Eliminating Water Changes

[Coral Hind]

Here is another article Wade, a WAMAS member, did years ago about the topic. It also shows to me that a larger size change does a better job.

 

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2004/4/short

 

[YHSublime]

Here is another article Wade, a WAMAS member, did years ago about the topic. It also shows to me that a larger size change does a better job.

 

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2004/4/short

 

Thanks for sharing. I've always thought it best to spread them out, glad to see some science behind it.

[Neto]

I dont do a single WC, only dose cal, alk, mag & vinegar

[Origami]

 

Here is another article Wade, a WAMAS member, did years ago about the topic. It also shows to me that a larger size change does a better job.

 

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2004/4/short

I remember this article. That was Wade? Cool.

 

Sent from my phone

 

 

[Origami]

I dont do a single WC, only dose cal, alk, mag & vinegar

And you're this month's tank of the month, too! Have you not done a single water change on this tank since 2009?

 

Sent from my phone

 

[paul b]

 

 You've got to admit, it does change and you're probably doing things today that you weren't doing 40 years ago.

 

 

 

One thing I don't have to do now, is comb my hair.

 

A tank can go easily 4 or 5 years with no water changes, as many tanks do.  There are to many variables to think about.

But as I said, if you change water every month, and your tank looks noticably better after a water change, then your tank is declining in between water changes and it is on the verge of crashing.  The bacteria in the tank should process all the wastes in between changes.  If they are not, there is something wrong.  I change some water about 5 times a year and I notice no differences after a change.  Everything looks good before the change and after the change.   My bacteria know their jobs and do it well.  I also add bacteria from the sea just to keep them from getting bored.

[Origami]

I was able to go about six months before noticing issues. But it was not a fair test, really, since am building out another section of the basement. It's away from the tank, but close enough for drywall dust to have coated the shields on my lights.

 

Sent from my phone

 

 

[YHSublime]

And you're this month's tank of the month, too! Have you not done a single water change on this tank since 2009? Sent from my phone

 

I would be interested to hear the answer to this.

[AlanM]

Wasn't there a concern about 2-part dosing and adding magnesium via magnesium sulfate and sulfate building up in the absence of water changes? 

 

That's what I remember from the Randy article about just 2-part dosing and no water changes.

[Origami]

Wasn't there a concern about 2-part dosing and adding magnesium via magnesium sulfate and sulfate building up in the absence of water changes? 

 

That's what I remember from the Randy article about just 2-part dosing and no water changes.

I can't recall if it's just sulfate, but what happens with two-part dosing over the long haul is an ionic imbalance is created. The reason behind this is that we typically dose three chemicals: Calcium Chloride to supplement calcium; Sodium Bicarbonate or Sodium Carbonate to supplement alkalinity; and magnesium chloride /+ magnesium sulfate to supplement magnesium. In the process of dosing, we then add additional ions that are not wanted / needed (but are not harmful): Choride, Sodium, Chloride, and Sulfate, for those four additives just mentioned. These three ions are the three major ions (by weight) in salt water (see the chart below). So, proportionally, the increase is relatively small, but there is an increase and, over time, it changes the proportional ionic content in the saltwater. That's one reason why, in dosing magnesium, he recommends dosing a mix of mag chloride and mag sulfate - to keep the relative balance of these three major ions as stable as possible over the long haul.

 

[Neto]

And you're this month's tank of the month, too! Have you not done a single water change on this tank since 2009? Sent from my phone

 

Well no hehe, I started with no water changes around 7 months ago.. I also add water whenever I sell & bag frags but that's maybe every 2 months or so...

[paul b]

 

 

I can't recall if it's just sulfate, but what happens with two-part dosing over the long haul is an ionic imbalance is created.

 

Tom, I love the chart. 

So your saying that in the 42 years my tank has been running along with the aprox. 210 partial water changes I performed in that time, there should be an ionic imbalance in my tank?  Maybe there is and maybe that ionic balance is good for the tank, maybe it kills ich or makes the fish spawn.    I don't know and I can't see it being dangerous as I have not noticed any negative actions.  Dr. Schmeck  has always talked about metal accumulation in tanks causing OTS.  I have always disagreed with him on that and I don't really care what the research shows as I have a physical tank to prove it, not just a lot of scientific research from people who rarely, if ever even own a fish tank.  Also copper has been used in my tank for probably 10 years and as far as I know, it is still in there someplace.  It doesn't seem to do anything although research says my tank is a time bomb and some day that copper will come out of solution and kill everything.   Maybe in 10 years it will but I will be senile and won't know a dead fish from a live one.   My tank is also a time bomb because I don't quarantine so sometimes I am afraid to walk past my tank because it may explode.    I hate that word, time bomb and nitrate factory.  Two stupid phraises we should drop.

I also hate in scientific papers when at the end they list all the references they quoted to write the paper.  If they are writing about their research using their ideas, why do they have to reference other people?  Maybe those other guys made it up or just wrote their paper by referencing some other guy, and he referenced some other guy.  Maybe the first guy referenced something I wrote 40 years ago after I came back from a wild boat party and didn't know what I was saying.  Could be.

