YOU TOO!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gmubeach June 1, 2008 Share June 1, 2008 wow fun stuff:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L8 2 RISE June 1, 2008 Author Share June 1, 2008 Sam, Since a custom tank will eat up a lot of your budget, I would consider using a 75g tank but arranging the rock non-traditionally. If you placed all your LR on the left side you could have a huge sand bed on the right side of the tank, and the sand bed would probably be larger this way than in your cube idea. The whole appearance would be a "cutaway" or side view of a reef. You could do the same thing with a 55, but you get a lot more footprint and gallons out of the 75g tank. I just ordered my tank, its a 75 gallon rimless 48X18X21 tall. I planed on doing something similar to what you say in that I will build up the live rock on the left and right corners, that will leave hopefully about 12-18 inches of sand space in between the two piles and about 6 inches in the front, but we'll see . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dandy7200 June 1, 2008 Share June 1, 2008 and still keep the water chemistry textbook perfect define textbook perfect water chemistry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L8 2 RISE June 1, 2008 Author Share June 1, 2008 everything stays where it's supposed to be without too much effort from me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reefmontalvo June 1, 2008 Share June 1, 2008 I have been doing just what you are saying here, maybe at a faster rate then most, but I think I'm making up for that with excess research and making sure to get excess guidance. I definetly want to listen to the voices of experience, that is in fact what I need, however what I dont need is the attempts to disuade me from doing this, because it's not going to work, the only thing that will stop me from going through with this are problems with the water chemistry before I even have the cuttlefish. I plan on starting with something simple, as stated above, I started with my 12 gallon, I still have that and I'm still working on that, once Iget the 75 up and running, which....o by the way is not going to go up as fast as I wanted due to a shift in my focus at the moment to another field, more to come later... i intend to have just simple fish to start with and eventually move to the cuttles after 1-2 months. I am doing what you suggest, just at a faster rate, which I believe is a necessary for me right now as I'm not going to be able to continue keeping aquariums in about three years time when I graduate and go off to college, and I probably wont be able to start up again after that untill I'm 25-30. I'm not rushing for just that reason, the main reason I am going at such a fast pace is that the ONLY reason I started in this hobby was for the cephs, if it had been any other animal, I probably would not have chosen to start at all, or if I did, it wouldn't have been untill I was out of school, out of college, etc. THANK YOU!!!!!! AND THANK YOU TOO!!!!! Just to make you loud and clear. "You Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davelin315 June 1, 2008 Share June 1, 2008 Getting back to the original intent of the thread, if you do plow ahead, I would avoid the deep sand bed, go at most with 1/2"-1" or so. They can hunt for food in the sand bed and this will cause problems for you. You may even want to consider bare bottom as this will prevent waste from settling in the sand bed, but this will most likely make the cuttle fish uncomfortable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davelin315 June 1, 2008 Share June 1, 2008 Also, guys, keep in mind here that Sam is young, excited, and has a goal in mind. Let's all keep it civil here and not take offense at anything that is said. Sam, we're here for you to bounce ideas off of and it's your perogative whether to listen or do your own thing, but please keep in mind that one of our club goals is to conserve, whether it's captive bred or wild caught. No one can ever be prepared for every eventuality, just look at how many expert reefers have suffered from crashes or mishaps. Also, starting small is good, but you have to understand that a small tank does not equate to the same experience as a big tank, likewise there are differences between medium tanks and large tanks. I have a 300 that can handle a lot more slip ups (for instance, when I get ready for a water change I have an emergency overflow on the garbage can I use that drains directly into one of my sumps, if I don't pay attention to it, once it's full it can dump up to 20 gallons in half a day of pure RO/DI water into my system, but since this is on close to 650-700 gallons, it doesn't really affect anything). This is very different, though, from my old 125, which was very different from my old 55, which was incredibly different from my 29. I have kept anything from 2.5 gallons up to my current set up now, and every single one was different and helped me to understand how to keep my current system, but none of them made me an expert and eliminated the learning curve on a larger system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OUsnakebyte June 1, 2008 Share June 1, 2008 (edited) Re the cuttle and the puffer - I think you will be amazed at the size of prey that a cuttle, even a small one, (or octopus for that matter) can wrangle. I have seen juvenile officinalis take