1200 GPH External Pump

[OUsnakebyte]

What is the best 1200 GPH (+/- ~100 gph) return pump. I'm looking for the usual suspects when considering brand:

 

- Pressure rated - will be a return from sump after all...

- Noise - tank is in the living room - very important to me on this one

- I'd like to keep it 1" in and 1" out

- Don't want to have to oil it (like current Little Giant, which, quite honestly... I've never done )

- Cost - like to keep it under $200

 

Anyone have experience with the Iwakis, GenX, Blueline, etc.? Again, everything else being equal, I'd like to minimize he noise.

 

I have an Iwaki 70RLT (1600 gph) on a tank at work, and the noise coming from the fan is incredibly loud - not a big deal there though. But, this is a 70RLT; the smaller Iwakis I have a hard time telling if they are running!

 

Thoughts?

 

Cheers

Mike

[CHUBAKAH]

I use the Blueline 40HD-X , and while it's not exactly 1200gph it is very close considering any head pressure you may have.

 

40HD-X Specifications:

 

- Inlet: 1" MPT

- Outlet: 1" MPT

- Max Total Head (FT): 13

- Max Discharge (GPH) @ 0ft: 1,270

- Input (W): 130

- Length(in): 10.5

- Width(in): 4

- Height(in): 5.5

 

$169.95 and it's been working perfectly since day one.

[dbartco]

l like the pan world pc100xx

[Leishman]

I have a Gen-x and it is louder than dhoch with a mic in his hand

[shawns]

I have a Gen-x and it is louder than dhoch with a mic in his hand

 

no need for the quiet police when dave is on the mic!

[Almon]

I've been happy with the Little Giant rated at 1100gph at 5' head, and it's not that loud. So add a drop of oil in every year or two...

[Rascal]

You'd think after all this time we'd be able to find some reliable Db ratings for these pumps, right?

 

My tank is also in my living room.

I've used a Pan-World 100PX-X. With Dandy's mod (removing the fan and replacing it with a super quiet computer fan) it was tolerably quiet but . . .

 

Then I switched to a Sequence Dart. 1/2 as loud, if that.

 

The Sequence Snapper uses the same motor but a different prop, so the noise should be similar. You'd have to figure out which one would give you the flow you want given your head pressure. Either way, you could throttle either of them down if you wanted to to. Bottom line, they may be slightly over budget (what isn't in this hobby?) but if noise is the issue, these are QUIET pumps.

[OUsnakebyte]

Thanks everyone for their input - much appreciated.

 

After perusing all of the suggestions, I'm liking the idea of the Sequence Dart. At 3600 GPH (and only 160 watts!), I might be able to plumb in my dream-come-true... run everything off of one pump - return (through an Oceans Motions Super Squirt, eductors on the outputs = no powerheads), skimmer (AquaC 180 - replace the Mag 7) and UV (Current USA). The only other pump would be on my closed loop. Yes, the cost is slightly more than what I had wanted, but... meh... It's more fun than saving for retirement...

 

Now... the bulkhead on my sump is drilled for 3/4", and my return line is going to be 1". The Dart is 2" in and 1.5" out. Any issues there (other than finding the reducer bushings, which I already have)?

 

Also, should I tee off to the skimmer/UV with a 1.5" tee and reduce as necessary there, or should I reduce first (i.e. to a 3/4" tee), and plumb to the appropriate line...? I could do: 1.5x1.5x3/4 or 1x1x3/4. Just depends on where I put the bushing. Or, I could do a reducing wye - would that be any better/less restrictive?

 

Or, does it matter?

 

Am I wanting too much?