 

References:

Mother Teresa

Mick Jagger

Garfunkle

Lady gaga

Ralph Cramden

Saint Peter

[Origami]

Paul, the question asked was about two-part dosing. It's pretty simple math actually that demonstrates the long term sustained effects of two-part dosing without reasonable water changes. It has nothing to do with metals, so I don't know why you're headed that way again.  Conceptually, it's very easy to understand. You're adding additional sodium, chloride, and sulfate ions each time you dose regular two-part. The system is consuming the added calcium, carbonate, and magnesium ions that are replenished during the same additions, but the added sodium, chloride, and sulfate accumulate. Thus, their proportion grows and the relative proportion of what remains grows smaller. It takes a while for this to happen because the ppm of sodium, chloride, and sulfate are very high (some higher than 20,000 ppm as I recall), but it does happen.

 

However, regular water changes can blunt this effect. You perform regular water changes.

 

That chart is ancient. It has data that's older than even your tank and, I think, goes back to even before you were born. It's shows the relative ion content in "average" sea water. The actual ppm for each varies around the globe and with depth, but it's reasonably accurate in chart form. It's certainly qualitatively accurate.

[paul b]

Tom old buddy, you have to read the way I think, I know my mind gets all wrapped up in other stuff but I do dose 2 part calcium and alk and have been for years and I do less water changes than most people, that is why I brought that up.

The thing about the metals is there just to show that some things published by respected authors and scientists is not always correct even though their research says it is.

 

That chart is ancient. It has data that's older than even your tank and, I think, goes back to even before you were born.

 

That is true, I remember reading about it just before they took this picture of me and my first girlfriend.

 

[Origami]

D***, except for the hair, you've hardly changed! Cars were big back then. So what was her name? Was this Brooklyn or one of the boroughs?

 

Just because some scientist writes something doesn't always make it right. Peer-reviewed papers in the right journals, though, garner a lot more respect. Even then, a lot post results to research and make or adjust hypothesis, and sometimes make comfortable explanations, based on that data. Papers provide a trail of advancement along certain lines. Rarely is a paper the endpoint in any line of research, but it's a communication intended to allow the rest of the community to consider ideas, replicate results, and build upon whatever bit they've added to the puzzle board.

[AlanM]

Since this thread is now also about iron in the tank as well as doing water changes, I recently had a GFO incident in my shiny new tank and blew little iron oxide particles all over the sump.  Some made it through the under/over baffle and through the return pump to be sprayed over the rocks and sand. 

 

I know iron in the water doesn't hurt corals.  Do iron oxide particles give turbo snails or conchs (the two forms of life so far in my tank except for algae and pods) a tummy ache or a bad taste so they avoid the algae growing around those particles?

[Origami]

^^ I've never been too partial to the taste of snails myself so I can't tell you if it gives them a bad, or worse, taste.   

 

Depending on the size of the snail, they may find it difficult to swallow a GFO pellet. Their mouth parts are normally more suited towards rasping and sucking in smaller particles. If you're seeing that they're avoiding areas around the pellet, then there probably is something about them that they don't like. It could be just about anything, I suppose. Interesting question. Maybe people can sprinkle a little used GFO around the garden to fend off garden snails and slugs.

[paul b]

D***, except for the hair, you've hardly changed! Cars were big back then. So what was her name? Was this Brooklyn or one of the boroughs?

 

 

That was in Flushing Queens, where the NY Worlds Fair was in the 60s.  That was in back of my dad's 1947 Pontiac in about 1953.  Her name was Georgia.

 

 

 Since this thread is now also about iron in the tank as well as doing water changes,

 

 

 

Yeah, sorry about that.

I have dropped rust in my tank many times and I never noticed any ill effects.  I once found a "rock" in the sea and brought it home to put in a bucket of water because it was loaded with shrimp and amphipods.  I forgot about it for 3 or 4 months in my garage.  Then I noticed it and removed the "rock" that turned out to be a large chunk of iron, probably a pulley from an old ship. It weighed about 8lbs and was in 5 gallons of water.  About 1/2" of rust formed on the bottom of that bucket but I never saw healthier looking amphipods, snails and shrimp.  I couldn't believe anything could live with that much rust.  Ever since then, I have no fear of iron, rust, Paris Hilton or anything else.  I often put rust in my tank although I don't recommend it or know if it is good or bad and I have no scientific papers to reference as no one has an old enough tank to write about it and I would not imagine anyone would put rust in their tank.  My tank is and has always been an experiment so I can do it and if it crashes tomorrow from rust, I will have learned something. 

[surf&turf]

Thought this was interesting...

 

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2301583

[Coral Hind]

Thought this was interesting...

 

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2301583

 

That's a nice tank. It looks like he changes over 60% of his water every year and times it with gravel cleaning. That's a lot less than most but still not "free" of water changes. Compared to most tanks I also think his has a light bio load which I'm sure is a key factor to the tank looking so good.