on prey that is at least half of their body length - not to mention the already stated toxicity of puffers. I would advise only sessile invertebrates as tankmates for your cuttlefish, if any. And, I agree 100% with what Dave said about tank maturity - six months at a minimum and best to wait a year. ...however what I dont need is the attempts to disuade me from doing this, because it's not going to work... I don't believe anyone here has told you not to do this or that you can't - I certainly have not. All we have been saying is to take it s... l... o... w..., which from the posts I have read of yours, you seem to be ignoring the advice - 1 to 2 months and then straight to the cuttle, for example. Yes, I know - you are going to monitor the water chemistry, yadda, yadda, yadda... Rapid shifts can happen in any tank, small or large. The potential for these shifts to happen is greater in newly established tanks than in more mature ones. "Hardier" species will generally weather these shifts better than more sensitive ones. That's all we have been saying - gather experience and take it slow. Do what you will with the advice. Remember, it is a life you are dealing with here - captive bred or not. I truly and honestly hope, for the sake of the cuttlefish, that you are totally successful the whole way in your endeavor. I'm done. Cheers Mike Edited June 1, 2008 by OUsnakebyte Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gmubeach June 1, 2008 Share June 1, 2008 Well I agree with tank maturity I crashed my first tank.... and its really dispointing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharkb8 June 1, 2008 Share June 1, 2008 (edited) I am late to the thread here, but if I remember correctly, the ceph exhibit at the zoo had no live rock, just bare sandbed. Soooo, with no research and no experience, what the heck - here's my advice I figured the purpose of the lack of presence of live rock in that exhibit was to allow as much water flow/motion and removal of detritus as possible? Have you considered this as a direction? I would have thought rocks would simply trap debris (old food and waste) and cause chemistry problems. So I would have thought maybe the best set up is no live rock (or maybe some in the fuge?) and bare sand bed with as much mechanical filtration as possible, i.e. fluval, HOBs, etc etc., and a top of the line skimmer. (SIDE NOTE: You don't want to be skimping on equipment in this hobby because it just ends in disaster. I'd get the best skimmer possible. I thought I saw an earlier post here about getting an inexpensive skimmer. If you can't afford a decent, i.e 200-300 USD, skimmer, then that would pretty much end the project in my mind.) The fluvals would also add to water motion and you could stock it with the carbon as well as filter pads. I would think these would need to be changed/rinsed maybe ... ? once per week? Maybe you would also need lots of power heads on each corner of tank so that any waste is actually lifted into the water column for removal by said mechanical filtration. I also like the idea of a very slim sand bed, allowing you to get in there with a hose if need be to vacuum up solid waste, maybe on a daily basis. I would think my theoretical setup, described above, would be high maintenance. Daily vacuuming and weekly changing of carbon/filters. Do the ceph keepers reading this thread think this setup would work? Oh, also I was thinking this would need a chiller, but maybe I'm wrong there too ... I would think temp control is extremely important here, as snails seem to be rather sensitive to temp changes. EDIT: another thought, snails are also very sensitive to salinity changes. I would therefore guess you've already considered and purchased (or will purchase soon) a very reliable peristaltic pump and have a place nearby to set up a large volume of RO/DI to be injected into the system to account for evaporative loss of water (I have a 90g and have to replace about 6 gal/week)? So I offer the above design for debate by the rest. What do you all think? Pluses? Minuses? Good/bad/ugly? It seems that by coming here to post on WAMAS as well as checking your cuttlefish-specific board, you are definitely checking all options and consulting with as many people as possible, which is a really good start in my mind. Ok, I did like 5 minutes of research on this - cuttlefish are more closely related to snails and slugs than fish, so I will also add that keeping some more traditional livestock alive for a couple months in your tank really is like comparing apples to oranges. I'm not sure experience with one really translates into experience with the other. And I think everyone has to start somewhere - so why not jump into it? As long as you have sufficient funds (this ain't going to be cheap), I say go for it. Thats my two cents. Edited June 1, 2008 by Sharkb8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L8 2 RISE June 2, 2008 Author Share June 2, 2008 I did think about not putting any live rock in, but, although that would help with the mess, cuttles are more intelligent then most animals, and I personally wouldn't want to be stuck in a tank like that, so I think the live rock is a must, unfortunaltely. I also like the idea of high water flow, and I figure if I aquascape correctly to allow many openings in the rock, if enough powerheads wer pointed in that direction, I shouldn't have a problem with the waste