 

Thanks again,

Mike

Edited May 13, 2008 by OUsnakebyte

[davelin315]

The Sequence pumps need to have feeds that are the same size as the inlet. The Dart would need a 2" feed while it wouldn't matter how you made the return, otherwise you're asking for trouble with that and your pump life will be reduced. I have 2 barracudas and I don't think they remain that quiet after they have been in use for awhile. Mine have been running since December/January, one new one used, and they do make some noise. Honestly, my Dolphin Ampmaster makes less noise than they do, but it's not as efficient or as powerful. For me, noise doesn't matter as it's in-wall... you're more than welcome to stop by to hear what they sound like if you want. I'm eventually replacing my Dolphin with another Barracuda in my garage since I want more flow and noise doesn't matter. I'm not saying they're noisy, but the noise level was obvious once I enclosed the tank room. I had a housesitter who said that it was "white noise" when I didn't have the room fully enclosed. At some point in time I may try and do a sound comparison between the different pumps I've got, but of course, there would be tons of intervening variables in this. I would end up comparing a new Barracuda, an old Barracuda (from when they were a different name), an older model Barracuda, a Dolphin Ampmaster 3000, a Little Giant 4-MDQsomething or other, and a PanWorld 100 Psomething... Have you considered submersible or non-fan cooled pumps if you don't generate too much heat?

[Rascal]

Dave's right about the inlet on the Darts. Also, they are not pressure rated pumps. You can see the performance curve here. http://www.saltycritter.com/pumps/reeflo-water-pumps.htm Now, you can still get 1200 gph at 10 feet of head, which is why I thought it might work for you as a return pump. But I am not sure it would be the best pump to try to run everything off of. I would particularly worry about how it would deal with the back-pressure of the eductors and the spray-injector on your skimmer.

 

I also think this is related to why the Dart's are so quiet -- low velocity means low noise but also less power. I believe the Barrucuda is a pressure rated pump so it doesn't have those characteristics.

Edited May 13, 2008 by Rascal

[scott711]

Mike,

 

I really like the sequence pumps. All I hear is a humm.

[extreme_tooth_decay]

Mike,

 

I really like the sequence pumps. All I hear is a humm.

 

 

Same here. I got a pressure rated sequence pump and I have 12' of head. Works like a charm.

 

tim

[ErikS]

The Sequence pumps need to have feeds that are the same size as the inlet.

Actually a Dart can get by with 1.5" intake - not that the .5" matters much

 

The reason a dart is fairly quiet is that it's a slow speed pump, something like 1700rpm. This combined with a large impeller = high flow & low noise.

 

Can't help with pressure models, though if the RPM is lower they should be quieter.

[OUsnakebyte]

The Sequence pumps need to have feeds that are the same size as the inlet. The Dart would need a 2" feed while it wouldn't matter how you made the return, otherwise you're asking for trouble with that and your pump life will be reduced.

 

That's what I feared, and that really sucks... So, I'll basically have to plumb in a 2" U-tube (with a prime tee/valve) to pull water from the sump (or upgrade the sump altogether). It can be done, just more pvc...

 

 

Have you considered submersible or non-fan cooled pumps if you don't generate too much heat?

 

Well, I don't run a chiller, so heat exchange was also something I wanted to minimize. Running as few pumps/powerheads is the route I am trying to go. Plus, I like to keep things out of the sump for ease of maintenance as much as possible.

 

 

Dave's right about the inlet on the Darts. Also, they are not pressure rated pumps. Now, you can still get 1200 gph at 10 feet of head, which is why I thought it might work for you as a return pump. But I am not sure it would be the best pump to try to run everything off of. I would particularly worry about how it would deal with the back-pressure of the eductors and the spray-injector on your skimmer.

 

I also think this is related to why the Dart's are so quiet -- low velocity means low noise but also less power. I believe the Barrucuda is a pressure rated pump so it doesn't have those characteristics.

 

I'm starting to think my dream pump doesn't exist... :( But I'm not giving up yet!

 

Okay... I'm actually not requiring 1200GPH exactly. I only have three 1" drilled bulkheads for gravity drain, so I am only getting ~900 GPH of drainage (on a 120 gallon). I don't need the eductors to blow water out of the tank or anything, but I find that they dramatically increase flow/output on even the smallest of pumps. I have two eductors on a Blueline 40-HDX (not a pressure rated pump), and they crank out the flow.

 

Hmmm... am I missing the point of pressure rated here...? Could you elaborate on this:

 

"I would particularly worry about how it would deal with the back-pressure of the eductors and the spray-injector on your skimmer."