build up???? I was looking for a cheap skimmer, but cheap in the matter of used or ebay cheap, definetly not cheap on quality or size. I wasn't sure on the filter, so I think I will go with the fluval if you suggest it. temperature control is actually not one of the most important factors to the bandensis thankfully, (it is however very important to most other cephs) there is at least one person who I have spoken to that has temp changes of 7 degrees throughout the day. I do not intend for this to happen as the tank will be in a room with stable temperature, so just the normal heater should be fine. I haven't really cosidered the peristaltic pump, however I will have an RO/DI system with one of those float-things in the tank, so I hope that will control it, plus I have a refractometer on the way, so I think I can maintain acurate salinity without too much fanciness, tell me if you think I'm wrong though. As for the fish's relation to cephs, I'm not worried about that, all I want to do is make sure the system can handle at least a little bit of a bioload without too many issues. If there are no issues, then there hopefully wont be too many issues with cephs, I'm not really doing it to figure out how to take care of the animals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharkb8 June 2, 2008 Share June 2, 2008 Got it. A porous rock structure with good water flow through the structure sounds good to me, but again, I have zero experience with these creatures. Make sure to have a backup heater - redundancy is key as we learned in the last meeting. A chiller might be good just to have on the side "just in case" etc. Power outages are pretty common around here... Float switch thingy sounds good too, but not sure you want that hooked up directly to the RO/DI system. Others here can chime in on the plumbing aspects and what would be the best set up. Again, if you go this route, I suggest a triple redundant system on the float switches. We learned at the last meeting that float switches are only like $12 each. If one stops function, you will lose your entire system, which is much more than $12 (!) But again, I leave the plumbing issues to others here much more experienced at this than I (feel free to chime in everyone). I have experience with Fluval is all. There may certainly be better options out there, like possibly more powerful wet/dry systems. Again, there are many folks here with experience on these. Maybe even a bubble bar would help with water movement? These are all good "nuts and bolts" issues to work out in advance. Again, the lecture at the last meeting was very cool and very info-packed about how to design a fail-safe system. A great inspiration for many of us, and one I'm sure many of us are still working on trying to emulate. If these cuttles are not cheap, the more redundancy you can build in to the system the better. Of course, as I type this I am thinking about how I myself am not following all of these rules and need to start purchasing back-up equipment and parts, etc. .... :wink: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gmubeach June 2, 2008 Share June 2, 2008 What do you feed a cuddle fish anyway? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharkb8 June 2, 2008 Share June 2, 2008 I think most of the basics are covered here, right? http://www.thecephalopodpage.org/Sepiabandensis.php Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gmubeach June 2, 2008 Share June 2, 2008 So I guess hes going to have to buy fresh bait? like peelers and stuff thats going to be expesnive.... says not to feed them goldfish:( I see desease being a huge problem.... you can't take a north american food source and feed it to a cuddle fish with out the possiblity of picking up a pariste in addition I'd avoid a used tank encase it was treated with something:) anyway Peelers will run you about 1$ a piece ghost shrimp .25 cents a piece... I hope hes thought about what hes going to feed it.... seems like this is getting more and more complicated! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Lazar June 2, 2008 Share June 2, 2008 Sam, Are you able to place the auto topoff system in the sump? You'll probably get better results that way than if you put it in the display. You can calculate yourself what sort of salinity change to expect due to your auto topoff. I have my auotopoff sensor located in my sump, and it takes about an inch of evaporation to make the thing come on. The sump compartment with the sensor is small (about 8"x14", so 1" in water level is only about a half gallon. My salinity stays pegged at 35 ppm. If I had the sensor in the display tank, 1" would be nearly 4.5 gallons and that would cause salinity swings of 3.5ppm; which is too great a change IME for a reef tank. Jon I haven't really cosidered the peristaltic pump, however I will have an RO/DI system with one of those float-things in the tank, so I hope that will control it, plus I have a refractometer on the way, so I think I can maintain acurate salinity without too much fanciness, tell me if you think I'm wrong though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gmubeach June 2, 2008 Share June 2, 2008 I just want you to understand from a fishermen how hard its going to be to get this thing food...It sounds like it needs live food...peelers which are freshly molted blue crabs are VERY expensive the legal limit for a mature blue crab is 5 inches male and mature female which you can get down to about 4 inches tip to tip and the blue crabs aren't going to go quitly I would suspect that you would have to declaw the and stun them.... are you ready to rip the pincers off of a blue crab.... its a vicious thing to do to something... WE DO NOT HAVE Live shirmp in northern va other then a few fresh markets in fairfax and its about 15 dollars a pound... if your wondering its hard to locate a "live" market you can also get live turtles there and live frogs as well as all sorts of live foods.... but these places are unperditable in what they carry and you will have to be respectful of other cultures when going there. I shop at a few of them regularly for shirmp and other live seafood and sometimes they sell less then PREMIMUIM GRADE seafood your going to have to get used to asking where the seafood comes from and your going to need to know the diffrence between the diffrence foods... in addtion these guys eat crustactions how are you going to have a cleaning crew? Oh and the other thing about non traditional food markets is that they don't process seafood for long periods of time so you may have to go to the market every few days.. gas adds up my friend....If your intreasted in keeping something diffrent why don't you keep a spider crab:) those things are fun to watch eat bristle worms I'd let you come "harvest" my tank just so you could watch the menacing jaws of death! Do the research visit a "live market" see if you can stomach going there every week I've seen some things there that would turn any American Stomach... and I eat just about everything... be respectiful not all cultures are going to put up with you saying EWWWW to thier foods.... Ok so here is your best shot of getting Live shrimp and other crusteceans its a grocery store next to the UNIQUE thrift store on galllows road by the hospital go there and see if you can actually afford to feed this thing...fairfax area... Unique Thrift Store (703) 992-6560 2950 Gallows Rd, Falls Church, VA 22042 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OUsnakebyte June 2, 2008 Share June 2, 2008 I have absolutely no idea what I just read...??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gmubeach June 2, 2008 Share June 2, 2008 Did I ramble or something? I have a tendancy to do that. Anyway I was trying to show him how hard it is going to be to get him live food in the winter:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L8 2 RISE June 2, 2008 Author Share June 2, 2008 (edited) you can also visit tonmo.com and http://www.cephbase.utmb.edu/ and http://www.utmb.edu/nrcc/ It all depends on the size, when they hatch, they will eat isopods, then in about 1-2 weeks move to mysis, and will just eat that for quite a while, then they will eat shore shrimp or something similar, then a mix of shore shrimp and fidler crabs and fish, etc. If you buy eggs, you have more of a chance of getting the cuttles to eat frozen food, if you buy 3 month old cuttlefish from one of the few breeders, it will have already been weened onto the frozen foods. EDIT: sorry, I didn't see the posts on the second page, I intend to either get from the breeder, if I can afford it, or get eggs from the breeder and have the cuttles weened onto frozen foods before they start eating shore shrimp. If I do end up feeding live food, I've been told the best place to get it is from aquaculturestore.com. I could also try that grocery store, just to see what's there. I was planning on putting the auto top off in the sump, so I'll try the idea of a seperate copartement. Edited June 2, 2008 by L8 2 RISE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gmubeach June 2, 2008 Share June 2, 2008 Wow so your getting a baby one? That sounds problmatic I was thinking it was an adult and needed live crustecea.... so you can drop a dead shrimp in the tank and it will eat them? It made it seem like they wanted moving prey let me keep on reading! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
treesprite June 2, 2008 Share June 2, 2008 I have absolutely no idea what I just read...??? Just explaining the types of food that would be needed, how expensive they will be, how often purchased, how hard they may be to obtain, and gave a couple suggestions for where to find some things though with pre-cautionary note. I personally wouldn't want to spend that much time and money and effort to find food for one creature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gmubeach June 2, 2008 Share June 2, 2008 Wow seems like I did ramble a little bit:) I combined like 5 thoughts into one paragraph ... anyway how are you going to raise mysis shrimp and copods for a growing cepholopod I guess your going to have to invest in a refuguim... and then get supplimental pods from other wamas members? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L8 2 RISE June 2, 2008 Author Share June 2, 2008 wow! im getting lost Wow seems like I did ramble a little bit:) I combined like 5 thoughts into one paragraph ... anyway how are you going to raise mysis shrimp and copods for a growing cepholopod I guess your going to have to invest in a refuguim... and then get supplimental pods from other wamas members? yup, that's the idea, TMS also always has a constant supply of isopods so I could get from there as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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