 

 

So, this Dart would almost certainly be valved back, unless I plumbed in a bypass leading back to the sump - very doable. I can keep the mag 7 for the skimmer if that doesn't work out. I think it would work fine for the UV though, don't you?

 

My other consideration was the Blueline 40-HDX. Like I mentioned, I use those here at work, and like them fine.

 

 

Actually a Dart can get by with 1.5" intake - not that the .5" matters much

 

Actually, it does make some difference. I was just over looking at some of the 2" vs 1.5" pvc inventory, and there is a world of difference in size...

 

Thanks again, everyone.

 

Cheers

Mike

[treesprite]

Not a GenX - the man is right, the thing is extremely noisy. Next time I'm getting something that I know won't make me have to turn up the tv volumn.

[davelin315]

Hey Mike, I don't believe that the eductors create back pressure, after all, they work simply on blowing water through an open space to capture more flow, when you shut them off, I don't think that they create a vacuumm or anything. Now, that said, I do believe that they reduce the outlet size to increase flow, but I don't see that creating a whole lot of back-pressure.

 

As far as a submersible pump, you can run some of them out of water and therefore lose some of that heat transfer. Something like a Mag pump can be run out of water in-line instead of submersible and I would think that would remove some of that heat to the air instead (although there would still be some).

 

I have a PanWorld if you'd like to try it out. I'm holding on to it to sell it one day, but it's brand new if you want to water test to see how noisy it is.

[Almon]

Hey Mike, I don't believe that the eductors create back pressure, after all, they work simply on blowing water through an open space to capture more flow, when you shut them off

 

Actually, that's exactly how they work. They build back pressure (high pressure zone through the center) which creates a low pressure zone around the eductor.

 

HOW EDUCTORS WORK:

As the solution is pumped through an eductor's orifice, a low pressure area is created that acts to pull solution from behind the bell shape of the eductor and direct the solution out of the bell end.

 

I have one that I purchased for $25. The original intent the inductor/eductor was to mix huge vats of liquid and to amplify the volume being pushed through the device for mixing.

 

I couldn't use it because I have anti-siphon holes drilled at the waterline, and when the eductor was installed, it certainly pushed more water, but it also built up a lot of back pressure which expressed itself through the anti-siphon holes. I still have it if anyone is interested, 1".

Edited May 14, 2008 by Almon

[OUsnakebyte]

Well, what I'm wondering is this - if I get a pump that is not "pressure rated," what will happen if I run eductors on the outputs (and possibly a skimmer)? Am I going to damage the pump/reduce its life in the long run? What are other (if any) risks?

 

I guess what I am fessing up to is... I'm a little ignorant on what it means to be pressure rated and the consequences on using a pump that is or is not in various applications...

 

Mike

Edited May 14, 2008 by OUsnakebyte

[Almon]

I should have provided more info: http://troop906.219.com/website/Misc/hello...enthusiasts.htm

 

As a result of a posting on Reef Central web site, this page was added on March 5, 2003.

 

Perhaps you know the benefits of eductors in your tank -- Solution eductors mounted on the discharge pump piping will increase the flow agitation provided by your current pump by 2 to 3 times while your pump draws less current.

 

 

Penductors are mounted on the discharge side of the pump and must be submerged to move (educt) additional liquid - once you get close to the "best efficiency" point of 10 PSI (or 23 feet if looking a pump performance curve) you can pump about 7 GPM and educt about 28 GPM to produce a movement of 35 GPM per eductor. Penductors can be used with pressures as low as 3.5 PSI (8 feet) with reduced flows.

 

The flows above are using a Penductor. This eductor uses an orifice (round hole) of .3" diameter. This restriction causes a pressure drop of the solution - the energy is transferred into solution velocity. This velocity is transferred back into pressure that drags (educts) additional solution through the bell shaped nozzle of the eductor. (If you followed all of that good for you - if not - think of it as magic.)

 

for 2005. Penductors are now available in a black color polypropylene material with 3/4" male or female threads. Please specify as BLACK to avoid the standard blue color. 1" is not available in black until October 2005.

for 2005. Penductors are now available with .375 orifice for higher flow rates. Same short profile as the standard .30" orifice. Only 3 7/8" long.

 

Now, the question - how many eductors do I use?

 

Answer - depends upon your pump - The bigger the pump, the more eductors you can use.

 

Now my question - If your pump came with a performance curve, look at the flow in "gallons per minute" when the pump is producing 23 feet (same as 10 PSI) and divide this number by 7 - (the ideal flow rate is 7 GPM at 10 PSI) - THIS IS THE MINIMUM NUMBER OF EDUCTORS . We have however experienced very good results with lower pressures.

 

For you Iwaki guys, I have the (top secret) performance curves and will do the math you. Also listed are the horsepower of each pump. (HP x .75 = kW)

 

MD (or WMD) 6, 20, 20RZT - Give this pump to your kids - not big enough.

 

30RZT or 30 RXT - (1/16 HP) - you will notice improvement with one eductor however you are still on the small side.

 

40 RXT - (1/12 HP) - maybe two - however you are on the low pressure side but will see solution movement improvement.

 

55RT - ( 1/9 HP) - definitely you would really charge one - you might what to distribute the wealth and use two.

 

70RT - (1/4 HP) - you will drive two or three eductors. v

 

70RZ - (1/4 HP) - use two - the pump runs out of flow beyond 10 GPM - This however is a really good pump to utilize the eductor principle because it produces high pressure at low flow. With two .30" orifice eductors, the pump will go from moving 11 GPM to 50 GPM.

 

100RT - (1/3 HP) definitely three will get very excited - four would probably be best to prevent too much in one area.

 

For the above pumps I would suggest installing a ball valve between the pump and the eductor (probably just one if you are using two or more) just as a control device to maybe slow things down if the eductors / Penductors work too good.

 

What if I don't have "a pressure rated pump" or 10 PSI - will they still work? Yes, however the fan angle will decrease and the extra solution educted will also decrease but amazing results will still be realized. Low pressure chart. (All pumps produce pressure otherwise they wouldn't be able to move liquid through the pipe - let's call them a low pressure pump, OK?)

 

What kind of results should I expect from Penductors ? You should normally see an increase of solution movement of 2 to 3 times compared to open flow return pipe outlets. This does however assume a flow rate of 4 1/2 to 10 GPM for each Penductor. Knowing the pressure and using the flow charts will assure these results.

 

What about all of the other devices on the discharge of my pump - filter, strainers, Sea Swirls? The water will need to be restricted through these other devices to allow pressure for the eductors. Use control (ball) valves to provide the additional backpressure that will be required to provide adequate pressure for the eductors. Using Penductors on return lines with filters and strainers is OK but I would avoid using on the discharge of a Sea Swirl. (Sea Swirl is not designed to be used with a down stream pressure device such as a Penductor.)

 

A word to the wise:

 

Almost all pumps are also rated in maximum GPH. This flow will only be achieved with near zero pressure. Do Not use this number to determine the amount of flow that you will push through the eductor.

 

Question - What eductors do I buy - The material of choice is polypropylene. 3/4" and 1" threads are now available in a black color. All Penductors are standard with the .3" orifice so it is your choice as connection size between

 

PE 3/4 FB - 3/4" female threads

PE 3/4 MB - 3/4" male threads

PE 1 MB - 1" male threads - (now available in black)

All are the same price. Please specify if .375 orifice or black color is desired.

 

How much do they cost - $ 25.00 each - free shipping to US or Ca for four or more. Quantity discounts are available for 10 or more for clubs or retail locations.

 

Can I make my own? Home made version

[OUsnakebyte]

I have a PanWorld if you'd like to try it out. I'm holding on to it to sell it one day, but it's brand new if you want to water test to see how noisy it is.

 

I really appreciate the offer Dave, but I think I am leaning toward this Dart.

 

 

Now, reading Almon's post (thanks, by the way), it sounds like the Dart might still work for me needs. I'm just going to have to get creative with that massive 2" pvc under my stand in a limited space.

 

Interesting point about not using an eductor on the output of a sea swirl. I have just that very thing on a 1" sea swirl at work that just died. I wonder if that was the cause. It had been running about a year (maybe 1.5 years) with the eductor until one day it just didn't swirl any more...?

 

Thanks everyone.

Mike